Losing Money on Meal Service

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George K

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There was a discussion a while ago about cutting services that are not "essential." Many made the point that, particularly on LD trains, meal services are essential. I agree - man's gotta eat! One poster (I forget who it was) commented that 83% of Amtrak's losses (or over budget costs) are due to providing meal services.

I mentioned this to a friend, and showed him the menu on CONO, and his comment was, "How much can they lose at those prices?"

I dunno? Does anyone? What do meal services cost (staff, actual meals, silverware, and china plastic)? I would think that people who purchase meals (non-sleepers) more than make up for the cost, but sleeper pax? Are they a drain?
 
It's very labor intensive plus substantial mechanical costs involved in running the dining car around (though I don't believe that's actually charged to the F&B account). A diner car by itself is probably close to the same crew expense as a regular corridor train.
 
Each dining car has at least three attendants - including the cook downstairs. A coach car will have 50-60 passengers generating revenue with only one attendant for the car. The diner generates no revenue, other than the price of the meal. A sleeper car has 20 rooms with potentially 40 passengers with one attendant. The car requires at least as much maintenance as any piece of rolling stock, plus the mechanicals of the kitchen, dumbwaiter, etc.
Am I thinking correctly here? That's what I told him.
 
"How much can they lose at these prices?" On the Cardinal the other day at dinner, there were less than 10 people eating. Most were sleeper passengers. To support these passengers, there were, I think 2 staff. Even though the prices are high for what is delivered, it is the staff cost that drives up the costs and hence the losses.
 
Thats sort of what I told him. CONO dinner on Thursday evening had about 20 people eating, and they only opened half the dining car. There were two upstairs staff plus downstairs personnel (only one, right?).

Thanks for the insights.

Was that 83% number right?
 
It's very labor intensive plus substantial mechanical costs involved in running the dining car around (though I don't believe that's actually charged to the F&B account). A diner car by itself is probably close to the same crew expense as a regular corridor train.
This, and addition the LOGISTICS of meal service are really difficult, especially if you want something other than what is comparable to the second meal served an international flight (i.e., sitting on the tray for several hours). You basically have to equip a dining car like an actual kitchen AND have a supply chain that can get the food out to the train at the right time and in the right places. It's just not the same as the costs one would pay if one opened a restaurant in a city.

I suspect, personally, that dining cars ARE hugely problematic for Amtrak's costs, even though I like eating in them. Even in the halcyon days of railroads, dining cars always lost money (the difference is, the rest of the operation made a profit that could pay for them as a loss leader, which isn't true now). When the railroads were still private and were trying to cut costs in the 1960's full service diners were often downgraded to cheaper snack cars and automat cars. That's a good indicator that they must have been bleeding money.

Two other problematic things about diners is that they are free for sleeping car passengers (which would not be crazy if sleepers were priced above cost but is crazy in the current business model) and that the people who use Amtrak as basic transportation (i.e., the people who are the reason for Amtrak's subsidies) tend not to eat in them (because they are too expensive) while the folks who take trains because they are fun do (and the latter group presents a far less compelling case for a subsidy).

It would probably be for the best if Amtrak moved away from dining cars, perhaps replaced by some sort of at-seat / at room dining service comparable to what they do in first class on Acela (where you get airline-style meals) or upgraded lounge and snack cars. But don't hold your breath-- I have a feeling 50 years from now Amtrak will still be losing a ton of money on food.
 
I suspect, personally, that dining cars ARE hugely problematic for Amtrak's costs, even though I like eating in them. Even in the halcyon days of railroads, dining cars always lost money
From my research, this last statement seems to be false. There seems to be quite a lot of evidence that some dining car services broke even or made small profits during some of the early decades (19th century).
Pullman introduced the "Delmonico" in 1868, and appears to have made a profit on it, initially running on the busy (and short) Chicago & Alton. With the dining cars as a separate operation from the train service, he *had* to make a profit on the dining service alone, and he did.

I haven't done my full research and dug into the 19th century accounts enough to know exactly what accounting was being used; for all I know, the railroads paid him to haul the cars. But for him, the dining service was profitable. Of course, labor was cheap at the time.

The dining cars allowed the railroads to eliminate "meal stops" from the train routes; trains without dining cars had to have meal stops. This train delay cost a vast amount of revenue. The main profit for the railroads from the dining cars was then, as it is now, the elimination of meal stops.

