Safety Issues

[NorthEncantoGirl]

There was a disturbing interview on NPR's "Fresh Air" today about train travel:

http://www.npr.org/2...-more-dangerous

It's about a book, "Attention All Passengers" and parts of the interview was chilling.

In it, the author talked not only about the post-dereg hassles that have crept into the flying experience, but also of the real safety compromises that can seriously endanger people.

Has Amtrak had to weather a similar firestorm?

I was counting myself lucky that I had chosen the train for my vacation. As I was listening, I was keeping an ear out for parallels.

In this forum, most of the time people, when they grumble, kvetch about service; from what I can tell, there's not a lot of talk (good or bad) about safety. Very comforting, actually. (I can live with a surly attendant; I can't enjoy my trip thinking about worst case scenarios) This author was talking about a real degrading of safety in airplanes. Has there been anything like this on Amtrak. Has their safety suffered in recent years, or has it remained stable?

Any insight is appreciated!

Lace

 

[RampWidget]

There was a disturbing interview on NPR's "Fresh Air" today about train travel:

http://www.npr.org/2...-more-dangerous

It's about a book, "Attention All Passengers" and parts of the interview was chilling.

In it, the author talked not only about the post-dereg hassles that have crept into the flying experience, but also of the real safety compromises that can seriously endanger people.

Has Amtrak had to weather a similar firestorm?

I was counting myself lucky that I had chosen the train for my vacation. As I was listening, I was keeping an ear out for parallels.

In this forum, most of the time people, when they grumble, kvetch about service; from what I can tell, there's not a lot of talk (good or bad) about safety. Very comforting, actually. (I can live with a surly attendant; I can't enjoy my trip thinking about worst case scenarios) This author was talking about a real degrading of safety in airplanes. Has there been anything like this on Amtrak. Has their safety suffered in recent years, or has it remained stable?

Any insight is appreciated!

Lace

Lace,

Passenger train travel, including Amtrak, is generally the safest mode of travel available. Safety on Amtrak (and on the host RRs) is a primary focus of the way they operate, and the US DOT statistics back that up. I have no qualms about my family traveling via Amtrak and have never experienced a safety problem, other than the one trip I took several years ago on the Crescent and we struck a trespasser north of Anniston, Ala.

Please enjoy your travels!

 

[Texan Eagle]

Sorry to spoil your party but that book to me looks like a work of someone who had a bitter experience with airlines for whatever reasons. Yes times are tough and everyone, including airlines and Amtrak for that matter, are hard pressed to find every possible means of cost reduction and revenue maximization but I would take with a big pinch of salt the claim that airplanes are becoming unsafe. If airlines were indeed cutting corners in maintenance sooner or later their lid would be blown off with a few nasty accidents resulting in several casualties, but hey, guess what, in the United States in the last decade there has been none (or maybe one or two) accidents due to ill-maintained planes that resulted in casualties, and this is in spite of several thousand flights taking off and landing daily.

For what it's worth, I personally trust the airplanes of reputed airlines in the United States (which is practically all airlines, unless it is a fly by night MomAndPop Airways) than I trust Amtrak when it comes to maintenance. I find it amazing the sheer number of engine failures Amtrak trains have on a regular basis in spite of quite limited number of trains they run compared to number of flights operated by Delta or American or Southwest or United per day. I know this is an apples to oranges comparison, but just saying that its not like Amtrak has amazing maintenance of its equipment and airlines run their planes on sheer luck.

 

[ehbowen]

I can't think of the last fatal accident which was due to a mechanical failure or human error on the part of an Amtrak train or crew. Not that there haven't been any; I just can't recall them off the top of my head and they didn't show up in the first couple pages of a Google search. There was a terrible accident in Chase, Maryland in 1987 which was due to a freight train crew under the influence of drugs overrunning a signal; the Big Bayou Canot disaster of 1993 when the Sunset Limited derailed at speed after a lost tugboat pilot rammed a drawbridge, and any number of trespassers (effectively) committing suicide by train or vehicles hitting or being hit by a train at a grade crossing. I think, with vanishingly few exceptions, that is the pattern you see in Amtrak accidents: Some outside party hits the train or the track, resulting in an accident. But almost nothing which is due to a failure of the equipment, its maintenance, or its normal operation.

 

[NorthEncantoGirl]

There was a disturbing interview on NPR's "Fresh Air" today about train travel:

http://www.npr.org/2...-more-dangerous

It's about a book, "Attention All Passengers" and parts of the interview was chilling.

In it, the author talked not only about the post-dereg hassles that have crept into the flying experience, but also of the real safety compromises that can seriously endanger people.

Has Amtrak had to weather a similar firestorm?

I was counting myself lucky that I had chosen the train for my vacation. As I was listening, I was keeping an ear out for parallels.

