Gardner's statement on House budget proposal

[Amtrakfflyer]

The “land cruise” moniker sure seems like a blast from the past. Under this management there’s nothing first class about Amtrak LD service and maybe that’s a good thing. If I was going to try to find something positive to say about management practices it would be they have definitely dispelled the notion of Amtrak being a first class land cruise. At best you‘ll get a hot meal, it may be fresh, it may not be and a bed. Basic transportation. Parlour cars are gone, lounges are gone on less popular routes, no more wine tastings, the list goes on. Management in its miserly ways, shortsighted or not can go before Congress and say with a straight face they are being good stewards of government funding and keep bipartisan support.

 

[lordsigma]

People who want to cut funding often talk about AMTRAK as being a "land cruise".
Let's just for a moment assume it is.

Explain, please, how actual sea cruises - which have much higher expenses - can do it without government help, and make a profit, but AMTRAK can't.

This isn't really a valid comparison. Its apples and oranges. Amtrak is a provider of transportation, essential in the case of some underserved areas, that also provides a premium offering and exists because providing that type of service isn't really a profitable enterprise, but in a civilized society we often offer such services because it's the right thing to do. While "land cruisers" are certainly a contributor to sleeper patronage on certain routes particularly out west, it's ultimately a fairly small part of ridership.

 

[lordsigma]

Basic transportation.

At least from my perspective a bed, and a car attendant putting down your bed for you and bringing you meals for room service on a train are not what I'd call "basic transportation." No I'm sure its not the good old days with wine tastings, parlor cars, etc, but as someone who never experienced those days and only started riding in the 2010s it's pretty first class when you compare it to many of the alternatives (driving, a bus, cattle car on a plane, or even Amtrak's own coach product.) It's not perfect and Amtrak has its issues that we discuss in many threads, but to call sleeper service "basic transportation" is in my opinion an exaggeration of the situation. From my perspective of my time as an Amtrak rider I'd say there was a kind of a steady decline in service that accelerated with Anderson, and plummeted and bottomed out during the worst of the pandemic, and then started an upward trend after. In some respects, on some routes, a number of aspects of the current product exceed the experience I had prior to COVID and on some routes maybe no so much. There are issues and concerns about how some things seem to be managed no doubt - exterior washing being nonexistent in the east, mechanical issues, and it wouldn't be Amtrak without inconsistencies in service at times. But there are positives too - traditional dining came back and is better than it was when it was cut, cafe offerings have been improved system wide, and they've been steadily bringing back some of the little things like complementary coffee, complementary soap and shampoo bottles, improved bedding, and starting a much needed interior fresh. I'm not sure basic transportation is really fair. But I guess we all have our point of view.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

At least from my perspective a bed, and a car attendant putting down your bed for you and bringing you meals for room service on a train are not what I'd call "basic transportation." No I'm sure its not the good old days with wine tastings, parlor cars, etc, but as someone who never experienced those days and only started riding in the 2010s it's pretty first class when you compare it to many of the alternatives (driving, a bus, cattle car on a plane, or even Amtrak's own coach product.) It's not perfect and Amtrak has its issues that we discuss in many threads, but to call sleeper service "basic transportation" is in my opinion an exaggeration of the situation. From my perspective of my time as an Amtrak rider I'd say there was a kind of a steady decline in service that accelerated with Anderson, and plummeted and bottomed out during the worst of the pandemic, and then started an upward trend after. In some respects, on some routes, a number of aspects of the current product exceed the experience I had prior to COVID and on some routes maybe no so much. There are issues and concerns about how some things seem to be managed no doubt - exterior washing being nonexistent in the east, mechanical issues, and it wouldn't be Amtrak without inconsistencies in service at times. But there are positives too - traditional dining came back and is better than it was when it was cut, cafe offerings have been improved system wide, and they've been steadily bringing back some of the little things like complementary coffee, complementary soap and shampoo bottles, improved bedding, and starting a much needed interior fresh. I'm not sure basic transportation is really fair. But I guess we all have our point of view.

Good points. But I think comparing long distance train travel amenities to air travel or even a bus and driving is apples to oranges. How many flights are 45-65 hours in length? Most of us wouldn’t consider being on Greyhound that long. You’re completely right it’s one’s perspective and needs. That said it’s nothing over the top anymore and we haven’t even touched on customer service which is can be extreme good or bad.

When you have red state republicans like Ted Cruz actually showing lukewarm support for the national system something in the narrative is hitting home.

 

[Bob Dylan]

People who want to cut funding often talk about AMTRAK as being a "land cruise".
Let's just for a moment assume it is.

Explain, please, how actual sea cruises - which have much higher expenses - can do it without government help, and make a profit, but AMTRAK can't.

Ships are Registered in Foriegn Countries,Low pay for most of the Crew, Casinos and Alcohol are Profit Centers, Passengers pay Port Charges.

