Move Silver Service origination to Boston

[Boston-Beans-Bob]

Makes perfect sense to do so. Boston South Station is better and cleaner then Penn Station hands down. Bostonians like myself will not have to make any unnecessary extended travel to another station that's on the same exact line and finally the revenue incoming by the addition of a Northern terminus would bring in more revenue 10 fold.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

This has been discussed to no end-- the simple truth is that BOS cannot handle another long distance train. In fact it barely holds one-- 448/9 isn't as needy as a full Silver consist.

 

[MisterRick]

Agreed, they probably couldn't handling another long distance train and most likely there is not much interest by Amtrak executive and the passengers themselves to warrant any type of change to either train service.

Rick

 

[AlanB]

Actually extending one of the Silver's to Boston was part of Amtrak's Network Growth Strategy several years ago.

I'm not sure that Amtrak currently has any hard and fast plans to extend one train north to Boston, but I also don't believe that Amtrak isn't at least talking about it. The real problem is finding the equipment to do it, it could require an extra trainset, and they may need to change the current schedules to accommodate it. Not to mention that Southhampton Yard has been very resistant to the idea of having to service sleepers. They fought long and hard against the return of the LSL sleeper.

Of course if/when the Viewliner II order has arrived, Southhampton will almost certainly get yet another sleeper back on 66/67, so at that point adding a Silver won't matter too much.

Finally, while I've no doubt that a Silver running to/from Boston would help revenue, I seriously doubt that it would increase it by a factor of 10.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

I don't really see why terminating in Boston would be at all necessary. There are plenty of connections to New York, and just because you happen to think South Station is better then Penn Station isn't exactly reason to. It would be like saying, I like the San Diego station better then Los Angeles so why not extend the Coast Starlight to San Diego. While in the above Alan did note there would be an increase in revenue, would it really cover the cost of of implementing an extension to Boston.

 

[hippyman]

I don't really see why terminating in Boston would be at all necessary. There are plenty of connections to New York, and just because you happen to think South Station is better then Penn Station isn't exactly reason to. It would be like saying, I like the San Diego station better then Los Angeles so why not extend the Coast Starlight to San Diego. While in the above Alan did note there would be an increase in revenue, would it really cover the cost of of implementing an extension to Boston.

In all honesty, I'm still trying to figure out why they cancelled the silver palm service, on top of all of this.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Would such a Silver be mostly full or mostly empty between Boston and NYC?

I think it would need to be mostly full, to generate enough extra revenue to pay for that run.

 

[Hamhock]

Would a single Viewliner sleeper through-car be that big a pain to manage? Have it go southbound on the 93 Regional, and take it off at NYP; there's 90 minutes to attach it to the Silver Meteor before it leaves.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Wow, that's an interesting idea.

Now that the Viewliners are at the end of the consist, adding/removing an extra should be relatively easily to do at NYP.

 

[jis]

NYP is not exactly the most convenient location to do car switching from one train to another, specially when said car has to sit and occupy a valuable piece of real estate in the middle of the day for 1.5 hours. If anything the switching should be done in WAS.

 

[SCrails]

I'm not clear about the purpose put forward for extending Silvers to Boston. It looks like there are already quite a number of connections from NYP to Boston. Would this just provide a single-seat (or single-bed) ride Miami-to-Boston? I wouldn't expect there to be a lot of end-to-end passengers.

My opinion? The route would be better served by shifting the Silver Star schedule so that the dark section in NC and SC gets daylight service.

Consider this: Columbia, SC, saw 36,065 passengers in FY 2009. That is almost as many as Cleveland, OH, with 39,371.

Columbia has only 1/3 the metro population of Cleveland (744,730 versus 2.2 million) and Columbia is currently served by only one train versus two. Both cities have wee-hours service.

...I may be biased, living as I do in Columbia and being averse to meeting the train between 2 and 4 a.m.

 

[wayman]

I'm not sure that Amtrak currently has any hard and fast plans to extend one train north to Boston, but I also don't believe that Amtrak isn't at least talking about it. The real problem is finding the equipment to do it, it could require an extra trainset, and they may need to change the current schedules to accomodate it. Not to mention that Southhampton Yard has been very resistant to the idea of having to service sleepers. They fought long and hard against the return of the LSL sleeper.

I'm surprised. I would have thought the union would love to see additional yard work because it would mean either more hours/responsibility for existing workers translating to more pay, or new hires or converting extra board mechanical staff to full-time, which is also good for the union. What's the argument of Southhampton Yard against Viewliners?

