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Just as a further comparison, I looked at the numbers for Dallas. First, it is important to note that the Dallas numbers are from 2006, not 2007 as they haven't been published on the DART site or at least I didn't see them. Second, I did not include the numbers from TRE (Trinity Rail Express), even though they are technically part of the greater Dallas transportation picture and organization.

Dallas has a population of almost 6 million more people than San Jose. They have an average ridership of 214,117 per day or their buses and light rail move about 3.5% of the cities population at present. It is important to note however that just five years ago they were only moving about 2% of the population and they continue to expand their lightrail system, with several extensions and a new branch already under construction, and still more planned.
 
Frankly, I'm amazed that such a cockamamie idea has generated this amount of discussion.

I'm back to my original response to the posting by MrFSS: Hilarity.
 
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*sighs*

By occupation, I am an entrepreneur. I come up with ideas and try to make money by working them in such a way that I can sell a product, service, or the idea itself to someone, or some group. I probably come up with 3 score ideas a day, and ditch half of them before I even get to the consideration stage. And I usually kill off about 90% of them before I get around to running the idea by my girlfriend. Why? Because they are either deeply flawed, are not inherently profitable, implausible, against my personal principles, or beyond my ability to capitalize.

About 6 months ago I came up with an idea to create a network of high-speed vacuum tube maglevs that, if implemented, would cut the travel time between any two major cities in the US to about 3 hours. The numbers worked, it would be technologically feasible. It also would have cost approximately a trillion dollars to build the first leg of the network, from New York to Los Angeles. Literal number. Would it be useful? Well, yeah. It could move about 3000 people from New York to LA in one shot, and take an hour and a half to do it.

Is such a system ever going to exist? No way, and definitely not in my lifetime. Its impractical for a capitalistic society to implement a 100-trillion-dollar transportation network like that which would never ever see a return on its investment. By the way, if any of you care to prove me wrong, more power to ya.

Another idea I came up with about 12 years ago was to take all the functions of a car and integrate them into a single video display and control it using a rotary knob-cum-mouse. I scrapped it about 30 seconds later because I came to the conclusion it violated the following: 1) it was implausible, 2) it was deeply flawed, 3) it was against my personal principle of K.I.S.S, and 4) it was beyond my ability to capitalize it. A few years later I saw practically the same idea debut on the 7-series BMW. I can't fathom why somebody would actually implement such an idea, but apparently they did. And I still think its incredibly stupid.

I have also tried to drag the occasional pet idea long past its usefulness. One of them was my convinced belief that people wanted extremely durable goods, and were willing to pay for them. I lost a nice sized hunk of money trying to sell a few items based on that concept for a small profit.

However, I also saw California try to implement their zero-emissions nonsense. I have seen people buy hybrid vehicles, despite the fact that they create more problems than they solve. I have seen people go jumping on the idea of ethanol. And I have had people tell me that my car is obviously inefficient because it has a total fuel capacity of 32 gallons (It can go about 1200 miles on those 32 gallons!)

Imagine a mass transit network that actually met your needs. You have to walk not 30 miles but 2-3 blocks to get to your local mass-transit stop. And that mass-transit system ran at least every 5 minutes during day light, and every 10 during night hours, 24 hours a day. Imagine a transit system that can get you anywhere within your local area within 20 minutes, walking included. That could get you to the hubs of longer distance transportation, as well. Tell me, my friend. Would this not work well enough for your needs?

And just in case, lets charge people for using their cars in densely populated areas. Three cheers to Bloomberg for having the guts to even propose that idea here.
 
San Jose on the other hand, again based upon the numbers provided, moves about 7.5% of its population each weekday via its buses and light rail trains.
Alan, I find the figure of 7.5% really hard to believe. I know a lot of people and the only one who took the bus around town was a homeless niece of mine (sad story). I googled for statistics on SJ and found numbers all over the map, many higher than yours. So I don't know how to explain the descrepancy between my observations and the stats.

I can say this...of the half dozen jobs I've held over the years, there was never a time when public transportation felt practical unless I had a couple of extra hours to kill every day. I suspect SJ is probably worse than many large cities in this respect as it's very spread out.

As I type this, it's pooring rain outside. According to Yahoo weather, it's going to keep doing that for the rest of the month. I'm just glad I don't have to walk to the bus stop to get to work!

