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The best news about this order could be what we are not

hearing: So far no leak at all of finger-pointing, name-calling,

and enemy-making between Amtrak and CAF. I believe

sourness began over the Acelas before the trains went

into service, and perhaps foreshadowed the considerable

problems that spoiled the launch. So I do believe this CAF

order, despite repeated delays, is one of those cases where

"no news is good news".
Highlighting is mine. The procurement process for the Acela trainsets was, shall we say, flawed.

Basically amounting to a company wining/dining key pols (and more, possibly) and said pols pulling the rabbit out of the hat for said company. No way to run a railroad or a government project, for that matter.

Just about everyone I knew was awed and disgusted, and, boy, Bombardier did not stint on the gaffes and fail.

Naturally, Amtrak looked to disavow themselves of the mess--they hadn't even chosen the vendor, so no reason to defend the choice, while Bombardier naturally needed someone other than their sainted selves to blame.

I'm sure Breda Ferroviare was blaming Boston and San Francisco for their own epic failures building trolley cars, like anyone cares.
 
Is it a matter of " Let us get those darn heritage baggage cars off the NEC" ? IMO the LD trains are gumming up the fluidity of the NEC. Often late north bound LD trains are being held at stations waiting for faster regionals and Acelas to pass ? The old baggage cars are deteriorating at different rates so that each one is have a different MAS posted for it ?
This is my theory. I suspect strongly that the Heritage baggage cars are hurting Amtrak's cash flow. There's a lot less marginal gain from the rest of the car order. So it just makes sense for Amtrak to go for the easy win first, especially with a Congress that neglects them at best these days.

As for the radio silence, frankly I think Amtrak would have preferred less over-the-top press during previous equipment upgrades but the pols had their fingers all over them so the politicians kept them in the news and in everyone's mind. Of course, after all that hype, Amtrak could do nothing but disappoint. (Although Acela was, to be fair, a successful upgrade despite the flaws.)
 
afigg and Woody:

I didn't realize the diners were such an issue in terms of speed and OTP. But if they are, I guess that really underlines the need to get the whole order finished. The Palmetto is interesting because there is a lot of speculation that it might be coming back to Florida if Amtrak can bump up its pool of sleeper cars again. (It was diminished due to some unfortunate wrecks in the 1990s and no funds to repair them.) The current schedule south of Savannah is not very useful for regional travel due to the loss of the Silver Palm.
 
One question I'd love to toss out regarding the old baggage cars -- if they're really such an impediment to operations, why didn't the company look at some of the surplus material handling cars for conversion to baggage service? Many of them had HEP cabling, passenger car trucks, and they were relatively new. It would seem to be a simple thing to add an accessible door to the end for emergency access (if needed), maybe install some type of heat for winter months, and have at it. Not an ideal solution at all, but cheap. As it is, I suspect many of the old MHC's are out there either waiting for scrapping, or waiting for resale.
 
One question I'd love to toss out regarding the old baggage cars -- if they're really such an impediment to operations, why didn't the company look at some of the surplus material handling cars for conversion to baggage service? ... Not an ideal solution at all, but cheap. ...
The Viewliner order attempts to answer several problems at once. (1) It replaces baggage cars that are 55 to 65 years old. (2) It replaces the diners of almost the same age. This will allow faster speeds on the NEC (and elsewhere). The diner replacements will dramatically cut maintenance costs. Then (3) the 25 new sleepers and 10 new bag dorms will give a 60% increase in roomette capacity, and more reliable operation in winter months. And (4) it positions CAF to bid on replacing 600 single-level coaches and cafes.

Ordering 130 cars at once, instead of 70 bag cars now, 25 diners later, and 25 or 30 sleepers still later, Amtrak got some economies of scale into the production. Of course, ordering 200 cars at once would have been better --- the more cars, the lower the cost per car -- but the option order presumably has higher-volume lower-prices built in. The 130-car order was absolutely necessary to replace cars about to fall apart. The 70-car option can get the bargain prices for modest capacity expansion.

But the 130-unit order was about the minimum. Ordering fewer cars would have raised the production cost per car, making them each more costly. So breaking the problem into smaller parts, and solving one part for a few years with rebuilds, would have hurt the total solution, not helped.

