Florida HSR Funds Sought

[jis]

Count me as another optimist -- though it has been difficult over these past few months, what with a governor from the Party Of "No." What do you say we at least talk about what has worked, what hasn't, in promotion of rail ?

Being an optimist does not mean that one will meet with success all the time or even most of the time. Success will come only occasionally. But irrespective of what happens one has to keep the eye on the ball, educate folks, show them how the rest of the world operates. Unfortunately, US has progressively become a most intensely navel gazing country, where the population is surprisingly unaware of anything that goes on anywhere beyond the immediate vicinity of their nose and eyes. Sharing the vision in a positive way without criticizing gratuitously, and countering false propaganda are two important aspects. In addition active participation in the planning process with the bureaucracy and even the advocates in order to try to save them from their own follies is a very useful activity too.

Sometimes it even becomes necessary to kill off an out of control project for the overall health of the bigger agenda. For example ARC would have been an unmitigated disaster for any (a) regional rail plans in the future and (b) Any intra-NJ plans (because it would have eaten up all local resources and then some for a decade or more) and © any Amtrak HSR plans would have been set back by decades. While it is fashionable to lump ARC in with what happened in Wisconsin and Ohio, it actually was a beast of a very different color. And actually if there had not been a huge amount of subterfuge and trying to hide skeletons in the closet which all came tumbling out when the Feds asked a few inconvenient question, all indications are that the Governor of NJ would have happily carried on with it. The basic lesson to learn from ARC is to be absolutely straightforward and get the truth out earlier rather than later. Unfortunately indications so far are that NJT has learned nothing from it. They are still battling NJ OPRA requests, and losing each of them and having to disclose the real truth eventually, thus reducing their credibility even further in a stepwise fashion. One thing that well meaning optimists can do is help blow the whistle on this kind of nonsense as early as possible so that so much time is not lost in bureaucrats lining their nests.

The bottom line is if you are an optimist you must be able to recover from a failure rapidly and join the battle for the next round, start building new coalitions, bring in new people who have been on the side lines or uninvolved. That's how the game is played. It is hard to keep people excited about a negative message for too long.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Just because I doubt most of my efforts will be profitable doesn't mean I don't give them my all.

 

[jcl653]

The Wall Street Journal has a nugget of news (to me) at the end of an article published today:

"The Federal Railroad Administration is expected to announce awards in coming days or weeks."

Read the article here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704099704576289452940073250.html

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The federally subsidized railroad, formally the National Railroad Passenger Corp., is lobbying for $1.3 billion in federal money to upgrade service on its Northeast Corridor between Boston and Washington so that trains could eventually reach 160 miles an hour. Amtrak's fastest Acela trains now average 85 miles an hour between New York and Washington.

What exactly is this 1.3 billion buying Amtrak? The Acela already reaches 150MPH and adding another 10MPH for a few minutes won't appreciably change the average speed over the whole length of the NEC. The cost of making 160 possible over most of the route would vastly exceed every last penny congress has approved. Leaving me with few if any reasons to support this request. Hopefully Amtrak will be able to fund additional improvements on the NEC through private credit and the FRA will put this public funding where private funds are unlikely or impossible to secure.

 

[jis]

Roughly speaking:

o $570 million for Portal bridge replacement with a matching $150 million from NJ totaling $720 million which is the total estimated cost of building a new high level two track fixed span and dismantling the existing swing bridge.

o $450 million for upgrade of Newark to Philadelphia signaling plus CT catenary between New Brunswick and Morrisville allowing 160mph operation of Acelas on that segment.

o $50? million for replacement of Pelham movable bridge on the New york Connecting Railroad/Hell Gate Line).

and a few other smaller requests. Of course Amtrak will not get all that it requests, but hopefully they will get the first one so that that rickety bridge can be replaced before the whole thing falls into the Hackensack River one of these days.

 

[afigg]

Roughly speaking:

o $50? million for replacement of Pelham movable bridge on the New york Connecting Railroad/Hell Gate Line).

and a few other smaller requests. Of course Amtrak will not get all that it requests, but hopefully they will get the first one so that that rickety bridge can be replaced before the whole thing falls into the Hackensack River one of these days.

Yes, it would be desirable to replace the Portal bridge before it either falls into the river or gets stuck open with no way to close it without weeks of repair. :help:

After the 2 big $570 million and $450 million dollar applications, Amtrak requested:

- $188 million for PE and EIS for Gateway project for 2 new tunnels under Hudson River with related infrastructure improvements.