The Santa Fe, apparently, continued to use the Harvey Houses for meal stops for many years after other companies were running dining cars. This worked for their long, desolate western routes, but eventually they surrendered to the dining car trend. However, out west dining car service was much iffier financially than it was on a high-volume route like the Chicago & Alton...

(the difference is, the rest of the operation made a profit that could pay for them as a loss leader, which isn't true now). When the railroads were still private and were trying to cut costs in the 1960's full service diners were often downgraded to cheaper snack cars and automat cars. That's a good indicator that they must have been bleeding money.
By *then*, with higher wages and lower ridership, they were.
A key point here is volume. The initial dining cars in the 19th century were carrying huge volumes of patronage. You absolutely cannot support a dining car on low volumes.

This is of course why the current Amtrak dining car situation of high prices, low quality, low turnover, and most of all *low volume* is a death spiral.

---

What Amtrak should do is to first focus on routes with a long consist, high ridership, and already-high dining car patronage, and then figure out how to increase volume and lower prices, while increasing food quality.

I would suggest increasing turnover by reducing the number of separately served courses (serving everything except dessert at once). Most people don't have multi-course meals any more. Accounting should be simplified / automated in order to reduce the amount of time wasted by staff on that, so that staff can spend more time serving customers. And the dining car should be open as many hours as possible, again to get more volume. If it starts bursting at the seams, Amtrak is doing it right and should add a table car.

The Auto Train has the largest passenger capacity of all, and is scheduled so that 100% of the passengers need a meal. The Empire Builder has the second-largest capacity overall (in summer), so can be considered the train with the second-highest total potential for patronage. (And the Empire Builder crews have a much more efficient table-turning procedure than the SW Chief or CZ, probably because they *need* to. The PIP proposed adding a "first class lounge" to the Empire Builder in order to relieve the pressure on the dining car -- so that they don't have to turn customers away -- though a table car might do just as well.) The LSL gets the highest dining car patronage from coach cars; and also has the highest total capacity in the consist of the single-level trains. All of these regularly have high passenger loads, as well.

These are cases where some careful, competent management (as opposed to the Congressional meddling we've seen) might bring the dining cars closer to break-even. The Cardinal with its current short consist? No chance. Frankly, the Southwest Chief, probably no chance either.

(Edited to remove garbled sentence)
 
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Thats sort of what I told him. CONO dinner on Thursday evening had about 20 people eating, and they only opened half the dining car.
The implication is that Amtrak needs more than twice as many dining car customers as that.
And you do see this much-higher patronage on some of the trains. At least until recent quality cutbacks.

I wonder if Amtrak has ever released a breakdown of dining car revenues by route. Because the cost of operations is practically the same on each route, but the revenues should be varying *wildly* by route. I'd expect the Cardinal, CONO, Texas Eagle, Sunset Limited, and Southwest Chief to be generating very low dining car revenues, with the Auto Train (if they break that out at all), Empire Builder, Lake Shore Limited generating much better numbers.
 
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Well, if the Cardinal ran daily, and ran a lot faster from Indianapolis to Chicago, there might possibly be enough riders to start justifying dining car service. :p The Cardinal's current three-a-week situation is really not acceptable. Basically Amtrak is paying several million dollars a year and wearing out equipment in order to keep a placeholder in place for potential future service. Same situation with the Sunset Limited.
 
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I wonder if Amtrak has ever released a breakdown of dining car revenues by route. Because the cost of operations is practically the same on each route, but the revenues should be varying *wildly* by route. I'd expect the Cardinal, CONO, Texas Eagle, Sunset Limited, and Southwest Chief to be generating very low dining car revenues, with the Auto Train (if they break that out at all), Empire Builder, Lake Shore Limited generating much better numbers.
Perhaps one can FOIL these numbers?

Maybe removing meal service from trains like the Cardinal makes sense.
I wonder if for some of the lower-volume trains, a "DinerLounge" (combined food, NOT combined cars!!!) would work. An LSA would sell the standard items available in the lounge car today, as well as the prepared meals, sides, etc currently available in the dining car (keep the chef) for passengers to consume at tables at their leisure, no reservations, no table service.

Hope I'm not opening a Pandora's box with this idea...
 
The implication is that Amtrak needs more than twice as many dining car customers as that.

And you do see this much-higher patronage on some of the trains. At least until recent quality cutbacks.

