HSR supporters in Illinois are clueless

[Steve4031]

It seems like most of the improvements are happening south of Dwight for hsr. What us being done for the section between Dwight and Joliet? Thanks for the history. That explains alot.

Chicago-Dwight improvements are included in an unfunded application IL submitted entitled something like Chicago Hub Improvements. It also includes improvements Chicago-Rondout (Hiawatha line), Chicago-Aurora (BNSF line west for CZ/SWC/Quincy/Iowa trains), Chicago-Porter (virtually all Chicago-East trains), perhaps another stretch of line as well. Actually, now that I think of it, I don't believe the application actually proposed any construction on those segments, just studies to determine what improvements would be necessary to support full build-out of services proposed in the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative.

The full double-track future phase includes triple-track on the CHI-JOL segment. And, the (partially-funded) CREATE proposal includes rail-over-rail overpasses in a number of places CHI-JOL.

Of course, you asked JOL-DWT, and I didn't really answer that specifically.

You did provide new information though. I was aware of create projects and fly overs. But not the triple tracking. I would assume up would do some improvements up to where the new yard is.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Let us remember that UP is a large corporation. UP is not an evil operation hellbent on destroying passenger rail in this country; rather, UP is a typical American corporation who wants to make profits, huge profits, producing even huger bonuses. They will aim to make this profit at the expense of everyone- the people, its employees, its competitors, and the strength of the general economy. Thus, since Amtrak gets in their way a lot of the time, they want to remove Amtrak from the lines where it gets in their way.

Remove Amtrak from lines where Amtrak doesn't interfere with them at all? Why spend the time?

 

[afigg]

It seems like most of the improvements are happening south of Dwight for hsr. What us being done for the section between Dwight and Joliet? Thanks for the history. That explains alot.

From the Illinois application, of the $1.142 billion funding that Illinois applied for, $245 million is for contingencies, ie the reserve fund. If - and this is a big IF - Illinois can bring in the planned track and siding work in close to budget, they will have several hundred million to spend on other upgrade work on the corridor. Could double track part of the Alton to Dwight section, make improvements to the Alton to St. Louis section or improvements north of Dwight.

The service plan is odd with 3 high speed trains a day, one slow one and a slow Texas Eagle because of capacity and scheduling issues. Hopefully, if they don't have to spend the reserve on the current planned work, they can do enough other upgrades to have all the trains run faster. Also, for $1.1 billion, they really should be increasing service frequency with another daily train or two.

 

[Eric S]

The service plan is odd with 3 high speed trains a day, one slow one and a slow Texas Eagle because of capacity and scheduling issues. Hopefully, if they don't have to spend the reserve on the current planned work, they can do enough other upgrades to have all the trains run faster. Also, for $1.1 billion, they really should be increasing service frequency with another daily train or two.

I agree. I think it related to the fact that the Environmental Impact Statement (or some such report) for the project was completed back in 2003 or 2004 when there were only 3 trains/day on the line, the Texas Eagle and 2 pre-Lincoln Service trains (Ann Rutledge and State House). Hopefully once the project is completed, there will be no significant impediments to at least speeding up the "other" current Lincoln train and the Texas Eagle so all 5 trains/day run at higher speeds.

EDIT: And, if I remember correctly, the plan includes purchasing enough new equipment so that all 4 Lincoln trains/day run with the new equipment rather than 3 with new and 1 with current Amfleet/Horizon cars.

 

[afigg]

I agree. I think it related to the fact that the Environmental Impact Statement (or some such report) for the project was completed back in 2003 or 2004 when there were only 3 trains/day on the line, the Texas Eagle and 2 pre-Lincoln Service trains (Ann Rutledge and State House). Hopefully once the project is completed, there will be no significant impediments to at least speeding up the "other" current Lincoln train and the Texas Eagle so all 5 trains/day run at higher speeds.

EDIT: And, if I remember correctly, the plan includes purchasing enough new equipment so that all 4 Lincoln trains/day run with the new equipment rather than 3 with new and 1 with current Amfleet/Horizon cars.

You may be right on the reason for the odd 3 high speed trains/day in the application. With the rush to get the ARRA applications in, they may have re-used old schedule calculations for 3 higher speed daily trains and just stuck in the current run times for the 4th Lincoln service and Texas Eagle trains.

Of course, the current Horizons and Amfleet cars can run at 110 mph. But, when they are ready to officially launch the higher speed Chi-StL service, it makes sense to roll out brand new cars with the more modern amenities to help sell the service for the business travelers. The Illinois application calls for $60 million to buy 12 locomotives at $5m each and $120 million to buy 30 passenger cars at a rather padded $4 million each.

