Seven Subway Line

[Andrew]

Gateway Project has no NEPA process in place. It has had a conceptual design and engineering done in addition to the Tunnel Box. nothing more. It cannot use of the ARC NEPA because the routing is different. The only NEPA that has happened is for the Tunnel Box, nothing else. The process has not started yet and is yet to be funded. So let us not get ahead of ourselves here. To keep claiming that Gateway is built on ARC, at least the tunnel part, is simply untrue. Specific question on that matter to the Chief Engineer has been answered in the negative. The previous work is being used for Portal Bridge, and that was not part of ARC.

NJT does not decide anything. NJ State does, if anyone does. And the agency involved may very well be PATH and not NJT.

Anyway all this is speculation so far afield that we could be spinning whatever story.

I don't think that the design team of Gateway thinks that Penn Station South is a future phase. Even last week at the NYMTC presentation on Gateway it was mentioned that they would not build the tunnels if Penn Station South is not built. They could not justify the cost of the tunnel without Penn South. That has been the position of the Gateway designers all along. Now of course things could change, but that is the current situation as far as we were informed by the presenter.

1. Would the new De Blasio Administration support Seven Extension to Secaucus or Amtrak's Gateway Project?

2. Are you saying that if Penn Station South can not be acquired, than Seven Extension to Secaucus will be the solution to properly deal with Trans-Hudson Congestion?

 

[jis]

1. I don't know

2. No

 

[Andrew]

1. But, since Amtrak's Tunnel Box is currently under construction, does that mean that Gateway will probably get constructed before Seven to Secaucus?

2. In my opinion, bus riders to the PABT still have a good way to get to the East Side by transferring to the Shuttle or Seven Subway, or by taking the E train to East 53rd street; this is why I am more supportive of Gateway than I am of Seven Extension to Secaucus.

 

[Ryan]

1. Who knows.

2. Ok?

 

[AlanB]

Second Avenue Sagas, 11/29/13:

Symbolic support from New Jersey for a 7 line extension

As Mayor Bloomberg’s last month in office dawns upon us this weekend, the plans to send the 7 train to New Jersey will likely exit the political arena along with hizzoner. Despite some feasibility studies, the proposal hasn’t generated much support from others on our side of the Hudson River, and the MTA has bigger, New York-centric fish to fry.

More here.

 

[Andrew]

Would this mean that once Bloomberg leaves in January, that NYC will likely focus more on Amtrak's Gateway Project?

 

[jis]

I can almost bet NYC won't focus on anything to do with Gateway for a long time, if ever. It will focus on what is already on their plate. ESA and SAS will take priority over everything. After the current SAS segment is completed there will be demand for completing the downtown segment. Also, I would not expect NYC to do anything about Gateway if at all. It would actually be amazing if it even comes around to funding the rest of Moynihan, which is not part of Gateway. But they are way more likely to do that than get involved in Gateway.

For the same reason that NJ is ambivalent about Gateway, NYC is even more ambivalent about it, just like they were with ARC. There is really not much in it for NYC directly, though indirectly it is a huge boon for it potentially. But for now at best it is a New York State matter as part of the overall NEC Commission related funding. LIRR's involvement as 50% operator of NYPS will remain in place, and MTA's involvement in NYPS will be limited to how to get Hudson and New Haven Line trains into NYPS. Rest of it - read all of Gateway - will primarily be for Amtrak and NJT to figure out.

In summary it is going to be a long and hard slog to get Gateway done. But the guys working the Gateway (who I personally know and have a lot of admiration for) are very capable and diligent guys and they will keep slogging at it. However, even there, the priority for the Amtrak guy who is in charge at present is roughly speaking in the order NJ HSR, Portal Bridge, and then Secaucus to NYPS + NYPS expansion. I would not expect NEPA work to begin until about 2015 at the earliest (optimistically). The rest happens after that.

This is not to say that it will be any easier to get any other alternative scheme done either. And as Alan has pointed out, any other scheme does not have a team or a person assigned to it yet either. I say any other scheme, because there are three different 7 to NJ schemes, and one mainline from Hoboken to Manhattan scheme kicking around, if you eliminate the one about light rail through Lincoln Tunnel + 42nd St Light Rail thing.

