Metro- North considering Double Deckers

[AlanB]

The project didn't have any good in it at all. Its potential for increased capacity was more puffery than reality, for one thing. For another, believe it or not as you will, it really, really would have increase commute times for certain types of passengers. Pascack/Main/Bergen commuters, for one, would have found their commute times increased as service to Hoboken ended.

Only if NJT ended service entirely to Hoboken, something that wasn't in the plan, and then only for those actually working in lower Manhattan. And even then it’s debatable, depending on where the actually work in lower Manhattan. The PATH train is hardly a speed demon.

The project would have increased commute times for M&E and M-B riders by several minutes as far as actually arriving into the city goes.

I can't imagine how cutting out the stop and dwell at Secaucus Junction would increase running times for those coming off the M&E. Please explain.

Beyond that, the time needed to leave a station set up like that would have been impressive. NJT, in their unbridled optimism, said it would take only 7 minutes for passengers to reach the streets. It presently takes me 3 minutes to reach the street from the platforms if the train isn't too crowded.

I don't who worked on those estimates or how they could arrive at such a ridiculous conclusion. I can get from the platform to the street in less than 3 minutes at the 168th Street subway stop, a station that is far deeper than NJT's would have been.

But beyond that, Joe Clift told me he figured 7 minutes was an off peak estimate, and the nearest he could figure for actual track-to-street times would have been more along the lines of 10 minutes to 15 minutes. That would be double the longest I've ever spent getting to the street on an SRO NJT train. And I tend to wait for other people to depart, too, and get the back of the line. The project was flawed, at its very core, on the basis of a workable transportation improvement.

Utter nonsense!

I can get from the ground floor of Macy’s to the top floor during Christmas on their old slow wooden escalators in 4 to 5 minutes.

But a station that would have had more escalators and elevators than Penn station does, and fewer passengers at any given time than Penn does, is certainly not going to be more unsafe than Penn. And several fires at Penn have already proved just how unsafe it is. And I was there for one of the small fires too and I saw how quickly things smoked up. And that was just a fire on top of an AEM-7.

The fact that only NJ was building this doesn't mean that they didn't have to meet the very strict standards of the NYC's fire department for evacuations.

Penn Station has many more exits than 34th street would ever have.

And Penn Station handles probably 3 to 4 times the number of people that the new station would have handled. While I haven't actually done the math, I suspect that Penn has more people per exit than the new station would have had.

As a mechanism for actually moving people, escalators leave much to be desired. Which, as Joe explained to me, is why LIRRs concourse has a very limited number of them on platforms. Escalators move people slower than stairs do.

With all due respect, Joe should stick to other things than escalators. I quote from two stories:

The escalators provide a smoothing function, delivering people in an orderly manner to the lines at the counters, and at a much higher effective rate, more people per minute than could possibly be provided by elevators or stairs.

My linkhttp://reconshmigurable.wordpress.com/page/2/

While stairs can't move as many people per minute as an escalator, they also don't break or have to be closed for repairs very often.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/6863/mapping-metros-escalators/

34th street, in a fire, would be a panicked mob of people attempting to go up escalators for 174 feet, or approximately 15 stories.

While having less distance to go up, the mob would be much, much bigger at Penn. And with fewer exits per person.

And beyond that very simple item, there would be no way for firefighting crews to get into that station until it was fully evacuated- a time period that could have taken up to 45 minutes.

So are you saying that all the down escalators would have suddenly reversed to the up direction in a fire?

34th street was an ill planned death trap and a memorial to the ego of a very vain and very stupid man.

You can come up with all sorts of reasons to hate that final plan simply because it didn't go where you wanted and thought it should have gone to, GCT, but that doesn't change the fact that the plan wasn't an unmitigated disaster. Yes, I remain firmly convinced that killing the connecting tracks to the existing Penn was a major mistake, but that was probably the biggest stupidity contained within the final plan.

But now we're left with nothing. There is no plan and there is nothing on the horizon. And there is little hope of ever getting funding even if someone does come up with a plan. I know that I have little hope of being alive, much less able to ride a train, when a new tunnel finally does get built under the Hudson.

 

[jis]

Ah OK we are talking fantasy. In which case it is OK. Charge ahead

Would you care to explain to me why this is a fantasy? And I'm not being sarcastic, I'd really like to know.

The details are too sparse to convince oneself that the scheme could be made to work reasonably and safely. Until those details are filled in and a safety analysis can be done and we can figure out what speed such a system will be able to operate safely covering all reasonable contingencies and failures of parts of the system. It just is fantasy. The devil in these things is always in the details.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You can come up with all sorts of reasons to hate that final plan simply because it didn't go where you wanted and thought it should have gone to, GCT, but that doesn't change the fact that the plan wasn't an unmitigated disaster.