Amtrak ordered 130 Viewliner 2s for $298.1 million total, which works out to an average of $2.3 million a car. The order includes sleeper and diner cars which presumably cost more than a coach car. For $120 million total, Illinois may be able to buy 40 or more passenger cars if the price comes in under $3 million each. Of course, if Illinois order Talgos, then that will change the car count.

If the $180 million for rolling stock can go far enough, IL should look at buying enough equipment to support 5 to 6 daily Lincoln service trains. Although there will be constraints on track capacity even after the $1.1 billion is spent, until they find the funding to double track it. I think that if they can get the Chi-StL trip times down to as fast or faster than driving, that ridership will increase a lot more than projected in the application. Which means either longer trains or more trains.

 

[AlanB]

The Illinois application calls for $60 million to buy 12 locomotives at $5m each and $120 million to buy 30 passenger cars at a rather padded $4 million each.

Amtrak ordered 130 Viewliner 2s for $298.1 million total, which works out to an average of $2.3 million a car. The order includes sleeper and diner cars which presumably cost more than a coach car. For $120 million total, Illinois may be able to buy 40 or more passenger cars if the price comes in under $3 million each. Of course, if Illinois order Talgos, then that will change the car count.

If the $180 million for rolling stock can go far enough, IL should look at buying enough equipment to support 5 to 6 daily Lincoln service trains. Although there will be constraints on track capacity even after the $1.1 billion is spent, until they find the funding to double track it. I think that if they can get the Chi-StL trip times down to as fast or faster than driving, that ridership will increase a lot more than projected in the application. Which means either longer trains or more trains.

It's expected that they'll buy bi-level cars, which would cost more than single level cars; even single level cars that are sleepers and diners.

 

[Ben]

Was the application for equipment funded though? I thought the $1.1 billion was for tracks only and the equipment application was separate.

 

[afigg]

Was the application for equipment funded though? I thought the $1.1 billion was for tracks only and the equipment application was separate.

Looking through the 880 page application, the equipment order certainly appears to be part of the $1.142 billion application. The FRA list of selected ARRA HSIPR projects description for this project mentions rolling stock: "Improvements to track, signal, station and rolling stock to enable three of five current daily round-trips to operate at 110mph between Alton (near St. Louis) and Dwight (near Chicago)."

If the Illinois order is going to be for bi-level cars, then Illinois & Iowa could team with California to get a better price on a combined order. But I can see Talgo playing politics, dangling the prospect of a assembly plant in Illinois, and having the politicians overrule the carefully made plans of the DOT staff, and telling them to order Talgo train sets.

 

[Paulus Magnus]

The Illinois application calls for $60 million to buy 12 locomotives at $5m each and $120 million to buy 30 passenger cars at a rather padded $4 million each.

Amtrak ordered 130 Viewliner 2s for $298.1 million total, which works out to an average of $2.3 million a car. The order includes sleeper and diner cars which presumably cost more than a coach car. For $120 million total, Illinois may be able to buy 40 or more passenger cars if the price comes in under $3 million each. Of course, if Illinois order Talgos, then that will change the car count.

If the $180 million for rolling stock can go far enough, IL should look at buying enough equipment to support 5 to 6 daily Lincoln service trains. Although there will be constraints on track capacity even after the $1.1 billion is spent, until they find the funding to double track it. I think that if they can get the Chi-StL trip times down to as fast or faster than driving, that ridership will increase a lot more than projected in the application. Which means either longer trains or more trains.

It's expected that they'll buy bi-level cars, which would cost more than single level cars; even single level cars that are sleepers and diners.

No reason for bilevels to cost 4 million dollars. Metrolink's new bilevel cars were only about two million each and Oregon's latest Talgo train sets were about 1.4 million per car.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Was the application for equipment funded though? I thought the $1.1 billion was for tracks only and the equipment application was separate.

Looking through the 880 page application, the equipment order certainly appears to be part of the $1.142 billion application. The FRA list of selected ARRA HSIPR projects description for this project mentions rolling stock: "Improvements to track, signal, station and rolling stock to enable three of five current daily round-trips to operate at 110mph between Alton (near St. Louis) and Dwight (near Chicago)."

If the Illinois order is going to be for bi-level cars, then Illinois & Iowa could team with California to get a better price on a combined order. But I can see Talgo playing politics, dangling the prospect of a assembly plant in Illinois, and having the politicians overrule the carefully made plans of the DOT staff, and telling them to order Talgo train sets.

Nippon Sharyo (spelling?) has already opened a plant in Sterling, IL., to assemble 160 electric-powered commuter cars for Metra, so don't count them out on building double-deck corridor cars for Illinois.

 

[George Harris]

No reason for bilevels to cost 4 million dollars. Metrolink's new bilevel cars were only about two million each and Oregon's latest Talgo train sets were about 1.4 million per car.

The real question is not dollars per car, but dollars per seat.