I wonder if Amtrak has ever released a breakdown of dining car revenues by route. Because the cost of operations is practically the same on each route, but the revenues should be varying *wildly* by route. I'd expect the Cardinal, CONO, Texas Eagle, Sunset Limited, and Southwest Chief to be generating very low dining car revenues, with the Auto Train (if they break that out at all), Empire Builder, Lake Shore Limited generating much better numbers.
Amtrak OIG has (page 4). It also shows Sunset Limited dining car revenue by meal period
 
"Losing money on meal service" has become a mantra from those who would destroy Amtrak. The issue is not a means of reforming Amtrak, or even how much the meals costs. It is an attempt to reduce the meals to a level that is not viable so that fewer people will use the diner (already apparent this year), and thus the diners can be discontinued, and then the trains. This is the point of view promugated by those who never take the train, and don't want others to do so either.

Losing money is an accounting fiction. One could easily well argue that a Holiday Inn Express loses 100% on its breakfasts because no one pays for them; they are included in the room cost. Does that mean they should eliminate breakfasts? Of course not, because it is part of their promotion to get people to come stay there.
 
It's very labor intensive plus substantial mechanical costs involved in running the dining car around (though I don't believe that's actually charged to the F&B account). A diner car by itself is probably close to the same crew expense as a regular corridor train.
. . . problematic things about diners is that they are free for sleeping car passengers . . .
Sleeper car passengers pay for their meals. That cost is included in the price of their sleeper accommodations.

And the sleeper accommodation cost is separate from the seat fare.

In other words, a sleeper passenger is paying a seat fare and a cost for the sleeper berth that includes meals in the dinning car as long as the passenger has the sleeper berth.
 
Interesting point. When you get down to the nitty gritty, it's all about the space (which is why airlines are so much fun).

A bedroom costs twice as much as a roomette - because they could put two roomettes in the same space.

So...a roomette should cost as much as the equivalent coach seats PLUS the cost of meals. How many "coach seats" does a roomette occupy? Of course, you have to add the cost of the SCA. Does that make sense?
 
My way of thinking about this...

First, Amtrak pays the dining car waitstaff far, far more than what a restaurant pays its waitstaff. I believe that such prohibits a dining car from ever operating like a restaurant in costs.

Second, dining cars are open for service "bursty". They are closed for service between meal hours, giving to rather substantial "dead time" and poor utilization.

Third, Amtrak doesn't appropriate the proper amount of Sleeper Class fares to the dining car.

Forth, on many trains, there is direct on-board competition by café and lounge type cars, who offer food. I don't think there is that much potential business to support multiple food sources for passengers.
 
It looks like Roomettes already cost more than an equivalent coach seat and meals in the dining car.

A Bedroom also has a toilet and a shower (a Superliner Roomette does not have) and can be reserved for 3 people, all 3 of whom get to eat in the dining car.

I have a Roomette booked May 1 DEN - RNO (pretty close to 24 hours - 4 meals services.) and the Roomette cost me $185 for just the Roomette (no seat fares).

On March 18 the same Roomette DEN - RNO is $322.

On March 19/20 the same Roomette is - $185

During high season (say June 28) the same Roomette Den - RNO can be as much as $450.

Going by menu prices of meals (entrées, sides, deserts, and beverages) on most LD trains a sleeper passenger can spend about $75 for 3 meals., or $150 for 2 people.

On June 28 the total for a Roomette for 2 people from DEN to RNO is $697 - $451 for the Roomette and meals, $246 for 2 seat fares.

$451 - $150 = $301 for use of the sleeper berth for 24 hours and 1 night. And being a Superliner the Roomette pax have to share the 3 or 4 not-in-a-bedroom bathrooms on the car, and the one shared shower.
 
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Losing money is an accounting fiction.
Oh for crying out loud. Sure we can roll the cost of the diner into the sleeper service. But then we're using an accounting sleight of hand that uses sleeper profits to subsidize the diner, and people will complain (already do complain in fact) that this unfairly penalizes the finances of the sleeper service. Or we can keep them separate, but apparently that is also accounting fiction because they're an integral part of sleeper service. So no matter which you do it one part of the balance sheet is gonna look ugly.

I doubt that anyone at Amtrak is intentionally making diner service look bad. But the fact is, there is not enough money coming in from elsewhere to cover the costs of the diner. No matter how you do the books, that doesn't change.
 