Another bonus will be new equipment with better and more efficient a/c and heating (a little heat even in the bag cars), LED lighting, better tolerance for cold weather, and a fresher look that customers will enjoy.


Now Amtrak will have 180 or so Viewliner cars in the fleet, making standardized maintenance and stocking of spare parts simpler and cheaper.

Maybe I lost count of the ways the Viewliner order will help Amtrak. LOL. But the delays will end next calendar year, the money to pay for at least the 130 cars being built will be found -- and we hope found for the 70-car option as well, and FY 2016 will start to look very good.
 
Silly question: What does each of these cars cost?

A Baggage car? A Diner? A Sleeper?

Just idly wondering.
The contract with CAF for 130 Viewliners was announced in 2010 as $298 million. The typical cost for each car type has not been published.
 
Silly question: What does each of these cars cost?

A Baggage car? A Diner? A Sleeper?

Just idly wondering.
The order was for 130 cars at $298 million, so all we know is

$2.3 million per, round number.

No doubt a diner costs the most, with plumbing, refrigeration

and other kitchen equipment, extra a/c and ventilation, etc.

No doubt baggage cars cost the least. Sleepers in between.

Your guess.

My wild guess, say, baggage cars $2 million each, diners $3

million each, so each diner costs $1 million more than a bag car.

If bag cars cost only $1.8 million, and diners cost $3.3 million,

then the extra cost of a diner could be $1.5 million.

The speculation is that buying more baggage cars sooner

and postponing the first diners for a few months could push

a few million (like $15 or $20 million) in costs into a different,

less stressed period for the budget.

Traditionally Amtrak's revenue plunges during January and

February, and recovers in the spring.

So lessee. Final payments on 55 bag cars, beginning say,

January 2015 and at a rate of 1 a week, continuing 55 weeks

would have meant higher payments for diners starting when

Amtrak is most pinched, ouch, roughly February 2016.

Changing the order from 25 bag/dorms to 10 and adding 15

more bag cars would mean CAF will be making baggage cars

for another 15 weeks. In that case, the final payments for

the more costly diners would come due summer of 2016,

not in the pits of winter.

Of course, there are several other perfectly plausible reasons

to adjust the order. If Amtrak can go ahead with the option order,

we'll soon forget the breakdown of the original order and it

won't matter at all.
 
As for the LSL, it was supposed to be the first LD train to get the new Viewliner IIs in the original deployment plans. We will see when the bag-dorms and diner cars are finally released into revenue service.
There are supposed to be two "pilot cars" of each type before the main production line. That would make 3 Viewliner diners (including #8400). All the other single-level trains with dining cars require 4, except the Cardinal which doesn't currently have a diner. So the LSL will probably get the two "pilot" diners, because it's the only way to provide a *consistent* Viewliner diner service.

Once the mass production starts, it's anyone's guess; the LSL might go back to Heritage cars as the cars go elsewhere.

This is my theory. I suspect strongly that the Heritage baggage cars are hurting Amtrak's cash flow. There's a lot less marginal gain from the rest of the car order. So it just makes sense for Amtrak to go for the easy win first, especially with a Congress that neglects them at best these days.
None of us know how much the Heritage cars hurt Amtrak's bottom line, because it depends on so many things which are confidential (maintenance costs etc). We can estimate how much the new sleeping cars will help Amtrak's bottom line, and the answer is $11-$22 million.

I've been using much lower estimates for the savings from retiring the Heritage baggage cars. If the savings really are of that magnitude, it would be an even bigger deal than I thought.

-----

From reading another thread, I just had a brainstorm and realized what the major CAF-manufactured difference is between the baggage cars (which are apparently ready for mass production) and the sleeper/diner/bag-dorms (which aren't).

It's the traps for low-level boarding. If there's a design problem with the traps (and it's a very finicky area which often causes problems), that would delay everything except the baggage cars.

I'm now betting they're having trouble with the traps.
 
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From reading another thread, I just had a brainstorm and realized what the major CAF-manufactured difference is between the baggage cars (which are apparently ready for mass production) and the sleeper/diner/bag-dorms (which aren't).

It's the traps for low-level boarding.

If there's a design problem with the traps (and it's a very finicky area which often causes problems), that would delay everything except the baggage cars.