Alan, lets get one thing straight. I can't speak for others in my organization, but tracks to GCT were always a fantasy in my mind dreamed up by loons. You can't tunnel that far through Central Manhattan at a reasonable distance to the surface. It would be really cool for NJT trains to stop at GCT. It would be equally cool to have HS maglevs running between NY and London. I consider them about as reasonable.

My objections to the plan came down to cost and utility. The project cost far too much of MY tax money (not yours, I point out), and accomplished very little. NJ Transit can't successfully move trains at any reasonable speed through the Bergen tunnels, I can't imagine how they would ever be able to dispatch that terminal in a reasonably efficient manner. So the expanded capacity they ballyhooed was mostly ballyhoo. Their yapping about Bayhead trains going into Penn is utter nonsense. Existing Long Branch trains can get dual modes, and run express past Rahway and you have Bayhead to New York trains voila like.

You say that no tunnel will be built for fifty years. Alan, Penn station needs a huge track-side renovation and concourse expansion combined with additional tunnels. If these tunnels were built, that would NEVER EVER happen. Now there is a chance within our lifetimes the right project will be built.

And really, when it comes down to actual passenger capacity, if NJT really gave a hoot, the MLVs would be 2-3 seating like all the other NYMA cars!

The details are too sparse to convince oneself that the scheme could be made to work reasonably and safely. Until those details are filled in and a safety analysis can be done and we can figure out what speed such a system will be able to operate safely covering all reasonable contingencies and failures of parts of the system. It just is fantasy. The devil in these things is always in the details.

Ah, ok. I accept that.

 

[AlanB]

You can come up with all sorts of reasons to hate that final plan simply because it didn't go where you wanted and thought it should have gone to, GCT, but that doesn't change the fact that the plan wasn't an unmitigated disaster.

Alan, lets get one thing straight. I can't speak for others in my organization, but tracks to GCT were always a fantasy in my mind dreamed up by loons. You can't tunnel that far through Central Manhattan at a reasonable distance to the surface. It would be really cool for NJT trains to stop at GCT. It would be equally cool to have HS maglevs running between NY and London. I consider them about as reasonable.

Ok, my apologies, I'll retract my statement. Usually when I hear the nonsense about the station being in Macy's basement and deathtraps, etc. it's from those who wanted GCT or those just opposed to spending money on trains.

My objections to the plan came down to cost and utility. The project cost far too much of MY tax money (not yours, I point out), and accomplished very little.

I guess you forgot that Federal monies were being used in this project; $3 Billion. I pay Federal taxes. I guess you forgot that PA monies were to be used for that project; $3B. It's the Port Authority of NY & NJ. And I leave my fair share of money behind at the tolls every time I cross over the river, typically at least 3 or 4 times a month and sometimes far more often than that.

Yes, perhaps more of your money would have been used; that I would accept. But they were still using some of my money too!

As for the cost, try to remember, this was NJ's project. Maybe if Mr. Christie had put the right people in place they could have actually held things close to the budget, after all it had contingencies built into the budget for cost overruns. Instead he was too busy worrying about his Presidential aspirations and gallivanting around the country, even as he told us that he was actually looking into things. After all, the majority of the contracts would have been let by his administration. So basically what he’s said is that he knew that he couldn’t trust his people to handle things; so he cancelled the project.

You say that no tunnel will be built for fifty years. Alan, Penn station needs a huge track-side renovation and concourse expansion combined with additional tunnels. If these tunnels were built, that would NEVER EVER happen. Now there is a chance within our lifetimes the right project will be built.

Maybe yours, but at age 50 it's now looking doubtful that I'll ever ride a train through a new tunnel under the river. It'll take us 15 to 20 years just to get back to the point where there is a plan and to start finding the funds for it. By the time it's built, I'll be 80 if I make it that far.

And really, when it comes down to actual passenger capacity, if NJT really gave a hoot, the MLVs would be 2-3 seating like all the other NYMA cars!

First, it's a well documented fact that people don't like the middle seat, and therefore half that capacity goes wasted as people will stand rather than occupy the middle seat. And standing people cut the car’s capacity as they block the doors preventing others from getting in and they slow down loading/unloading which slows down schedules.

Additionally when they went taller cars for the greater capacity of the cars as compared to single level cars, they couldn't go as wide and still fit through the tunnel. A middle seat would have been impractical.