Food service certainly does not amount to 83 percent of Amtrak's loses. There have been some reports that the cafe cars basically break even. Railroads traditionally lost money on their food service, but offered it because it is a necessity. Various efforts over the years to cut costs with paper plates, etc., haven't been all that successful. So, food service is needed for any trips over three hours or so. Dining cars are certainly needed on long distance trains. The whole who-hah over food service loses is just another effort by those who think government shouldn't be running trains to end the service altogether. The whole argument is political, not economic. No matter what efforts Amtrak makes to cut loses, it won't satisfy the right-wingers. You folks in the red states just have to vote them out of office.
 
If anyone believes that sleeper passengers are not paying enough, consider that a sleeping car (where passengers pay for the bed and the meals) is more profitable than coach is. In the sleeper you have an SCA. In coach you have a conductor and I have been on NEC trains where each car has a conductor or ticket taker. In many cases a roomette is priced at 5-8x what a coach seat sells for.

Rag on the sleeper passengers because of the meals and you take much of the incentive away from the very travelers that support the service most. The dining cars are there so you will fill the sleepers. Could you imagine the trouble selling a 24 -48 hr trip ticket without meal service?
 
Rag on the sleeper passengers because of the meals and you take much of the incentive away from the very travelers that support the service most. The dining cars are there so you will fill the sleepers. Could you imagine the trouble selling a 24 -48 hr trip ticket without meal service?
That's exactly why the right wing is going after the meal service--to kill Amtrak.
 
There was a discussion a while ago about cutting services that are not "essential." Many made the point that, particularly on LD trains, meal services are essential. I agree - man's gotta eat! One poster (I forget who it was) commented that 83% of Amtrak's losses (or over budget costs) are due to providing meal services.
This 83% of Amtrak losses figure that was posted here is incorrect and is based on adding NEC operating surplus to the state supported & LD service losses. The numbers are broken out in the monthly performance reports which are not that difficult to read.

The September 2014 monthly report has the key totals for fiscal year 2014. While the monthly report numbers are not the audited final numbers and, of course, are based on accounting allocations that can be argued over, they are useful for the purposes of this thread. In the September report on page A-2.2, the total Food & Beverage (F&B) system wide losses for FY14 was $155.967 million. This was an improvement over the F&B losses of $179 million in FY13. If the NEC F&B sales roughly break even as reported and the state subsidies cover the F&B losses for the state corridor trains, then we can attribute almost all of the $156 million in F&B losses to the LD trains.

Page C-1 has the Route Performance Numbers for FY14 with the following total fully allocated operating surplus and losses.

NEC = +$482.2 million

State supported = -$85.7 million

LD trains = -$529.6 million

Total national train system = -$133.1 million thanks to using the NEC surplus to cover the other 2 parts of the system.

If the $156 million in F&B losses is entirely attributed to the LD trains, then the percentage of LD losses due to F&B costs is $156/$529.6 = 29.5%.

So, if Amtrak were able to somehow completely eliminate F&B losses without accounting games, the LD trains would still lose $374 million. However, shifting accounting allocations are clearly part of the plan to protect the diner car operations so the total loss for LD trains would not shrink by that much due solely to F&B cost cutting. Still, any significant reduction in F&B losses that Amtrak can achieve helps to protect the LD train subsidies, just because F&B losses attract a disproportionate amount of political attention (ie, Mica and friends)
 
Note that the Maine-subsidized Downeaster has state-subsidized (& outsourced) cafe car offerings because they understand how important food & beverage service is to ridership. They set low prices and then make up the shortfall for the contractor, rather than have the contractor set high prices that customers can't afford. Are they wrong to do so? Well the whole service is subsidized and when your mandate is to get cars off the road and to reduce losses, you need to keep ridership as high as possible, and making the train a comfortable place to be is part and parcel of that.

The diners that are "losing money" are on trains that are "losing money" but Amtrak is at a point where cutting more trains would make the losses larger. They need to be running daily, not tri-weekly, trains and corridor services where applicable, and continue developing higher speed intermediate interstate service.

I do wonder how the cafe cars on the NEC fail to make a profit (and why they seem to be so poorly stocked with the good stuff--oh, nothing but junk food in plastic bags left? well, okay, I guess) but if that POS system ever gets up and running maybe that will change. It's an open secret that some employees have been robbing Amtrak blind for years. I guess the hammer will fall some day. Those Muni employees who were stealing bus passes out of maintenance division and selling them on street corners fifty cents on the dollar for a couple of decades probably never thought they would get caught either. Welp, times change.
 
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