Adding full LD trains originating in Boston would also necessitate them adding service for full diners (something they don't have to contend with for 448/449 and wouldn't have to deal with on 66/67 either, even if it gains a Viewliner). That would entail a lot of extra work -- probably some expansion to their existing commissary (which only stocks cafe cars and 448/449's Diner Lite) in addition to servicing an entirely different type of car. (Granted, if they wait long enough, it would be a Viewliner Diner rather than a Heritage Diner, which is less different, but it's still different.) Even if they didn't stock the diner until NYP, they've still got to do car maintenance in BOS; and if they do stock the diner in NYP to avoid expanding the BOS commissary, that means a much longer stop in Penn Station than they'd otherwise need.

Finally, while I've no doubt that a Silver running to/from Boston would help revenue, I seriously doubt that it would increase it by a factor of 10.

I don't see how it would be possible to increase revenue by a factor of 10 ... or even much at all. Aren't the Silvers running pretty much full from WAS south already? That means there's no capacity to add passengers except between BOS and WAS, and given that the train probably starts out at half-full in NYP, most of the new passengers from BOS wouldn't even be able to travel all the way to WAS.

I'm not saying nobody from BOS will ever be able to get to MIA; I'm saying that for every passenger originating in BOS who books to south of WAS, Amtrak is probably just getting revenue they already had from a passenger originating somewhere NYP-WAS who now cannot ride the train. There's no net gain here for Amtrak, except that they're selling fares from BOS-NYP ... but are they even gaining ridership there, or would it just draw ridership off of regionals and Acelas which are already not typically full (in my experience) on the BOS-NYP run? I'm not even convinced they'd gain much revenue from BOS-NYP -- certainly not over and above operating costs. Given how empty the sleepers would run BOS-NYP (because so many bookings will be for passengers originating NYP-WAS) I suspect the sleepers would run at significant loss for that segment.

There's little extra revenue for Amtrak to pick up here, unless they're able to significantly lengthen the consist in addition to possibly needing an entire extra trainset given the extra length of the run and scheduling necessities.

Or unless they run a separate section (coaches, cafe, and Viewliner, and maybe a baggage) BOS-NYP which couples onto the full train at NYP. But then you're talking about a switching move. It might be the best approach, but it's still a lot of extra resources, time, and operating costs compared to ... well, I'm not sure how much gain you'd get. Some, but surely not tenfold!

 

[had8ley]

Interesting topic...first of all the NYP Silver Service trains pull into the station, almost in NJT fashion (at the last minute) from Sunnyside yard in Queens where 99.9% of all servicing is performed. To say Boston is better than NYP is like saying Beaumont is better than Mobile. One idea I really like is the switching in Washington of a marker ended sleeper~an easy move given the track layout of the through train tracks there but a horribly complicated one at NYP. What I dread is a late sleeper into BOS that gets a quick roll of T/P and a pat on the draw head hoping that Hialeah will take up the slack much like Chicago did to the City/Eagle when they turned into each other.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

My opinion? The route would be better served by shifting the Silver Star schedule so that the dark section in NC and SC gets daylight service.

You mean have the two Silvers run schedules which are 12 hours apart?

 

[SCrails]

You mean have the two Silvers run schedules which are 12 hours apart?

Yes!

Today the Silvers both traverse the Carolinas at night, arriving in Savannah, GA, roughly two hours apart in the early morning. The Meteor's eastern route is also served during the day by the Palmetto, but the western route has only the nighttime Star.

Shifting the Silver Star by 12 hours would give that part of SC daylight service while still retaining Raleigh's daylight schedule, albeit at the other end of the day for Raleigh. Raleigh's morning departures would become evening, and vice versa.

Again, Columbia already produces a (to me) amazing number of passengers considering our current middle-of-night schedule.

I should note that Raleigh is served by other in-state trains (for which North Carolina works very hard), while Columbia is served only by the Star (for which South Carolina works very little, or not at all).

James

 

[Bob Dylan]

You mean have the two Silvers run schedules which are 12 hours apart?

Yes!

Today the Silvers both traverse the Carolinas at night, arriving in Savannah, GA, roughly two hours apart in the early morning. The Meteor's eastern route is also served during the day by the Palmetto, but the western route has only the nighttime Star.

Shifting the Silver Star by 12 hours would give that part of SC daylight service while still retaining Raleigh's daylight schedule, albeit at the other end of the day for Raleigh. Raleigh's morning departures would become evening, and vice versa.