Anyhow, some might find this article interesting and informative:

http://mobile.philly.com/business/?wss=/philly/business/transportation/&id=233687561

 

[Andrew]

1.

I can almost bet NYC won't focus on anything to do with Gateway for a long time, if ever. It will focus on what is already on their plate. ESA and SAS will take priority over everything. After the current SAS segment is completed there will be demand for completing the downtown segment. Also, I would not expect NYC to do anything about Gateway if at all. It would actually be amazing if it even comes around to funding the rest of Moynihan, which is not part of Gateway. But they are way more likely to do that than get involved in Gateway.

For the same reason that NJ is ambivalent about Gateway, NYC is even more ambivalent about it, just like they were with ARC. There is really not much in it for NYC directly, though indirectly it is a huge boon for it potentially. But for now at best it is a New York State matter as part of the overall NEC Commission related funding. LIRR's involvement as 50% operator of NYPS will remain in place, and MTA's involvement in NYPS will be limited to how to get Hudson and New Haven Line trains into NYPS. Rest of it - read all of Gateway - will primarily be for Amtrak and NJT to figure out.

In summary it is going to be a long and hard slog to get Gateway done. But the guys working the Gateway (who I personally know and have a lot of admiration for) are very capable and diligent guys and they will keep slogging at it. However, even there, the priority for the Amtrak guy who is in charge at present is roughly speaking in the order NJ HSR, Portal Bridge, and then Secaucus to NYPS + NYPS expansion. I would not expect NEPA work to begin until about 2015 at the earliest (optimistically). The rest happens after that.

This is not to say that it will be any easier to get any other alternative scheme done either. And as Alan has pointed out, any other scheme does not have a team or a person assigned to it yet either. I say any other scheme, because there are three different 7 to NJ schemes, and one mainline from Hoboken to Manhattan scheme kicking around, if you eliminate the one about light rail through Lincoln Tunnel + 42nd St Light Rail thing.

Anyhow, some might find this article interesting and informative:

http://mobile.philly.com/business/?wss=/philly/business/transportation/&id=233687561

I can almost bet NYC won't focus on anything to do with Gateway for a long time, if ever. It will focus on what is already on their plate. ESA and SAS will take priority over everything. After the current SAS segment is completed there will be demand for completing the downtown segment. Also, I would not expect NYC to do anything about Gateway if at all. It would actually be amazing if it even comes around to funding the rest of Moynihan, which is not part of Gateway. But they are way more likely to do that than get involved in Gateway.

For the same reason that NJ is ambivalent about Gateway, NYC is even more ambivalent about it, just like they were with ARC. There is really not much in it for NYC directly, though indirectly it is a huge boon for it potentially. But for now at best it is a New York State matter as part of the overall NEC Commission related funding. LIRR's involvement as 50% operator of NYPS will remain in place, and MTA's involvement in NYPS will be limited to how to get Hudson and New Haven Line trains into NYPS. Rest of it - read all of Gateway - will primarily be for Amtrak and NJT to figure out.

In summary it is going to be a long and hard slog to get Gateway done. But the guys working the Gateway (who I personally know and have a lot of admiration for) are very capable and diligent guys and they will keep slogging at it. However, even there, the priority for the Amtrak guy who is in charge at present is roughly speaking in the order NJ HSR, Portal Bridge, and then Secaucus to NYPS + NYPS expansion. I would not expect NEPA work to begin until about 2015 at the earliest (optimistically). The rest happens after that.

This is not to say that it will be any easier to get any other alternative scheme done either. And as Alan has pointed out, any other scheme does not have a team or a person assigned to it yet either. I say any other scheme, because there are three different 7 to NJ schemes, and one mainline from Hoboken to Manhattan scheme kicking around, if you eliminate the one about light rail through Lincoln Tunnel + 42nd St Light Rail thing.

Anyhow, some might find this article interesting and informative:

http://mobile.philly.com/business/?wss=/philly/business/transportation/&id=233687561

1. But wasn't it true that Amtrak recently awarded some engineering Gateway Contracts to AECOM and Parsons Brinckerhoff?

2. If NYC won't fund Gateway, than how can Amtrak realistically receive so much funding from the Federal Government and the Port Authority?