 

[jis]

House's Budget Bills are in shambles as more than 5 Republicans decide to oppose the THUD Bill making it DOA on the House Floor.... The fact that it was Amtrak and transportation that caused the implosion is quite interesting and shows the far reaching effect that all the letters and telephone calls that many of us made has for the first time halted a Republican inspired attempt at cutting Amtrak very early in its track.

https://www.route-fifty.com/finance/2023/11/dispute-over-amtrak-funding-derailed-vote-thud/391933/
Having said that, my potted plant still voted for the bill.

 

[lordsigma]

Good points. But I think comparing long distance train travel amenities to air travel or even a bus and driving is apples to oranges. How many flights are 45-65 hours in length?

No and that is a good point. Obviously people are going to have higher expectations for rail service when you have to spend 30 hours as opposed to 3. But I think my point (which I make with all due respect) - with some newer riders by comparison like myself when you don’t know what you’re missing (things like wine tasting etc.) the perspective is a bit different. I’m sure Amtrak is relying on that a bit. When I first took Amtrak Ld (on the Auto Train) my perspective was I have an extreme anxiety flying and I can take a train with a bed and get a meal and not have to drive? Count me in. Ultimately despite some inconsistencies i still find it a very relaxing stress free way to travel and I enjoy meeting the interesting people. And while there are certainly inconsistencies I’ve been lucky enough that I’ve gotten more good attendants than lousy. That’s not to say I have no standards at all - I found the flex meals and some other things a downgrade (though I didn’t despise them obviously it’s not the same) and I’m very happy that they seem to be moving back away from that (with obvious prodding and pushing by the advocacy committee working to push them through legislation.)

 

[lordsigma]

House's Budget Bills are in shambles as more than 5 Republicans decide to oppose the THUD Bill making it DOA on the House Floor.... The fact that it was Amtrak and transportation that caused the implosion is quite interesting and shows the far reaching effect that all the letters and telephone calls that many of made has for the first time halted a Republican inspired attempt at cutting Amtrak very early in its track.

https://www.route-fifty.com/finance/2023/11/dispute-over-amtrak-funding-derailed-vote-thud/391933/

Great to hear and this is a great exercise. While this would have had no chance of passing one cannot rely exclusively on electing Democrats and there may be a day when one cannot rely on a friendly senate/president to bail us out. As is commonly stated by RPA advocates need to make allies on the republican side even in this highly polarized and sometimes Disfunctional time.

 

[jimdex]

People who want to cut funding often talk about AMTRAK as being a "land cruise".
Let's just for a moment assume it is.

Explain, please, how actual sea cruises - which have much higher expenses - can do it without government help, and make a profit, but AMTRAK can't.

Well, I think the premise is untrue, Amtrak routes are not land cruises. There ARE land cruise trains in America (such as the Rocky Mountineer), and they charge fares that will bring them a profit. They do not have the mandates that Amtrak faces as a taxpayer-supported enterprise, such as providing year-round daily or tri-weekly service, and detraining and boarding passengers at intermediate stops. It is interesting to note that the long-distance Amtrak route coming closest to profitability is Auto Train, which makes no intermediate stops.

 

[gregg_vw]

I'm jumping in here in the middle. Perhaps I'm not understanding the point of lending any support to calling Amtrak akin to land cruising. There are plenty of luxury trains around the world and the fares tend to be very high in order for them to be profitable. One takes such a train for a luxury "cruise," not to get from point A to B. The vast majority of Amtrak customers are commuters, or people who prefer to travel long distances by train, or those who can't drive, or elderly people (like me), and so forth. The vast majority are not sleeping car passengers. Even while paying through the nose for sleeper space today, a person cannot expect fine dining, recreational activities, "port stops," a bed that's truly comfortable or even a place to wash up in many cases. Luxury trains and Amtrak are apples and oranges. It seems to me that train travel, outside of actual "cruise" trains, burns fewer resources than flying or the mostly empty cars on highways. We're being foolish as a country not to promote it more.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Another note no ones mentioned is with the sky high fares the sleepers are pulling in more revenue than coach. So why criticize the part of the train bringing in the most revenue. Amtrak accounting being what it is the true numbers may be hard to define, either way it’s nice to see fewer and fewer Mica types. In fact, there’s more congressional pressure to provide better service not worse and people are willing to pay for it possibly helping the bottom line.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

Great to hear and this is a great exercise. While this would have had no chance of passing one cannot rely exclusively on electing Democrats and there may be a day when one cannot rely on a friendly senate/president to bail us out. As is commonly stated by RPA advocates need to make allies on the republican side even in this highly polarized and sometimes Dysfunctional time.

My impression is that Republicans are overall becoming more reasonable on the need for a balanced transportation system and there is less of the idea that Amtrak is some kind of creeping Socialism. OTOH our national debt has ballooned since the pandemic and that is concerning many people. Just interest on the national debt is now $1 Trillion.

 

[PaTrainFan]

My impression is that Republicans are overall becoming more reasonable on the need for a balanced transportation system and there is less of the idea that Amtrak is some kind of creeping Socialism. OTOH our national debt has ballooned since the pandemic and that is concerning many people. Just interest on the national debt is now $1 Trillion.

And Amtrak's subsidy isn't even a rounding error in the annual government budget.