In this forum, most of the time people, when they grumble, kvetch about service; from what I can tell, there's not a lot of talk (good or bad) about safety. Very comforting, actually. (I can live with a surly attendant; I can't enjoy my trip thinking about worst case scenarios) This author was talking about a real degrading of safety in airplanes. Has there been anything like this on Amtrak. Has their safety suffered in recent years, or has it remained stable?

Any insight is appreciated!

Lace

Lace,

Passenger train travel, including Amtrak, is generally the safest mode of travel available. Safety on Amtrak (and on the host RRs) is a primary focus of the way they operate, and the US DOT statistics back that up. I have no qualms about my family traveling via Amtrak and have never experienced a safety problem, other than the one trip I took several years ago on the Crescent and we struck a trespasser north of Anniston, Ala.

Please enjoy your travels!

I had read that Amtrak is one of, if not the safest ways to go. In my limited experience on trains, I have certainly felt safe. It's good to know that they put their attention and resources into safety. I want a good onboard experience, but I also want to get to my destination in one piece...

 

[NorthEncantoGirl]

Sorry to spoil your party but that book to me looks like a work of someone who had a bitter experience with airlines for whatever reasons. Yes times are tough and everyone, including airlines and Amtrak for that matter, are hard pressed to find every possible means of cost reduction and revenue maximization but I would take with a big pinch of salt the claim that airplanes are becoming unsafe. If airlines were indeed cutting corners in maintenance sooner or later their lid would be blown off with a few nasty accidents resulting in several casualties, but hey, guess what, in the United States in the last decade there has been none (or maybe one or two) accidents due to ill-maintained planes that resulted in casualties, and this is in spite of several thousand flights taking off and landing daily.

For what it's worth, I personally trust the airplanes of reputed airlines in the United States (which is practically all airlines, unless it is a fly by night MomAndPop Airways) than I trust Amtrak when it comes to maintenance. I find it amazing the sheer number of engine failures Amtrak trains have on a regular basis in spite of quite limited number of trains they run compared to number of flights operated by Delta or American or Southwest or United per day. I know this is an apples to oranges comparison, but just saying that its not like Amtrak has amazing maintenance of its equipment and airlines run their planes on sheer luck.

I know airlines by and large are safe. You're right, thousands of flights and the mishaps are outliers. Still, even one mishap gives one pause. I trust the airlines, but less than I once did. Terms like 'revenue maximization' send a chill up my spine. Human lives are at stake. I know that sounds naive, but there you are.

Thanks for responding!

 

[NorthEncantoGirl]

I can't think of the last fatal accident which was due to a mechanical failure or human error on the part of an Amtrak train or crew. Not that there haven't been any; I just can't recall them off the top of my head and they didn't show up in the first couple pages of a Google search. There was a terrible accident in Chase, Maryland in 1987 which was due to a freight train crew under the influence of drugs overrunning a signal; the Big Bayou Canot disaster of 1993 when the Sunset Limited derailed at speed after a lost tugboat pilot rammed a drawbridge, and any number of trespassers (effectively) committing suicide by train or vehicles hitting or being hit by a train at a grade crossing. I think, with vanishingly few exceptions, that is the pattern you see in Amtrak accidents: Some outside party hits the train or the track, resulting in an accident. But almost nothing which is due to a failure of the equipment, its maintenance, or its normal operation.

This is comforting. And, I hope, normative.

Thanks for replying!

 

[oldtimer]

The outsourcing and off-shoring of airline maintenance really does scare me as I was in the industry in the late 60's and early 70"s. The government is shrinking to reduce the deficit but in many safety sensitive positions they have cut too much. The inspection and oversight of many non-American workers is a mistake that almost all major airlines have made. I personally think that the industry is living on borrowed time as far as a crash is concerned.

I worked in the aviation field either full time or part-time until 1974 as an FAA licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic. In April of 72 I went full time as a railroad electrician and retired in 08. I have traveled hundreds and thousands of mile on Amtrak and I never saw a passenger injury in all those miles.

I'll quote and old GTW brakeman that worked the Blue Water years ago:

"If you fly you die, use your brain take the train."

 

[amtrakwolverine]

No mode of transportation is 100% safe. You can be killed in your car driving to work being hit by a drunk driver or being mowed down while walking by a out of control car or truck that doesn't stop for the red light while your crossing the street.You can be hit by a car riding a bike etc. Nothing is 100% safe. Buses get into accidents greyhound has had a few along with megabus etc.