 

[Tokkyu40]

AlanB-"Why would NYC want to pay to move New Jersey residents?"

Because northern New Jersey has become a suburb of NYC. A large number of workers live in Jersey and commute across the river, so New York has a vested interest to see that they can get to work reliably and efficiently.

I see either of these projects as a joint operation of the two states. Although coordinating two transit authorities might be difficult, considering how hard it is to get one bureaucracy to work with itself.

 

[AlanB]

AlanB-"Why would NYC want to pay to move New Jersey residents?"

Because northern New Jersey has become a suburb of NYC. A large number of workers live in Jersey and commute across the river, so New York has a vested interest to see that they can get to work reliably and efficiently.

I see either of these projects as a joint operation of the two states. Although coordinating two transit authorities might be difficult, considering how hard it is to get one bureaucracy to work with itself.

Until those living in NNJ pay all their taxes to NY State & City, NY has no interest in seeing that they can get here to work. NY State & NY City would be better off if they could get more people from Long Island, Westchester, Rockland, etc., to come into the city to take those jobs that people in NNJ currently have. So unless NNJ decides to succeed from NJ and join NY State, something I think highly unlikely, again NY really has no interest in making things better and easier for NJ residents to take their taxes across the river.

This is not to say that NYC's MTA wouldn't run #7 service to NJ provided that NJ pays 100% of the costs to operate it. And while you might get some help building such an extension from NY, I wouldn't expect much help. In fact, technically NY was contributing nothing towards ARC. Yes, via the Port Authority, NY State was sort of helping out. But not directly. But NY has much bigger things that it needs to be doing for it's own residents before it worries about helping out NJ residents.

 

[Bob Dylan]

That'll Teach People to Live in Jersey and Sponge Off New York and the Apple! Let 'em Walk or Drive to the City Or Move to New York! :lol:

 

[Andrew]

AlanB-"Why would NYC want to pay to move New Jersey residents?"

Because northern New Jersey has become a suburb of NYC. A large number of workers live in Jersey and commute across the river, so New York has a vested interest to see that they can get to work reliably and efficiently.

I see either of these projects as a joint operation of the two states. Although coordinating two transit authorities might be difficult, considering how hard it is to get one bureaucracy to work with itself.

Until those living in NNJ pay all their taxes to NY State & City, NY has no interest in seeing that they can get here to work. NY State & NY City would be better off if they could get more people from Long Island, Westchester, Rockland, etc., to come into the city to take those jobs that people in NNJ currently have. So unless NNJ decides to succeed from NJ and join NY State, something I think highly unlikely, again NY really has no interest in making things better and easier for NJ residents to take their taxes across the river.

This is not to say that NYC's MTA wouldn't run #7 service to NJ provided that NJ pays 100% of the costs to operate it. And while you might get some help building such an extension from NY, I wouldn't expect much help. In fact, technically NY was contributing nothing towards ARC. Yes, via the Port Authority, NY State was sort of helping out. But not directly. But NY has much bigger things that it needs to be doing for it's own residents before it worries about helping out NJ residents.

I disagree. Improving Trans-Hudson Rail Capacity is also NY's responsibility. Whether it's building the Gateway Project or Seven Extension to Secaucus, both NY and NJ are in this together. However, if nothing gets done, I believe that NJ will be the one who faces future higher levels of economic troubles (hence why NJ currently has one of the highest unemployment rates within the United States).

NY is already doing a ton of transportation expansion projects with two subway extensions as well as East Side Access. If the Seven Extension to Secaucus gets built, the MTA would probably not pay. Rather, NYC would foot the bill, just as they did with the Seven Extension to the Javits Center. (The Bloomberg Administration issued bonds, and the MTA will operate the new subway service when it opens). Which ever project gets chosen, both NJ and NY are in this together!

 

[Ryan]

You're free to disagree all you want, but there's no motivation whatsoever for NY to spend money to help people that live in NJ.

 

[Andrew]

You're free to disagree all you want, but there's no motivation whatsoever for NY to spend money to help people that live in NJ.

Than how do we get the state of NJ to fund Seven Subway Extension or Gateway Project?