- $50 million for PE and EIS for Penn Station south facility

- $15 million for PE and EIS for Pelham Bay Bridge replacement and evaluate track upgrades for a 5 mile stretch south of the bridge for higher speeds.

The Amtrak press release on the applications is at http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249224538367&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_ATK-11-040_AmtrakSeeks.pdf

I think Amtrak will be lucky if the Portal Bridge north replacement is funded and maybe part of the Gateway project PE for the 2 tunnels. But these applications all clearly would benefit the existing NEC with the PE and EIS projects to get the engineering & cost estimate work in place so the projects are eligible for construction funding when it becomes available.

 

[jis]

Ah yes. $15M not $50M for the Pelham bridge. My bad.

 

[Eric S]

IL gets a portion of the FL funds:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-illinois-gets-186m-in-rail-funds-florida-rejected-20110504,0,4302117.story

Is this the first such announcement of how the (now) $2 billion will be redistributed?

 

[afigg]

IL gets a portion of the FL funds:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-illinois-gets-186m-in-rail-funds-florida-rejected-20110504,0,4302117.story

Is this the first such announcement of how the (now) $2 billion will be redistributed?

This is the first news I've seen on who gets selected. I don't see anything on the US DOT website, so I think this is a notification to the Illinois politicians so they can put out a press release first to get credit, then LaHood & the FRA will follow up with a press release. Other states may have gotten the news today; have to check to see if there are other announcements by governors or Senators.

 

[Steve4031]

IL gets a portion of the FL funds:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-illinois-gets-186m-in-rail-funds-florida-rejected-20110504,0,4302117.story

Is this the first such announcement of how the (now) $2 billion will be redistributed?

This is the first news I've seen on who gets selected. I don't see anything on the US DOT website, so I think this is a notification to the Illinois politicians so they can put out a press release first to get credit, then LaHood & the FRA will follow up with a press release. Other states may have gotten the news today; have to check to see if there are other announcements by governors or Senators.

Well this is good for Illinois. Wonder what will happen with the joint equipment order. Also, how long till they actually start to work on the track?

 

[afigg]

Well this is good for Illinois. Wonder what will happen with the joint equipment order. Also, how long till they actually start to work on the track?

On the $806 million dollar rolling stock application, there is only a total of $2.03 billion to redistribute. I just don't see it getting funded this cycle, except maybe for a partial grant, enough to buy enough bi-levels for several other corridors than the already funded rolling stock for the Chicago-St. Louis corridor. The NEC and CA HSR project are likely to get a fair piece of the $2 billion.

Track work for the $186 million grant for the Joliet to Dwight section would presumably not start until 2012 at the earliest.

 

[afigg]

It appears that the announcement of the rest of the redistributions of the Florida HSR funds will be made next week: http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=201105051354dowjonesdjonline000564&title=us-rail-grants-to-come-out-next-week-transport-secretary

The Illinois Governor's press release on the award of the $186 million says that the US DOT notified Congress that $400 million of the funds have been reprogrammed: http://www.illinois.gov/PressReleases/ShowPressRelease.cfm?SubjectID=2&RecNum=9385 . So, if $400 million has been reprogrammed, have other states been notified that they are getting some or all of the $214 million left, but we have not seen it in the news yet? Or, maybe the $400 million is what is left of the FY2010 Florida funds and Illinois is getting the $186 million from the FY2010 funds because the state is providing a 25% match?

 

[jis]

It appears that the announcement of the rest of the redistributions of the Florida HSR funds will be made next week: http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=201105051354dowjonesdjonline000564&title=us-rail-grants-to-come-out-next-week-transport-secretary

The Illinois Governor's press release on the award of the $186 million says that the US DOT notified Congress that $400 million of the funds have been reprogrammed: http://www.illinois.gov/PressReleases/ShowPressRelease.cfm?SubjectID=2&RecNum=9385 . So, if $400 million has been reprogrammed, have other states been notified that they are getting some or all of the $214 million left, but we have not seen it in the news yet? Or, maybe the $400 million is what is left of the FY2010 Florida funds and Illinois is getting the $186 million from the FY2010 funds because the state is providing a 25% match?

Wasn't the $400 million from 2010 rescinded? Was there other 2010 money in there too?

 

[afigg]

Wasn't the $400 million from 2010 rescinded? Was there other 2010 money in there too?

There was a total of $800 million in FY2010 grants that went to the Florida HSR project. The House Republicans rescinded 1/2 of that, $400 million, leaving $400 million of FY2010 plus $1.6 billion of stimulus grants to be reprogrammed or redistributed by the FRA.