Second, if all we have are PRT's, then they'll just bomb something else like a shopping mall.
Yes, but it's still to our advantage to reduce the total number of possible targets. Plus, I travel often but spend very little time in the mall. ;)

gary
 
Frankly, I'm amazed that such a cockamamie idea has generated this amount of discussion.
It's not just on this forum...energy, climate, and transportation are very hot topics everywhere. And I'm obviously in the camp that thinks what we have is not sustainable and requires rethinking.

gary
 
I come up with ideas...
Me to! My problem is that my ideas never make money. But that's ok - I do it for my own satisfaction. Here are two others I'm playing with...

www.ExpertVoter.org

www.UnitedDemocraticNations.org

So needless to say I won't be quiting my day job anytime soon.

gary
Gary, I have no quibble with ExpertVoter.org, though I do think a complementary site, MoronsShouldNotVote.net, might be in order. :)

United Democratic Nations is a different story.

"The goal of the United Democratic Nations is to promote world peace through the process of democracy."

After dropping the obvious lies about WMD and "nuke-U-lar" weapons, that was W's fallback position. We've seen how well it has worked. You can't bludgeon people into democracy.

And why the pic of Madeleine Albright (Secretary of State in the Clinton Administration) clinking glasses with N. Korea's "Dear Leader" Kim Jong Il, while omitting a shot of our own less-than-dear leader yukking it up - in costume - with the premier of Red China?

bush%20in%20china-720735.jpg


OMG, Dubya's wearing blue!! Secret Democrat? Yeah, right.

Best of luck in all your endeavors, Gary.
 
San Jose on the other hand, again based upon the numbers provided, moves about 7.5% of its population each weekday via its buses and light rail trains.
Alan, I find the figure of 7.5% really hard to believe. I know a lot of people and the only one who took the bus around town was a homeless niece of mine (sad story). I googled for statistics on SJ and found numbers all over the map, many higher than yours. So I don't know how to explain the descrepancy between my observations and the stats.
Well I really can't speak to the buses, since I've never been on them, other than to say that a few that I did see were rather full when I was in San Jose. The light rail on the other hand which I just rode from end to end last July was rather well patronized and I was riding in between rush hours, since I started my journey at 9:50 AM and I was off by 4:50 PM. The final run coming back to Diridon from Mountain View, was quite packed though.

Now I'll grant that my one day of riding isn't exactly a fair sampling, but it does seem to agree with the VTA's statistics. And it was based upon those stats, that I arrived at my numbers.
 
I come up with ideas...
Me to! My problem is that my ideas never make money. But that's ok - I do it for my own satisfaction. Here are two others I'm playing with...

www.ExpertVoter.org

www.UnitedDemocraticNations.org

So needless to say I won't be quiting my day job anytime soon.

gary
Why Republicans on top? Alphabetical order would place Democrats first, so I'm interested in the ordering. Also, the clips I watched reminded me of the fair and balanced nature of Fox News.

However, your United Democratic Nations amuses me. Democracy, as a concept, violates its own basic principle when it is pushed onto people, especially those unwilling to take it. In the history of the world, the only fully-functional non-parlimentary, full representation democracy to last more than a hundred years is the United States. Every single other example has failed within a century.

Democracy works relatively well in the US, I'll grant you that. The US was founded and based largely on British principles, and Britain was, historically, the most democratic of post-Roman European nations. Democracy fails and crashes most other places within a matter of a few years. Take Italy, which has constantly had trouble since the end of WWII- I read in the New York Times yesterday, after their government failed- again- that they've had 62 governments since the war. I only use Italy as an example because its fresh in my mind.

Britain always had a very strong sense of right, fair, and lawful. The British legal code is the inspiration for most western legal systems, ours included. Britain's system is carefully designed to prevent things like voter fraud, heavily overseen by watchgroups that are passionately against it. The US also has a very very carefully designed system to prevent voter fraud, and the commitment of people within the system to the honesty of it is incredible. In most other countries, however, democracy has a big stumbling block in front of it, and that is the essential honesty, and trusting nature, of the people living within it.

In our country, our military is symbolically tasked with only one thing. To serve, protect, and defend not the president, nor the people, but the Constitution of the United States. Every official in our governments first responsibility is always towards nothing more or less than to the proper upholding of the document on which our government is based. If the document is against the best interests of the people, before the best interests of the people can be served, the document must be amended by a two thirds majority of representatives chosen by those people. This concept is unusual.