 

[Trogdor]

You're free to disagree all you want, but there's no motivation whatsoever for NY to spend money to help people that live in NJ.

Than how do we get the state of NJ to fund Seven Subway Extension or Gateway Project?

That's New Jersey's problem to figure out.

 

[Andrew]

You're free to disagree all you want, but there's no motivation whatsoever for NY to spend money to help people that live in NJ.

Than how do we get the state of NJ to fund Seven Subway Extension or Gateway Project?

That's New Jersey's problem to figure out.

I disagree. I am a NY citizen, and I rely on NJ's infrastructure to travel--including earlier today. As I said before, both NY and NJ are in this together...

 

[Ryan]

Why is it in NY's interest to make sure that you can get to New Jersey?

 

[Andrew]

Because tourists from other parts of the Northeast come to NYC to spend money--and many of these tourists commute by train through the Hudson Tunnels' Bottleneck!!

Also, people who work in NYC but live in NJ are employed by businesses that pay NYC property tax; the trans-hudson capacity issue is BOTH NYC and NJ's problem.

 

[Ryan]

NY would be better served if those commuters chose to live in NY and paid NY income tax.

 

[AlanB]

Because tourists from other parts of the Northeast come to NYC to spend money--and many of these tourists commute by train through the Hudson Tunnels' Bottleneck!!

Tourists won't benefit from a #7 extension. Gateway, yes. But not the #7. Tourists would get more benefit from a full length 2nd Avenue subway.

Also, people who work in NYC but live in NJ are employed by businesses that pay NYC property tax; the trans-hudson capacity issue is BOTH NYC and NJ's problem.

And as I said earlier, and Ryan repeated, NY would get more benefit if those people in NJ couldn't get to NY to work anymore and therefore decided to move to NY. Or by having people already living in NY get those jobs, instead of people living in NJ.

NY benefits some from Gateway; but an extended #7 really doesn't provide any benefit to NY. Or at least a lessor benefit than if all those jobs went to people living in NY.

This is the same reason that CT pays the MTA to run Metro North trains into CT. NY doesn't pay for that. If NY had to pay for it, service would end at Port Chester.

 

[Andrew]

Although I do agree that Gateway is better than the Seven Subway Extension to Secaucus, both would help NYC compete better in the regional economy.

You stated, "...And therefore decided to move to NY."

But guess what, many people who live in NJ are planning on staying in NJ--not moving to NY!!

 

[Ryan]

That's their problem, not New York's

 

[Ispolkom]

In some places Guest_Andrew's logic does prevail. Minnesota is building a bridge to make it easier to live in Wisconsin and commute to work in the Twin Cities. The project has never made sense to me.

 

[jerichowhiskey]

Although I do agree that Gateway is better than the Seven Subway Extension to Secaucus, both would help NYC compete better in the regional economy.

You stated, "...And therefore decided to move to NY."

But guess what, many people who live in NJ are planning on staying in NJ--not moving to NY!!

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I can argue the same for Staten Island foregoing the ferry or driving for a one shot SIR ride into lower Manhattan or Brooklyn (where that unfinished tunnel lay dormant). At least in this case, any rise in property values and other taxes will be in NY. Yet, this may never happen for a looong time.

It's clear from the articles about the Secaucus extension that it is for real estate developers to make bank on the NJ side where it is the government that foots most of the bill in the end.

 

[Andrew]

Although I do agree that Gateway is better than the Seven Subway Extension to Secaucus, both would help NYC compete better in the regional economy.

You stated, "...And therefore decided to move to NY."

But guess what, many people who live in NJ are planning on staying in NJ--not moving to NY!!

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I can argue the same for Staten Island foregoing the ferry or driving for a one shot SIR ride into lower Manhattan or Brooklyn (where that unfinished tunnel lay dormant). At least in this case, any rise in property values and other taxes will be in NY. Yet, this may never happen for a looong time.

It's clear from the articles about the Secaucus extension that it is for real estate developers to make bank on the NJ side where it is the government that foots most of the bill in the end.

But, the real estate developers are also supportive of the Gateway Program. After all, they are allowing the delay of construction of the one of the Hudson Yards' skyscrapers for Amtrak's "Tunnel Box."