 

[Cristobal]

I can't think of the last fatal accident which was due to a mechanical failure or human error on the part of an Amtrak train or crew. Not that there haven't been any; I just can't recall them off the top of my head and they didn't show up in the first couple pages of a Google search. There was a terrible accident in Chase, Maryland in 1987 which was due to a freight train crew under the influence of drugs overrunning a signal; the Big Bayou Canot disaster of 1993 when the Sunset Limited derailed at speed after a lost tugboat pilot rammed a drawbridge, and any number of trespassers (effectively) committing suicide by train or vehicles hitting or being hit by a train at a grade crossing. I think, with vanishingly few exceptions, that is the pattern you see in Amtrak accidents: Some outside party hits the train or the track, resulting in an accident. But almost nothing which is due to a failure of the equipment, its maintenance, or its normal operation.

This is comforting. And, I hope, normative.

Thanks for replying!

You seem to be way over-analyzing all of this. Relax and enjoy your travels.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Maybe she should watch 1000 ways to die on spike tv.

 

[NorthEncantoGirl]

The outsourcing and off-shoring of airline maintenance really does scare me as I was in the industry in the late 60's and early 70"s. The government is shrinking to reduce the deficit but in many safety sensitive positions they have cut too much. The inspection and oversight of many non-American workers is a mistake that almost all major airlines have made. I personally think that the industry is living on borrowed time as far as a crash is concerned.

I worked in the aviation field either full time or part-time until 1974 as an FAA licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic. In April of 72 I went full time as a railroad electrician and retired in 08. I have traveled hundreds and thousands of mile on Amtrak and I never saw a passenger injury in all those miles.

I'll quote and old GTW brakeman that worked the Blue Water years ago:

"If you fly you die, use your brain take the train."

I love rhymes!

Make no mistake about it, I have no beef with planes. My dad was a sheet metal mechanic on Navy jets for more than 40 years. Would that there were a million more mechanics like my dad; I would have no qualms about air travel at all.

I agree, from what I have read and heard (not just this interview) that they have cut altogether too much. Who's to know what's prudent and what's foolhardy --until something happens, that is.

 

[TCRT]

Looking at some old statistics, you are far, far more likely to be involved in a car accident driving to the station than you are to be involved in a rail accident.

I'll post a link to actual relevant numbers if I can find a good one.

 

[George Harris]

When a train has an engine failure you coast to a stop and end up cooling your heels for a while on a stopped train.

When a plane has an engine failure, you coast to a stop into the ground and there are many pieces of plane and people to scrape up.

That said, I do not waste much time worrying about either one. In fact, I was on an airplane twice, yesterday.

 

[Nathanael]

In this forum, most of the time people, when they grumble, kvetch about service; from what I can tell, there's not a lot of talk (good or bad) about safety. Very comforting, actually. (I can live with a surly attendant; I can't enjoy my trip thinking about worst case scenarios) This author was talking about a real degrading of safety in airplanes. Has there been anything like this on Amtrak. Has their safety suffered in recent years, or has it remained stable?

Amtrak "culture" is railroad culture. And railroad culture is *obsessed* with safety.

A very rule-bound interpretation of safety, mind you. But seriously, you are not going to find a safer method of transport anywhere. They will not cut corners on safety.

There are railroad operations that will (Veolia comes to mind), but Amtrak isn't one of them. If you read their newsletter (Amtrak Ink), you'll find that they're actually spending a lot of effort on increasing safety further, both through more fine-grained maintenance practices, and by eliminating the "punishment first culture" so as to encourage employees to report mistakes. (Sadly the "punishment first culture" appears to be alive and well at the freight railroads.)

In contrast, modern US airline culture, since deregulation, is the culture of the fly-by-night discounter. Corner-cutting is a way of life. Safety may be maintained thanks to FAA oversight, but it's not a *cultural obsession* -- and on Amtrak it is.

 

[zephyr17]

The only thing reasonably likely to happen is a grade crossing accident where some car runs the gates and gets hit by the train. Back in the train itself, you wouldn't even feel it. A train is to a car like a foot is to a Pepsi can.

 

[VentureForth]

When a train has an engine failure you coast to a stop and end up cooling your heels for a while on a stopped train.

When a plane has an engine failure, you coast to a stop into the ground and there are many pieces of plane and people to scrape up.

That said, I do not waste much time worrying about either one. In fact, I was on an airplane twice, yesterday.

George, I respect you greatly, but disagree. Yes, a catastrophic failure would result in the picking up of pieces on the ground. These are indeed, rare. In the quoted scenario regarding power loss, more than likely the pilot finds a suitable place to land, trim to best glide speed and land. Google the Gimbly Glider.

On the other hand, before the horrible Chatsworth Metrolink disaster, there was an accident that killed three passengers sure to abdomen injuries when they slammed into table. Interiors on trains aren't designed for safety except for egress. In this case, the tables didn't give way. So in the diner, best to face backwards.

 

[zephyr17]

When a train has an engine failure you coast to a stop and end up cooling your heels for a while on a stopped train.