In other countries, the respect and belief in the new system of government is never as strong as here. People automatically assume that the government is corrupt, inept, and fraudulent. Power-hungry people take advantage of loopholes in the system, recreate positions in their interest, and change the system to something resembling a dictatorship.

It varies as to whether this dictatorship is good or bad. Some of them are very good. There have been a long line of dictators who have truly had the best interests of their countries and its people in mind, who rule well, restore order, and genuinely do a damned good job. Hugo Chavez, had he been able to get the people to put him into the position he was aiming for, seems to be a good example.

In other countries, such as Sweden, other forms of government work better than American-style democracy ever could. People within the US are generally selfish, and think of themselves first, their family second, and the good of the people around them a very distant third. For that reason, democracy is the best we can do here. In other countries, however, the dedication of its people towards the common good allow for other, more effective, governments to flourish, such as socialism. Socialism, and especially communism, are exceptionally good forms of government when they are properly and honestly implemented. Please don't go into rants about the Soviet Union, because it was not in any way an example of proper communism.

Your problem is that you see things through your eyes, and assume that from what you see, you can implement ideas on an entire range of things you haven't seen. Your PRT project makes sense, given your experience with mass transit. You've never seen a well-run, well-implemented, well-executed mass transit network. Mass transit networks only work given proper implementation- they need to serve a wide variety of destinations from a wide variety of points of origin, with frequent, rapid, and reliable service. If it doesn't, it is only useful to people whose origin and destination are convenient precisely to the system. As a result, usage is limited.

Your experience with California trying to re-create a public transportation network out of nothing in a densely populated area is a massive, difficult, and almost impossible undertaking. New York works because it was never dismantled. It was built as it was needed over the course of about 100 years. They need more service now, so they are building another line currently, to supplement a dozen other lines that criss-cross lower Manhattan very effectively. To build a system as extensive as New Yorks will cost billions of dollars. To assume the concept of Mass Transit can not be the solution because your local system is not yet comprehensive enough to be useful is naive. To assume democracy can work worldwide because it works here is likewise naive.
 
Gary, I have no quibble with ExpertVoter.org, though I do think a complementary site, MoronsShouldNotVote.net, might be in order. :)
United Democratic Nations is a different story.

"The goal of the United Democratic Nations is to promote world peace through the process of democracy."

After dropping the obvious lies about WMD and "nuke-U-lar" weapons, that was W's fallback position. We've seen how well it has worked. You can't bludgeon people into democracy.

And why the pic of Madeleine Albright (Secretary of State in the Clinton Administration) clinking glasses with N. Korea's "Dear Leader" Kim Jong Il, while omitting a shot of our own less-than-dear leader yukking it up - in costume - with the premier of Red China?

OMG, Dubya's wearing blue!! Secret Democrat? Yeah, right.

Best of luck in all your endeavors, Gary.
I'll keep to transportation here, but I appreciate your photo of Bush and Jiang Zemin. I added it to the site.

thanks,

gary
 
Why Republicans on top? Alphabetical order would place Democrats first, so I'm interested in the ordering. Also, the clips I watched reminded me of the fair and balanced nature of Fox News.
Thanks for your feedback on the concepts. For the most part I'm gonna punt since they aren't on transportation, but I will address the ordering issue. When I first created the ExpertVoter website about a year ago, there were more democrats and republicans. So by putting the republicans first, they didn't fill the page and you could still see that there were other parties below. It's no more sinister than that. I'm afraid ordering is always one of those no-win situations. With all the dropouts of late it won't be long before all are back on the same screen anyway.

As for your fox bias charge, nearly all of the videos were CHOSEN by the candidates (see the yellow tabs). So that point is baseless.

Your problem is that you see things through your eyes, and assume that from what you see, you can implement ideas on an entire range of things you haven't seen.
I plead guilty.

gary
 
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Gary says "I'll keep to transportation here."

But transportation is inherently political. For those who may not agree, consider a current administration that has repeatedly gone out of its way to try to kill Amtrak. That's politics, and the welcome failure to exterminate Amtrak is a result of politics as well.

Here in the forum, there was a recent suggestion to begin a subtopic devoted to politics. I didn't think it was a good idea because I was concerned that - especially in an election year - it could quickly degenerate.

However, politics remains crucial to the overall transportation discussion. Who or what is gonna go where? How will they/it get there? Whooz gonna pay for it? Political issues.
 