Again, Columbia already produces a (to me) amazing number of passengers considering our current middle-of-night schedule.

I should note that Raleigh is served by other in-state trains (for which North Carolina works very hard), while Columbia is served only by the Star (for which South Carolina works very little, or not at all).

James

IINM North Carolina PAYS for their trains, Im not that familiar with SC budgeting but Ive seen posts that put SC on the "unfriendly to Amtrak" list!

Considering the type of politicians that SC sends to Columbia and Washington (Sen. Dimwit, Gov. Romeo etc.) and the relative poverty of its citizens (thank God for Mississippi and Texas should be their motto!), I do not forsee Amtrak spending more money on such a low passenger volume state,not to mention that it would entail a scheduling snafu further up the line into WAS and NYP! This would be convienent for SC pax but as my old Drill Instructor used to say" "Ain't gonna happen in your lifetime or mine!" <_<

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

... but as my old Drill Instructor used to say" "Ain't gonna happen in your lifetime or mine!" <_<

After watching Full Metal Jacket, I think that comes out to being about 6 weeks.

 

[had8ley]

Let me throw this out on the table for discussion. Tack a Viewliner on the night Regional and run it all the way to Richmond. I'm not familiar with the facilities, or even if there is a stub end track that can hold a lone sleeper for a couple of hours, but it would seem that it might be easier to take the markered sleeper all the way to Richmond if there is a switcher and/or switching capabilities to get the Viewliner back onto the northbound or soutbound Silvers. Any ideas ???

 

[AlanB]

I don't really see why terminating in Boston would be at all necessary. There are plenty of connections to New York, and just because you happen to think South Station is better then Penn Station isn't exactly reason to. It would be like saying, I like the San Diego station better then Los Angeles so why not extend the Coast Starlight to San Diego. While in the above Alan did note there would be an increase in revenue, would it really cover the cost of of implementing an extension to Boston.

Terminating in Boston would increase ridership from Boston and the cities in between Boston & NY. It would do so for 2 reasons. First, people just like one seat rides. When forced to transfer, people are less likely to ride. Second, many people are currently discouraged from riding by the lack of checked baggage from the northern stations.

By the way, at one time the Coast Starlight did indeed run to San Diego. It was cut back to LA because of chronic lateness. I'm sure that Amtrak also did mind as it simplified things for them in terms of cleaning, restocking, and yard work since it consolidated all the LD's in LA. But San Diego is very different than Boston when it comes to yard facilities and the ability to deal with long distance trains.

 

[AlanB]

In all honesty, I'm still trying to figure out why they cancelled the silver palm service, on top of all of this.

Technically the Palm didn't totally disappear, it became the Palmetto.

It was cancelled in part because ridership started going down when the train lost its diner, and this was before the days of the Diner-Lite cars. It also missed the major market of Orlando and served other Florida cities during overnight hours which kept ridership down. Then when several derailments caused equipment shortages and Amtrak was forced to pull the lone sleeper from the Palm that was its undoing. It was shortened to Savannah and renamed the Palmetto.

If/when the Viewliner II's ever arrive on Amtrak property, expect to see the Palm restored.

 

[AlanB]

I'm not clear about the purpose put forward for extending Silvers to Boston. It looks like there are already quite a number of connections from NYP to Boston. Would this just provide a single-seat (or single-bed) ride Miami-to-Boston? I wouldn't expect there to be a lot of end-to-end passengers.
My opinion? The route would be better served by shifting the Silver Star schedule so that the dark section in NC and SC gets daylight service.

Consider this: Columbia, SC, saw 36,065 passengers in FY 2009. That is almost as many as Cleveland, OH, with 39,371.

Columbia has only 1/3 the metro population of Cleveland (744,730 versus 2.2 million) and Columbia is currently served by only one train versus two. Both cities have wee-hours service.

...I may be biased, living as I do in Columbia and being averse to meeting the train between 2 and 4 a.m.

Actually in an ideal world with Viewliner II's, if Amtrak were smart they'd do the following:

1. Restore the Silver Palm to Florida.
   
2. Move the Palmetto to the inland route, offset from the Star.
   
3. Extend one of the 3 Silver's to Boston
   

 

[AlanB]

I'm not sure that Amtrak currently has any hard and fast plans to extend one train north to Boston, but I also don't believe that Amtrak isn't at least talking about it. The real problem is finding the equipment to do it, it could require an extra trainset, and they may need to change the current schedules to accommodate it. Not to mention that Southhampton Yard has been very resistant to the idea of having to service sleepers. They fought long and hard against the return of the LSL sleeper.