When a plane has an engine failure, you coast to a stop into the ground and there are many pieces of plane and people to scrape up.

That said, I do not waste much time worrying about either one. In fact, I was on an airplane twice, yesterday.

George, I respect you greatly, but disagree. Yes, a catastrophic failure would result in the picking up of pieces on the ground. These are indeed, rare. In the quoted scenario regarding power loss, more than likely the pilot finds a suitable place to land, trim to best glide speed and land. Google the Gimbly Glider.

On the other hand, before the horrible Chatsworth Metrolink disaster, there was an accident that killed three passengers sure to abdomen injuries when they slammed into table. Interiors on trains aren't designed for safety except for egress. In this case, the tables didn't give way. So in the diner, best to face backwards.

Kind of two different things, Venture. You aren't going to slam into a table if the engine failed and stopped or even if the train goes into emergency. That will only if you ram into something at speed (like a UP freight train). In those case, as at Chatsworth, you may well have telescoping issues too, despite things like tightlock couplers and collision posts and are likely to have severe injuries and fatalities from that. Ramming into something at speed in a plane, like the ground or another plane followed by the ground, is pretty lethal, too.

 

[caravanman]

Hi,

Travel can be upsetting and a worry to some folk, partly fear of the unknown...

Please rest assured that while no one can give 100% assurances about any course of action, taking a passenger train in America is about as safe as travel can be. Not relable as to timekeeping, etc, etc, but pretty safe!

I have travelled over 30,000 miles on Amtrak trains without any safety issues and I don't even live in America..

Relax and watch the world go by, journey in expectation of a good outcome, not in fear!

Ed

 

[Trogdor]

Terms like 'revenue maximization' send a chill up my spine. Human lives are at stake.

Revenue maximization has absolutely nothing to do with safety. Revenue (by definition) is strictly, purely how much money a company takes in through sales of its product/service. Revenue is not a measure of costs (for example, how much might get spent on maintenance or other safety or service-related programs).

 

[the_traveler]

The only reason that planes are "safer" than Amtrak (in deaths per thousand or whatever that statistic is) is due to the fact that more people fly on more planes for more miles! Can you think of the last time you heard on the news that a plane crased and everyone walked away? (Besides the US Airways landing in the Hudson River.) Yet it is major news that a plane crashed and there was 1 survivor! But it's also major news when there is an Amtrak crash and 1 person DIED!

I would rather crash from 3 feet or 15 feet than from 30,000 feet. And remember that the deadliest plane crash (with well over 500 deaths) happened when 2 planes collided - in Tenirefe (sp?) on the GROUND!

Just sit back and enjoy the ride!

 

[xyzzy]

Some would argue for a full 12 inches of "ballast shoulder width" on both sides of the track, even on straightaways. Many CSX lines have less. The Auto-Train derailment in Florida was ascribed largely to unfavorable ballast shoulder width and ballast shoulder slope.

 

[PRR 60]

The only reason that planes are "safer" than Amtrak (in deaths per thousand or whatever that statistic is) is due to the fact that more people fly on more planes for more miles! Can you think of the last time you heard on the news that a plane crased and everyone walked away? (Besides the US Airways landing in the Hudson River.) Yet it is major news that a plane crashed and there was 1 survivor! But it's also major news when there is an Amtrak crash and 1 person DIED!

I would rather crash from 3 feet or 15 feet than from 30,000 feet. And remember that the deadliest plane crash (with well over 500 deaths) happened when 2 planes collided - in Tenirefe (sp?) on the GROUND!

Just sit back and enjoy the ride!

There are lots of examples of aircraft accidents where everyone walks away. In fact, the vast majority of what the FAA defines as "accidents and incidents" do not involve fatalities. The "big, bad outcome" air accidents are, fortunately, few and far between. Of course, those are the one's that are most newsworthy, just as Amtrak accidents with fatalities are.

The fact is that both rail and air are extraordinarily safe by any measure. The time-honored claim that the most dangerous part of an air or rail trip is the drive to the airport or train station is true.

 

[NorthEncantoGirl]

'The fact is that both rail and air are extraordinarily safe by any measure. The time-honored claim that the most dangerous part of an air or rail trip is the drive to the airport or train station is true.'

Yes, I've heard that and I believe it.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Contrary to how I seem to have portrayed myself, I'm not a Nervous Nellie! I really look forward to my trip. If I felt any real sense of impending doom, I would have cancelled the trip days ago.

But it is interesting, the responses I've gotten when I tell people about this trip have been positive for the most part, but whenever anyone expresses any concerns, it's always about the two issues I've asked about: train safety and personal safety. I usually said I was fine with the (very) minor risk I was taking, but had just enough of a kernel of doubt to run it past y'all.

Everyone was so gracious in answering.

Thanks again!