I'm now betting they're having trouble with the traps.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Well, but. There are 50 Viewliner sleepers in service for

many years now. Don't they all have traps? The design

has been lived with for 20 years or more. So you think

they're trying an all-new-and-improved design and now

it ain't working?

¡Caramba!
 
From reading another thread, I just had a brainstorm and realized what the major CAF-manufactured difference is between the baggage cars (which are apparently ready for mass production) and the sleeper/diner/bag-dorms (which aren't).

It's the traps for low-level boarding. If there's a design problem with the traps (and it's a very finicky area which often causes problems), that would delay everything except the baggage cars.

I'm now betting they're having trouble with the traps.
The traps are hardly the only difference between the baggage and the sleeper, dinner, bag-dorm cars. The entire foyer, automatic doors, plumbing, HVAC, windows, slide-in modules for rooms/showers/bathrooms/diner car, power, lighting, and so on. Also, the dining cars don't have doors with traps or a foyer at one end, they only have emergency exit/access doors without traps. So why are the dining cars delayed as well?
With little to no information leaking on what is or are the issues with the other cars and what is going on with the CAF production in general, any speculation we make is based on a significant lack of information.
 
Yes, we're just speculating.

HVAC is off-the-shelf; baggage cars have windows, power, and lighting, even heating.

You're right that delays to the dining car order are *odd*, given that the #8400 is running, and given that the "emergency door" simply has a 5-foot fall onto the ballast. (Which is interesting.) What could go wrong with the dining cars, but not with the baggage cars, when the dining car interior is identical to that of the #8400?

Could be the automatic doors, sure.

Could be plumbing, but again, you'd think that was solved at least for the dining cars on the #8400...

Could be the modules. If anyone were making a Gantt chart, you'd expect that any problems with the RailPlan modules would have been worked out *waaaay* back, because otherwise CAF is just twiddling their thumbs while they wait for RailPlan. That's certainly a possibility, though.

Adding it up, it doesn't add up. It's probably cash management.
 
Some one correct me if this is wrong.

1. About material handling cars (MHCs). Seem to recall that they required a certain load or their MAS was 60 MPH ? If load less often ballast was added to the cars to meet that load ? Weighing bags might prove problematic with changes every station ? Recall reading about an Amtrak ferry from LAX - CHI with many ( 40 + ) empty MHCs only ? Anyone ?

2. Is it possible that Amtrak charges the LD trains on the NEC corridor for every minute the LDs delay Acelas and Regionals due to Heritage cars ? That would increase the LD operating expenses ? Example would be a Regional delayed 10 minutes charging the LD for all extra crew costs, station personnel, etc ? The north bound Palmetto ( no heritage ) sometimes seems to make better time than all but some Acelas.especially on weekends. Not same for Heritage LD trains.

3. The NYP - Albany - SDY portion of the LSL route will have some 90+ MPH running so the new Baggage cars will be needed to go on that route ?

4. Maybe an ETT will give individual speed limits on various Heritage cars ? If not access to a train bulletin and orders for an individual train might give MAS ?

5. The figures for level 1 overhauls ( Amtrak reports section ) of Heritage cars are very high. New cars will certainly almost eliminate / reduce that for about five years.

6. So new bags and then diners may make sense ?
 
Some one correct me if this is wrong.
.... some material elided for the sake of brevity ....
2. Is it possible that Amtrak charges the LD trains on the NEC corridor for every minute the LDs delay Acelas and Regionals due to Heritage cars ? That would increase the LD operating expenses ? Example would be a Regional delayed 10 minutes charging the LD for all extra crew costs, station personnel, etc ? The north bound Palmetto ( no heritage ) sometimes seems to make better time than all but some Acelas.especially on weekends. Not same for Heritage LD trains.
No they don't. There is no reasonable way to allocate things that way based on specific interference without starting to be pretty arbitrary pretty quickly. Indeed it is even quite hard to define such except in extreme cases like where an LD train breaks down holding up a train behind it. But that is not how accounting is done on the NEC. Indeed even slot accounting is not really done based on slot characteristics. Whatever accounting is done is pretty opaque and mysterious at present, not only within Amtrak but even where other Commuter agencies are concerned. That is what the NEC Commission is supposed to fix, among other things.
3. The NYP - Albany - SDY portion of the LSL route will have some 90+ MPH running so the new Baggage cars will be needed to go on that route ?
No new baggage cars are needed anywhere outside of the NEC just for the reasons of speed restrictions. The Heritage Baggage cars are cleared for 110mph, which is the max speed outside the NEC anyway, including on the LSL Empire Corridor route.
5. The figures for level 1 overhauls ( Amtrak reports section ) of Heritage cars are very high. New cars will certainly almost eliminate / reduce that for about five years.