I see standard driver less cars being the more economical option and would be integrated along with cars with drivers in the way that digital TV is currently replacing analog TV in that it is adopted over time and at some point made mandatory. From the plans I've seen cars would be entirely computer controlled using GPS, lasers, sensors etc to determine location of itself and other objects. Cars could merge at full speeds of 70 and 80, go through perpendicular intersections at the same speed all while being less than a foot apart, during high speed maneuver the windows would blackout to protect the riders from stress.

Here is a link of GM's concept car:



As you've probably seen some luxury cars already include warning systems, emergency braking systems and automatic parking.
 
I see standard driver less cars being the more economical option and would be integrated along with cars with drivers in the way that digital TV is currently replacing analog TV in that it is adopted over time and at some point made mandatory. From the plans I've seen cars would be entirely computer controlled using GPS, lasers, sensors etc to determine location of itself and other objects. Cars could merge at full speeds of 70 and 80, go through perpendicular intersections at the same speed all while being less than a foot apart, during high speed maneuver the windows would blackout to protect the riders from stress.
Here is a link of GM's concept car:


I certainly can't imaging a future where transportation is NOT fully automated for all the advantages you mention and more. But removing the unpredictible and inneficient element of human drivers would also be needed to truly fine tune the system.

gary

www.PRTProject.com
 
For my part, I don't WANT it automated. Now, I admit here my favourite car is a Morgan Plus 4, but I still imagine a lot of people wouldn't want to lose control of their own car.

/Digression

Morgan Motor Company is a small British firm that makes sports cars. They make two models, the 4/4-Plus 4-Roadster, and the Aero 8. The Aero 8 is a fairly modern car with aluminum space frame and high-tech wood composite construction powered by a BMW V8. The other car (Plus 4, 4/4, and Roadster) is something entirely different, a car that has been in production more or less unaltered except for small updates, since 1936. It is hand-built with a cruciform steel chassis, wood frame, and hand beaten aluminum body panels. They are relatively inexpensive for what they are (about £35k, currently $73k or so), and are custom made for each owner. They build about 600 of them a year.

/End Digression

Naturally, a computer controlled car could maximize the fuel economy of a given vehicle. It could take turns faster, thus reducing acceleration fuel burn, they could do a better job of maintaining a constant speed, and could operate in denser conditions with less slow downs and fuel wasting situations. But the fact of the matter is, a car is, by definition, an inefficient transportation device.

Let us compare the economy, per person, of two cars, to give a pretty eye opening example.

The Smart car is a fantastically innovative car, a tiny little demonstration of how efficiently designed a car can be. It is one of the poster children of the so called Greens. It is, without question, the most fuel efficient gas car sold in this country. It gets a combined fuel economy of about 42MPG.

The Ford E350 is an antique. Its basic design appeared in the late 70s. Its been cosmetically upgraded several times since, but not mechanically, or platformally. It is powered by an all cast iron, turbocharged 32-valve DOHC 6.0-litre V8 diesel. With this, its most economical engine, it gets about 10mpg carrying its full compliment of passengers.

The Smart is a less efficient hauler of people. A Smart can carry two people, giving it a maximum fuel economy of 84 passenger miles per gallon. The Ford, however, can carry FIFTEEN passengers. Giving it a maximum fuel economy of 150 passenger miles per gallon.

But let me blow you out even farther here. Mercedes/Dodge/Freightliner offer a van called the Sprinter. This van offers fuel economy of 25 mpg fully loaded. And it can carry 10 passengers. Which means it gets an economy of 250 passenger miles per gallon.

The future of transportation dictates that the more efficient form of transportation will win. And if you, Mr. Stark, believe nobody rides these methods when they are PROPERLY implemented, then I suggest you go to Newark Penn Station around 3:30 PM on a weekday. Go up to the Track 3&4 platform, and go halfway up the PATH ramp. Now watch the number of people riding these trains, and their frequency, until around 7:00. Then tell me they don't work.

Edit: Word of Caution: when on that ramp, stand off to one side. Press yourself against the railing when PATH trains arrive. Otherwise you'll be trampled as about 400 people come running and stampeding down it.
 