 

[afigg]

According to Transportation Nation, LaHood will be announcing the selections for the Florida HSR funds on Monday at Penn Station in NYC and in Detroit. So, I would figure Amtrak is going to get some funding for Portal Bridge and maybe the Gateway project PE, Michigan gets some more for the Detroit-Chicago corridor.

 

[jis]

According to the WSJ it is $450 million for NEC in NJ, $295 million for new grade separation of through tracks through Harold Interlocking. I suspect there is the $50 million tucked in there for the final design of the tunnel somewhere. No mention of Portal. If that is the case then it would appear that LaHood wants to have something concrete to show in the high speed arena in short order and NJ has been chosen for the first 160mph service in the US. But we'll see for sure in a couple of hours.

 

[afigg]

Looks like Michigan is getting just about the entire $208 million they requested for the Chicago - Detroit corridor. Article "Michigan to get $200M for high-speed rail" at http://www.detnews.com/article/20110509/METRO05/105090361/1409/METRO/Michigan-to-get-$200M-for-high-speed-rail . Hard to argue with that selection as it represents a significant bang for the buck project.

I'm surprised that the Harold interlocking project would get funding, because I gather that was already a planned part of the East Side Access project. If Portal Bridge replacement does not get selected, what are the other options for funding it in the near future? But we have to wait for the actual US DOT & FRA press release because the mainstream press all too often mangles the information they are provided when it is not straightforward.

 

[jis]

I'm surprised that the Harold interlocking project would get funding, because I gather that was already a planned part of the East Side Access project.

The Amtrak portion of Harold Interlocking ( grade separated high speed lines skipping most of the interlocking)was not funded. First LIRR tried to apply for it, but FTA told them that they are capped by the original ESA FFGA. So it was either upto Amtrak to get the money or for LIRR to drain their fast depleting capital funds to pay for it. Hence Amtrak applied for it and apparently they are getting it.

We have to wait for the actual numbers and projects, but my guess is that Portal will eventually get packaged together with the Gateway Tunnels. It is kind of hard to nail down and build Portal without knowing for sure what the guiding operating plan will be for Gateway, which is somewhat up in the air, without making a lot of guesses and hence potentially wasteful construction that will need to be eventually torn down and rebuilt, specially the interlockings (Swift, Portal and possibly Erie and Bergen) and approach tracks.

OTOH, the $450 million in NJ gives something visible and high speed, with 160mph service and better track utilization with shorter blocks. It is a relatively high bang for the buck capacity and speed enhancement.

Again, just a guess. We'll know for sure in a couple of hours.

 

[afigg]

The US DOT press release is now available at http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2011/dot5711.html. A lot of piece meal grants here to spread the money around.

The eastern Keystone came up short with $40 million for the interlocking and track improvements near Harrisburg PA. Maybe this a way of nudging Congressman Bill Shuster (R-PA) to put support behind intercity passenger rail in the FY2012 and the Transportation Authorization bill so more money can be made available to the Keystone corridor next year.

Only $300 million for CA HSR which is likely to disappoint the supporters in CA.

Only $30 million more for the New Haven to Springfield corridor, but they already have enough funding to get a lot of double tracking and improvements done.

 

[saxman]

Wow, Texas got $15 million for a DFW to Houston line! Amazing.

 

[jis]

The US DOT press release is now available at http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2011/dot5711.html. A lot of piece meal grants here to spread the money around.

The eastern Keystone came up short with $40 million for the interlocking and track improvements near Harrisburg PA. Maybe this a way of nudging Congressman Bill Shuster (R-PA) to put support behind intercity passenger rail in the FY2012 and the Transportation Authorization bill so more money can be made available to the Keystone corridor next year.

Only $300 million for CA HSR which is likely to disappoint the supporters in CA.

Only $30 million more for the New Haven to Springfield corridor, but they already have enough funding to get a lot of double tracking and improvements done.

My understanding is that with that $30 million they pretty much got complete funding when taken together with CT contribution to complete the project.

A pleasant surprise for us in the New York/New jersey/Connecticut region.

The full funding of the 4th platform track and new Schenectady station is icing on top of the cake IMHO.

There will be significant effect (very positive) on both Amtrak and NJT operations on the NEC between Edison and Trenton. NJ will willy nilly get the nation's first 160mph railroad!!! And we also get CT catenary! This will bring Newark - Philly in 45 mins on Acela almost within reach, will be a couple mins short I think. I think it will be a smidgen under 48 mins, making it the first segment in the US with many trains doing over 100mph average speed.