 

[jis]

You say that no tunnel will be built for fifty years. Alan, Penn station needs a huge track-side renovation and concourse expansion combined with additional tunnels. If these tunnels were built, that would NEVER EVER happen. Now there is a chance within our lifetimes the right project will be built.

Maybe yours, but at age 50 it's now looking doubtful that I'll ever ride a train through a new tunnel under the river. It'll take us 15 to 20 years just to get back to the point where there is a plan and to start finding the funds for it. By the time it's built, I'll be 80 if I make it that far.

I tend to believe that nothing will happen as far as Penn Station is concerned until Amtrak or someone in charge of the NEC gets into the act and builds something as part of a HSR project. NJ is simply not capable of managing a project of that magnitude. So I would not be expecting any action for 10 to 15 years from now.

And really, when it comes down to actual passenger capacity, if NJT really gave a hoot, the MLVs would be 2-3 seating like all the other NYMA cars!

First, it's a well documented fact that people don't like the middle seat, and therefore half that capacity goes wasted as people will stand rather than occupy the middle seat. And standing people cut the car’s capacity as they block the doors preventing others from getting in and they slow down loading/unloading which slows down schedules.

Additionally when they went taller cars for the greater capacity of the cars as compared to single level cars, they couldn't go as wide and still fit through the tunnel. A middle seat would have been impractical.

If they are serious about capacity they should do 1 - 2 seating and provide ample space for standees, at least in some standees friendly cars, which could better accommodate short turn heavy loads e.g. SEC - NYP. Admittedly, the MLVs are already better in this respect providing significant standing space in the middle level, which I thought was a huge improvement over all the single level stock

The NEC commuter trains are some of the most difficult trains to ride in heavy load conditions. Perhaps that is because even the railroads operators believe that not too many people would ride the trains anyway so why bother thinking about such contingencies. And yet, many trains at least on the NEC are SRO. If they are going to be SRO might as well provide people comfortable places to stand without blocking all pedestrian flow in the car. Way way cheaper to expand capacity that way than digging zillion dollar tunnels, somewhat facetiously speaking.

The problem is if one thinks one has zillion dollars forthcoming one stops thinking up cheaper effective solutions for immediate problems, and even things that should be cheap become gold plated expensive Christmas trees, with gifts of dubious value hung on it for everyone and more. Hopefully, zillion dollars fading away will change people's mindsets

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Ok, my apologies, I'll retract my statement.

Apology accepted.

As for the cost, try to remember, this was NJ's project. Maybe if Mr. Christie had put the right people in place they could have actually held things close to the budget, after all it had contingencies built into the budget for cost overruns. Instead he was too busy worrying about his Presidential aspirations and gallivanting around the country, even as he told us that he was actually looking into things. After all, the majority of the contracts would have been let by his administration. So basically what he’s said is that he knew that he couldn’t trust his people to handle things; so he cancelled the project.

The tunnel, like it or not, was a Corzine project, and really, a McGreavy project, too. As such, it was fraught with the kind of absolutely horrendous bribery and old boy networks they were known for. By the time Christie became involved with this project, it was an alliance of two groups of thieves with their hands so deep in each others pockets, they couldn't successfully rob a third.

The project was deeply flawed, hilariously over budget with the kind of corruptive nonsense that only NJ can produce, and in order to fix the project, it would have had to be scrapped anyway. The more I know from internal information about Christie's decision making process, rather than the load of utter BS they printed in the paper and other news media, the more I have become convinced that his cancellation of the project had as much to do with concerns over the utility of the project as concerns over its costs.

And while Christie is somewhat (but not VERY) pro-highway, he is not particularly anti-rail. Merely anti-gas-tax to the hilt, and from there all else flows.

First, it's a well documented fact that people don't like the middle seat, and therefore half that capacity goes wasted as people will stand rather than occupy the middle seat. And standing people cut the car’s capacity as they block the doors preventing others from getting in and they slow down loading/unloading which slows down schedules.

The day NJT makes a decision like that based on passenger input, I'll eat my shorts.

NJ is simply not capable of managing a project of that magnitude.

Amen.

Way way cheaper to expand capacity that way than digging zillion dollar tunnels, somewhat facetiously speaking.

The problem is if one thinks one has zillion dollars forthcoming one stops thinking up cheaper effective solutions for immediate problems, and even things that should be cheap become gold plated expensive Christmas trees, with gifts of dubious value hung on it for everyone and more. Hopefully, zillion dollars fading away will change people's mindsets

Let us hope so, Jishnu. I remain skeptical. Zillion dollar plans are a lot more marketable then austerity.