Infrastructure and Operations ideas for the New York area

[railiner]

1. The closure of the Hell Gate section every night delays train # 66 and the preceding Acela until ~ 05:30 unless they take a longer delay arriving BIS ~10:00. These closures may go as long as the next three years?

Just wondering if during that period, they could detour between NYP and New Rochelle via Spuyten Duyvil and MN plus freight only trackage?
For day trains it would be impractical, but for an overnight 66/67, with its leisurely schedule, maybe possible?

 

[jis]

Just wondering if during that period, they could detour between NYP and New Rochelle via Spuyten Duyvil and MN plus freight only trackage?
For day trains it would be impractical, but for an overnight 66/67, with its leisurely schedule, maybe possible?

It is possible with power top and tail since it will involve a reversal at what used to be CP DV. Not much freight trackage either. Just the third leg of the Wye at Mott Haven. The dual mode power to drag it out of Penn Station could be dropped off at DV and in the reverse direction it could be attached at DV, assuming the train runs under diesel power to/from Boston. If it is to run electric from New Rochelle to Boston and vice versa then the dual power will have to hang on to push it to/from DV from/to New Rochelle.

 

[railiner]

It is possible with power top and tail since it will involve a reversal at what used to be CP DV. Not much freight trackage either. Just the third leg of the Wye at Mott Haven. The dual mode power to drag it out of Penn Station could be dropped off at DV and in the reverse direction it could be attached at DV, assuming the train runs under diesel power to/from Boston. If it is to run electric from New Rochelle to Boston and vice versa then the dual power will have to hang on to push it to/from DV from/to New Rochelle.

That looks like a better idea than using the Oak Point link…if they did it right, would probably be just a slightly longer trip than the normal route over the Hell Gate Bridge…

 

[west point]

IMO ( past my lifetime) what should be done is 60 hZ CAT from NYP up west side line to past CP DV. Make SV draw a high level flyover that will allow Antrak to access the 2 inner MNRR tracks eliminating most conflicts with MNRR. Restore the SE leg of the SV WYE that will flyover the station just to the east. ADD and restore CAT to New Rochelle. Also a wired CAT track connection to southbound Hell Gate route.

This will give duplicate access to / from NYP for Albany and New Haven lines when one route is blocked for any reason. Come to think it. maybe a few commuter trains each day to access opposite side of New York rather than normal routes now. Expensive ? Sure but NY needs every alternate it can get. Wonder if this might be a better alternative than the cross route being proposed? Certainly less expensive.

This way no dual mode locos needed for Amtrak. However, until all the CAT is energized the Airo train sets could travel the routes easily. Once all CAT M-8 type EMUs could run both routes except for NYP which in the far future could also get 60 hZ.

 

[railiner]

That looks like a better idea than using the Oak Point link…if they did it right, would probably be just a slightly longer trip than the normal route over the Hell Gate Bridge…

If they restored the removed leg of the Wye at Spuyten Duyvil, they wouldn't even have to reverse directions. I would imagine doing that and making it the normal route, would save Amtrak a huge expense of maintaining the entire Hell Gate Bridge route. They would have to deal with MN, and I don't know if that would be a good idea, or not.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I would imagine doing that and making it the normal route, would save Amtrak a huge expense of maintaining the entire Hell Gate Bridge route

If you mean for all traffic between NYP and BOS I don't think the empire connection would have the capacity to handle all that traffic in addition to the existing Empire Service. Plus you have the issue that the connection is not electrified the whole way with AC catenary so that would have to be added, or dual mode locos needed for all NEC trains.

 

[railiner]

The Hell Gate Bridge, and its long approaches, is probably by far, the largest piece of infrastructure in the entire system. Maintaining it must cost a fortune. I believe they could restore the missing leg of the Spuyten Duyvil wye, double track the Empire Connection, and string catenary over it and the Hudson Line for a much lower cost over time. Whether they could share the necessary tracks with MN, or perhaps have to add to it, is another matter.

On the other hand, once MN begins running some New Haven Line trains over the Hell Gate into Penn Station, will mean MN will have to contribute to the Hell Gate maintenance costs....

 

[PVD]

Halfway up the Hudson Line is MNRR, and they are committed to 3rd rail EMU and Diesel DM. Not sure if you could cost justify catenary for the volume of Amtrak traffic. And the Empire Connection ends in a single entry into NYP, so there is a slotting/timing that must be managed.

 

[jis]

Halfway up the Hudson Line is MNRR, and they are committed to 3rd rail EMU and Diesel DM. Not sure if you could cost justify catenary for the volume of Amtrak traffic. And the Empire Connection ends in a single entry into NYP, so there is a slotting/timing that must be managed.

Yup. IIRC at most about 12 tph combined both directions. But at present there is no plan to operate more than 4-6tph even after MNRR Hudson Line Penn Station access happens. So there is some flexibility for additional service.