I'm surprised. I would have thought the union would love to see additional yard work because it would mean either more hours/responsibility for existing workers translating to more pay, or new hires or converting extra board mechanical staff to full-time, which is also good for the union. What's the argument of Southhampton Yard against Viewliners?

It wasn't the union that was opposed, it was yard management.

Adding full LD trains originating in Boston would also necessitate them adding service for full diners (something they don't have to contend with for 448/449 and wouldn't have to deal with on 66/67 either, even if it gains a Viewliner). That would entail a lot of extra work -- probably some expansion to their existing commissary (which only stocks cafe cars and 448/449's Diner Lite) in addition to servicing an entirely different type of car. (Granted, if they wait long enough, it would be a Viewliner Diner rather than a Heritage Diner, which is less different, but it's still different.) Even if they didn't stock the diner until NYP, they've still got to do car maintenance in BOS; and if they do stock the diner in NYP to avoid expanding the BOS commissary, that means a much longer stop in Penn Station than they'd otherwise need.

They'd have to stock the diner in Boston, as it would need to provide a meal between Boston & NY. And it wouldn't be that hard for Boston to do that. After all it's really just a phone call and revised contract with Aramark to get them to provide the needed food stuffs.

Finally, while I've no doubt that a Silver running to/from Boston would help revenue, I seriously doubt that it would increase it by a factor of 10.

I don't see how it would be possible to increase revenue by a factor of 10 ... or even much at all. Aren't the Silvers running pretty much full from WAS south already? That means there's no capacity to add passengers except between BOS and WAS, and given that the train probably starts out at half-full in NYP, most of the new passengers from BOS wouldn't even be able to travel all the way to WAS.

I'm not saying nobody from BOS will ever be able to get to MIA; I'm saying that for every passenger originating in BOS who books to south of WAS, Amtrak is probably just getting revenue they already had from a passenger originating somewhere NYP-WAS who now cannot ride the train. There's no net gain here for Amtrak, except that they're selling fares from BOS-NYP ... but are they even gaining ridership there, or would it just draw ridership off of regionals and Acelas which are already not typically full (in my experience) on the BOS-NYP run? I'm not even convinced they'd gain much revenue from BOS-NYP -- certainly not over and above operating costs. Given how empty the sleepers would run BOS-NYP (because so many bookings will be for passengers originating NYP-WAS) I suspect the sleepers would run at significant loss for that segment.

There's little extra revenue for Amtrak to pick up here, unless they're able to significantly lengthen the consist in addition to possibly needing an entire extra trainset given the extra length of the run and scheduling necessities.

Or unless they run a separate section (coaches, cafe, and Viewliner, and maybe a baggage) BOS-NYP which couples onto the full train at NYP. But then you're talking about a switching move. It might be the best approach, but it's still a lot of extra resources, time, and operating costs compared to ... well, I'm not sure how much gain you'd get. Some, but surely not tenfold!

Just to be clear here, I wasn't the one who suggested that revenue would increase 10 fold.

But I do disagree that there is little extra revenue to pick up. As I noted in an earlier post, ridership would increase. People do like 1 seat rides and the addition of checked baggage would also encourage ridership.

 

[AlanB]

Let me throw this out on the table for discussion. Tack a Viewliner on the night Regional and run it all the way to Richmond. I'm not familiar with the facilities, or even if there is a stub end track that can hold a lone sleeper for a couple of hours, but it would seem that it might be easier to take the markered sleeper all the way to Richmond if there is a switcher and/or switching capabilities to get the Viewliner back onto the northbound or soutbound Silvers. Any ideas ???

It's an interesting idea Jay, very interesting. And it does solve the baggage issue for those north of NYP.

However, it would deprive the sleeping car passengers of a full dinner, unless they start running 66/67 with either a full diner or a Diner-Lite car. The later is probably not a bad idea for that train anyhow, since it is such a long run.

 

[jis]

Let me throw this out on the table for discussion. Tack a Viewliner on the night Regional and run it all the way to Richmond. I'm not familiar with the facilities, or even if there is a stub end track that can hold a lone sleeper for a couple of hours, but it would seem that it might be easier to take the markered sleeper all the way to Richmond if there is a switcher and/or switching capabilities to get the Viewliner back onto the northbound or soutbound Silvers. Any ideas ???