The changes in signaling will improve track utilization and general train performance for both NJT and Amtrak. Just the signl issues will probably go towards shaving a minute or two.

The Harold grade separated bypass for Amtrak will save a cool 2 to 3 minutes on the Boston run.

Also those new cars and locomotives for the Midwest and California is very very good news not only for the Midwest and California but potentially for the Northeast too.

And of course the Traveler gets a third track at KIN too!

 

[afigg]

My understanding is that with that $30 million they pretty much got complete funding when taken together with CT contribution to complete the project.

CT applied for $227 million for the New Haven - Springfield line. Don't know how much of that was to complete the double tracking, fix bridges, or to upgrade grade crossings for >79 mph speeds.

There will be significant effect (very positive) on both Amtrak and NJT operations on the NEC between Edison and Trenton. NJ will willy nilly get the nation's first 160mph railroad!!! And we also get CT catenary! This will bring Newark - Philly in 45 mins on Acela almost within reach, will be a couple mins short I think. I think it will be a smidgen under 48 mins, making it the first segment in the US with many trains doing over 100mph average speed.

Now people won't have to travel to RI or MA to get the 150+ mph speeds! Although the benefits of 135 to 160 mph over a 24 mile segment is not all that great on reducing trip times. To get the average speed up between NYP or Newark and Philly, Amtrak needs to improve the slow 60-70 mph stretch in north Philly. Still, since the NYP to Philly is the most heavily traveled part of the NEC, having a high speed run there will help sell the Acela service.

The Harold grade separated bypass for Amtrak will save a cool 2 to 3 minutes on the Boston run.

Any improvements on the NYP-BOS section are welcome. Now, about that 30 year goal of a 3 hour NYP-BOS trip time...

 

[stntylr]

Wow, Texas got $15 million for a DFW to Houston line! Amazing.

Isn't that the largest amount yet Texas has gotten for High Speed Rail.

Texas must be back on the good side of the FRA after the Texas T-Bone fiasco.

 

[jis]

My understanding is that with that $30 million they pretty much got complete funding when taken together with CT contribution to complete the project.

CT applied for $227 million for the New Haven - Springfield line. Don't know how much of that was to complete the double tracking, fix bridges, or to upgrade grade crossings for >79 mph speeds.

I meant for double tracking. That in and of itself doesn;t get you to 110mph all the way.

Now people won't have to travel to RI or MA to get the 150+ mph speeds! Although the benefits of 135 to 160 mph over a 24 mile segment is not all that great on reducing trip times. To get the average speed up between NYP or Newark and Philly, Amtrak needs to improve the slow 60-70 mph stretch in north Philly. Still, since the NYP to Philly is the most heavily traveled part of the NEC, having a high speed run there will help sell the Acela service.

Just the 24 miles of 160 instead of 135 gets you almost 2 mins. But there are many more miles that go from 110 and 125 to 125 and 135 respectively. Also shorter blocks allows trains to run at higher speeds in front of eventual adverse signals, which adds another 2 or 3 minutes. So the non stop runtime from Newark to Philly will go down from 54/53 mins to 49/48 mins or so, is my back of the envelope guess. New York to Philly time goes to 63 mins or so with one stop in Newark.

More impressively, the Acela that stops at both Metropark and Trenton will probably become the fist schedule in the US to have a start to stop average between those two stations of greater than 110 mph.

NJT will really need to get on the ball and get the outer zone expresses certified to run at 125 so that they can get out of the way faster ahead of these faster trains on tracks 2 and 3.

The Harold grade separated bypass for Amtrak will save a cool 2 to 3 minutes on the Boston run.

Any improvements on the NYP-BOS section are welcome. Now, about that 30 year goal of a 3 hour NYP-BOS trip time...

This is actually a major operational win. It removes the very inconvenient set of conflicts that exist at Harold East between LIRR and Amtrak. This will improve throughput of both LIRR and Amtrak, and save Amtrak a couple of minutes on its run from Gate to the tunnels, since they will be able to zip along at 90 instead of slowing down to 45 or slower to cross over LIRR to get to/from the right tunnels.

 

[Anderson]

I'm really glad to see the CTC funded for at least some of the line up there. Honestly, this is probably the best batch I've seen...improvements to the NEC mainline and to the two big corridors out of Chicago.

One question: With CA, how long will this make the HSR segment (or segments) in total?