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For my part, I don't WANT it automated. Now, I admit here my favourite car is a Morgan Plus 4, but I still imagine a lot of people wouldn't want to lose control of their own car.
/Digression

Morgan Motor Company is a small British firm that makes sports cars. They make two models, the 4/4-Plus 4-Roadster, and the Aero 8. The Aero 8 is a fairly modern car with aluminum space frame and high-tech wood composite construction powered by a BMW V8. The other car (Plus 4, 4/4, and Roadster) is something entirely different, a car that has been in production more or less unaltered except for small updates, since 1936. It is hand-built with a cruciform steel chassis, wood frame, and hand beaten aluminum body panels. They are relatively inexpensive for what they are (about £35k, currently $73k or so), and are custom made for each owner. They build about 600 of them a year.

/End Digression

Naturally, a computer controlled car could maximize the fuel economy of a given vehicle. It could take turns faster, thus reducing acceleration fuel burn, they could do a better job of maintaining a constant speed, and could operate in denser conditions with less slow downs and fuel wasting situations. But the fact of the matter is, a car is, by definition, an inefficient transportation device.

Let us compare the economy, per person, of two cars, to give a pretty eye opening example.

The Smart car is a fantastically innovative car, a tiny little demonstration of how efficiently designed a car can be. It is one of the poster children of the so called Greens. It is, without question, the most fuel efficient gas car sold in this country. It gets a combined fuel economy of about 42MPG.

The Ford E350 is an antique. Its basic design appeared in the late 70s. Its been cosmetically upgraded several times since, but not mechanically, or platformally. It is powered by an all cast iron, turbocharged 32-valve DOHC 6.0-litre V8 diesel. With this, its most economical engine, it gets about 10mpg carrying its full compliment of passengers.

The Smart is a less efficient hauler of people. A Smart can carry two people, giving it a maximum fuel economy of 84 passenger miles per gallon. The Ford, however, can carry FIFTEEN passengers. Giving it a maximum fuel economy of 150 passenger miles per gallon.

But let me blow you out even farther here. Mercedes/Dodge/Freightliner offer a van called the Sprinter. This van offers fuel economy of 25 mpg fully loaded. And it can carry 10 passengers. Which means it gets an economy of 250 passenger miles per gallon.

The future of transportation dictates that the more efficient form of transportation will win. And if you, Mr. Stark, believe nobody rides these methods when they are PROPERLY implemented, then I suggest you go to Newark Penn Station around 3:30 PM on a weekday. Go up to the Track 3&4 platform, and go halfway up the PATH ramp. Now watch the number of people riding these trains, and their frequency, until around 7:00. Then tell me they don't work.

Edit: Word of Caution: when on that ramp, stand off to one side. Press yourself against the railing when PATH trains arrive. Otherwise you'll be trampled as about 400 people come running and stampeding down it.
I don't think we ever resolved our earlier discussions. It would really help if we could cut through the trivia and resolve a few basics first. To that end I have a very simple question for you...

Question: Will the majority of humans still be using steering wheels and gas pedals to control vehicles in 500 years?

Please, just a simple yes or no, without the digression. It will help me understand your basic thinking on future transportation.

gary
 
Humanity will become extinct because people like you wanted to maintain your "independence" at the expense of the world and its inhabitants as a whole. Americans in general, have demonstrated, clearly, that they'd rather have convenience and comfort than solutions. My own father, for chrissake, tells me he wants a fuel efficient car. GREAT! But not that one, that one, that one, this one, or that one over there. Well, they are too light. Lightness is a key to personal transportation being fuel efficient.

People don't want to help the environment. Not at their own expense, anyway. They just want to think they are. Thats all. And pay less out of pocket. If some preposterous tomfoolery like this PRT project of yours becomes real, I am going to bury myself on an island somewhere.
 
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Humanity will become extinct because people like you wanted to maintain your "independence" at the expense of the world and its inhabitants as a whole. Americans in general, have demonstrated, clearly, that they'd rather have convenience and comfort than solutions. My own father, for chrissake, tells me he wants a fuel efficient car. GREAT! But not that one, that one, that one, this one, or that one over there. Well, they are too light. Lightness is a key to personal transportation being fuel efficient.
People don't want to help the environment. Not at their own expense, anyway. They just want to think they are. Thats all. And pay less out of pocket. If some preposterous tomfoolery like this PRT project of yours becomes real, I am going to bury myself on an island somewhere.
So you resort to name calling, but are unwilling to answer the question. Having an intelligent, unemotional conversation on the subject apparently isn't going to happen. I would say you've answered the question.

gary
 
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