It's an interesting idea Jay, very interesting. And it does solve the baggage issue for those north of NYP.

However, it would deprive the sleeping car passengers of a full dinner, unless they start running 66/67 with either a full diner or a Diner-Lite car. The later is probably not a bad idea for that train anyhow, since it is such a long run.

Actually, you will run into problems at RVR due to lack of available track space and lack of shunting engine and crew. It would be better to do the move to Silver service at Washington DC which has both track space and an abundance of engines and crew to do the shunting. Yeah it will have to hang out doing nothing for a while longer perhaps.

 

[nferr]

I'm not sure that Amtrak currently has any hard and fast plans to extend one train north to Boston, but I also don't believe that Amtrak isn't at least talking about it. The real problem is finding the equipment to do it, it could require an extra trainset, and they may need to change the current schedules to accommodate it. Not to mention that Southhampton Yard has been very resistant to the idea of having to service sleepers. They fought long and hard against the return of the LSL sleeper.

I'm surprised. I would have thought the union would love to see additional yard work because it would mean either more hours/responsibility for existing workers translating to more pay, or new hires or converting extra board mechanical staff to full-time, which is also good for the union. What's the argument of Southhampton Yard against Viewliners?

It wasn't the union that was opposed, it was yard management.

Adding full LD trains originating in Boston would also necessitate them adding service for full diners (something they don't have to contend with for 448/449 and wouldn't have to deal with on 66/67 either, even if it gains a Viewliner). That would entail a lot of extra work -- probably some expansion to their existing commissary (which only stocks cafe cars and 448/449's Diner Lite) in addition to servicing an entirely different type of car. (Granted, if they wait long enough, it would be a Viewliner Diner rather than a Heritage Diner, which is less different, but it's still different.) Even if they didn't stock the diner until NYP, they've still got to do car maintenance in BOS; and if they do stock the diner in NYP to avoid expanding the BOS commissary, that means a much longer stop in Penn Station than they'd otherwise need.

They'd have to stock the diner in Boston, as it would need to provide a meal between Boston & NY. And it wouldn't be that hard for Boston to do that. After all it's really just a phone call and revised contract with Aramark to get them to provide the needed food stuffs.

Finally, while I've no doubt that a Silver running to/from Boston would help revenue, I seriously doubt that it would increase it by a factor of 10.

I don't see how it would be possible to increase revenue by a factor of 10 ... or even much at all. Aren't the Silvers running pretty much full from WAS south already? That means there's no capacity to add passengers except between BOS and WAS, and given that the train probably starts out at half-full in NYP, most of the new passengers from BOS wouldn't even be able to travel all the way to WAS.

I'm not saying nobody from BOS will ever be able to get to MIA; I'm saying that for every passenger originating in BOS who books to south of WAS, Amtrak is probably just getting revenue they already had from a passenger originating somewhere NYP-WAS who now cannot ride the train. There's no net gain here for Amtrak, except that they're selling fares from BOS-NYP ... but are they even gaining ridership there, or would it just draw ridership off of regionals and Acelas which are already not typically full (in my experience) on the BOS-NYP run? I'm not even convinced they'd gain much revenue from BOS-NYP -- certainly not over and above operating costs. Given how empty the sleepers would run BOS-NYP (because so many bookings will be for passengers originating NYP-WAS) I suspect the sleepers would run at significant loss for that segment.

There's little extra revenue for Amtrak to pick up here, unless they're able to significantly lengthen the consist in addition to possibly needing an entire extra trainset given the extra length of the run and scheduling necessities.

Or unless they run a separate section (coaches, cafe, and Viewliner, and maybe a baggage) BOS-NYP which couples onto the full train at NYP. But then you're talking about a switching move. It might be the best approach, but it's still a lot of extra resources, time, and operating costs compared to ... well, I'm not sure how much gain you'd get. Some, but surely not tenfold!

Just to be clear here, I wasn't the one who suggested that revenue would increase 10 fold.

But I do disagree that there is little extra revenue to pick up. As I noted in an earlier post, ridership would increase. People do like 1 seat rides and the addition of checked baggage would also encourage ridership.

Yeah, but you have to run the whole consist up to Boston, figure out the crew hours, etc., for probably 15% of the passenger load, if that. Plus you're shortening the turn around schedule and also putting a slow LD train on the NE corridor tracks which are only dual track north of New Haven. I think it's a bad idea and I'm north of NYP myself.