Adding a second line will be enormously expensive. It is possible but very expensive, and it will add to conflicting moves driven congestion at A interlocking.

 

[John Santos]

IMO ( past my lifetime) what should be done is 60 hZ CAT from NYP up west side line to past CP DV. Make SV draw a high level flyover that will allow Antrak to access the 2 inner MNRR tracks eliminating most conflicts with MNRR. Restore the SE leg of the SV WYE that will flyover the station just to the east. ADD and restore CAT to New Rochelle. Also a wired CAT track connection to southbound Hell Gate route.

This will give duplicate access to / from NYP for Albany and New Haven lines when one route is blocked for any reason. Come to think it. maybe a few commuter trains each day to access opposite side of New York rather than normal routes now. Expensive ? Sure but NY needs every alternate it can get. Wonder if this might be a better alternative than the cross route being proposed? Certainly less expensive.

This way no dual mode locos needed for Amtrak. However, until all the CAT is energized the Airo train sets could travel the routes easily. Once all CAT M-8 type EMUs could run both routes except for NYP which in the far future could also get 60 hZ.

Are you proposing EVERY Hudson River line train that goes past Albany would change locos there? Or are you excluding Empire Service from Amtrak as it is a state supported service? The New York section of the LSL, the Adirondack, the Ethan Allen and the Maple Leaf also use the Hudson River line, are Amtrak, not NYS trains, and go past Albany. The choices would be swap locos in Albany, electrify all the lines (best but most expensive choice in my view), or Amtrak dual-modes.

How expensive (i.e. how many ROW bottle-necks are there) would it be to dual-track NYP to Spuyten Duyvil? How much would it increase capacity, especially as an emergency alternative to the Hell Gate Bridge?

 

[BlackDiamond]

Are you proposing EVERY Hudson River line train that goes past Albany would change locos there? Or are you excluding Empire Service from Amtrak as it is a state supported service? The New York section of the LSL, the Adirondack, the Ethan Allen and the Maple Leaf also use the Hudson River line, are Amtrak, not NYS trains, and go past Albany. The choices would be swap locos in Albany, electrify all the lines (best but most expensive choice in my view), or Amtrak dual-modes.

The LSL already swaps locos at ALB as the Diesels to/from the West end up on the Boston section and the NYP section gets a dual mode. Not sure about the other trains that go past ALB.

 

[PVD]

Ethan Allen and Maple Leaf are partially NY funded and Adirondack is NYS subsidized.

 

[jis]

Ethan Allen and Maple Leaf are partially NY funded and Adirondack is NYS subsidized.

I think the question at hand is not who funds what but what type of locomotive pulls the West/North of Albany trains.

The LSL already swaps locos at ALB as the Diesels to/from the West end up on the Boston section and the NYP section gets a dual mode. Not sure about the other trains that go past ALB.

The normal assignment is P32ACDM for the Empire Service NFL trains, P32ACDM at the front for the Ethan Allen with a P32ACDM in the back. The Adirondack and the Maple Leaf get P42s beyond Albany with an engine change at Albany.

The Ethan Allen has a direction reversal en route to Burlington, hence the top and tail configuration north of Albany. Eventually one of the two engines, the tail one out of Albany will be replaced by a Cabbage of some sort.

Regardless of all that, normally all Empire Corridor trains operate with P32ACDM out of and into NY Penn Station. There are relatively rare exceptions when they do operate occasionally with a straight P42 diesel.

If they restored the removed leg of the Wye at Spuyten Duyvil, they wouldn't even have to reverse directions. I would imagine doing that and making it the normal route, would save Amtrak a huge expense of maintaining the entire Hell Gate Bridge route. They would have to deal with MN, and I don't know if that would be a good idea, or not.

Given the mess of conflicts at the Mott Haven congestion point and the longer and much much slower route (the Hell Gate Line is 100+mph for significant part of its length), this will easily add at least 45 mins and possibly quite a bit more to the run from New Rochelle to New York Penn Station. I think it is a solution looking for a problem frankly.

 

[lordsigma]

On my Ethan Allen trip from Burlington to New York there was a P32ACDM leading south of Burlington with a regular P42 on the tail end. The P42 lead of course from the yard into the station. After the Rutland direction change the P42 then lead to the Rensselaer wye just north of the station, where they used the wye to change directions again so that the P32ACDM was leading. And the P42 was taken off the rear at the Albany station.

 

[jis]

On my Ethan Allen trip from Burlington to New York there was a P32ACDM leading south of Burlington with a regular P42 on the tail end. The P42 lead of course from the yard into the station. After the Rutland direction change the P42 then lead to the Rensselaer wye, where they again changed directions so that the P32ACDM was leading. And the P42 was taken off the rear at the Albany station.

Yes, that is the supposed alternative when enough P32ACDMs are not available. Ultimately the other end is supposed to be a Cabbage/Cab of some sort, since 5 cars certainly do not need 6-7000HP on a slow pokey route.