6. So new bags and then diners may make sense ?
That is roughly the order in which they are slated to appear in general service deployment.
 
2. Is it possible that Amtrak charges the LD trains on the NEC corridor for every minute the LDs delay Acelas and Regionals due to Heritage cars ? That would increase the LD operating expenses ? Example would be a Regional delayed 10 minutes charging the LD for all extra crew costs, station personnel, etc ? The north bound Palmetto ( no heritage ) sometimes seems to make better time than all but some Acelas.especially on weekends. Not same for Heritage LD trains.
No they don't. There is no reasonable way to allocate things that way based on specific interference without starting to be pretty arbitrary pretty quickly. Indeed it is even quite hard to define such except in extreme cases like where an LD train breaks down holding up a train behind it. But that is not how accounting is done on the NEC. Indeed even slot accounting is not really done based on slot characteristics. Whatever accounting is done is pretty opaque and mysterious at present, not only within Amtrak but even where other Commuter agencies are concerned. That is what the NEC Commission is supposed to fix, among other things.
So while I know Amtrak doesn't do it. The trains in the UK are fined for delays. They have a big book that outlines all the different possibilities for delays and who gets fined. Basically if trains are delayed due to infrastructure (track, signals, etc) Network Rail (the gov't org. that owns the track) gets fined, per min of delay) and if it's a train or passenger issue the operating company (First Group, Virgin, etc) gets fined. I'm not entirely sure who actually administers the fine and where the money goes however.

peter
 
UK also does slot based allocation and charging, charging different amounts for different slot qualities. Amtrak and the NEC Commission eventually wants to get there on the NEC, but they are not quite there yet. The algorithm now basically appears to be 1. Come up with an estimate for the total budget for maintenance and upkeep for the year. 2. Divvy it up using some measure like total expected train miles in proportion among each using agency. Add a surcharge for those that use electric power from the catenary. And that's about it. Amtrak does keep track of which outfit is allocated the responsibility for what they call "interference", and embarrassingly Amtrak itself is a huge culprit on the NEC.

In UK the fines are managed by the Franchise directorate or whatever they call that outfit, and is charged as part of the overall settlement of subsidies/contributions for the year the last time I looked. Things might of course be different now.
 
Rest assured the fines go into the treasury under General Revenue, all Governments operate this way! ( Of course they promise diffetently with such lies as " the Lottery proceeds will go to schools", "the taxes/fines will go to transportation" etc etc.)
 
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Rest assured the fines go into the treasury under General Revenue, all Governments operate this way! ( Of course they promise diffetently with such lies as " the Lottery proceeds will go to schools", "the taxes/fines will go to transportation" etc etc.)
The net of rail franchise operations in the UK is still considerable amount of subsidy from the treasury to the operations and RailTrack. So all that the fines can do is reduce the amount of subsidy that needs to come out of the treasury. :)
 
Not a guru by any stretch of the imagination but after reading thru this thread and some others, a basic concept of business from my day comes to mind. A variation of "supply and demand" if you will. Not only is it important to be a good reputable supplier, it is also important to be a good reliable customer. So, when you read, hear about the delivery delays and the maybe 2015, maybe 2016, who knows??? Is it a shared responsibility on both ends. Just got off the CAF website, apparently time to think again about Amtrak being a big hitter. Had to go to the search function to find anything about Amtrak? Perhaps, I didn't check on the Siemens site but suspect the same may be true there.

So, if Amtrak, for whatever reason can't make up their mind(s) about what they want and when they want it-- and also--not sure when we can pay for it--the manufacturer(s) have no choice but to move on. A look at the CAF project list would seem to indicate--that train and others have left the station. The Amtrak car orders?? on the sidings next to the EB

east and west bound. Just a thought! Not a supplier problem, an Amtrak problem!
 
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