If the train was full in peak season, even if no tour passengers were aboard, you would have the same problems in the SSL in the most scenic spots. We have already had plenty of posts on this board about people tying up space unfairly where nobody was sitting. Didn't seem like anyone had a good solution for that. Heck of a lot harder to deal with seats taken by actual passengers. A single SSL is not sufficient for the few hours of peak viewing times on certain routes every day, but probably could not be economically justified for its added cost over the whole route.
Experiences with Rail Tours and Group Travel on Amtrak
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seat38a
Engineer
Yeah they will get right on it to make changes, because what we think really matters to their business.
Unless its Amtrak coming down on them WHAT WE THINK matters little to them.
PaulM
Engineer
About breakfast approaching Denver. It (as I'm sure you know) is always first come, first serve; and then a wait list is started . So unless you arrived when there was still space and were tuned away because you weren't of the group, or there were separate wait lists, one for the group and one for the rest, with the former having priority, then you are wrong.
The fact that a lot of other passengers beat you to breakfast does not make tour groups bad.
I usually get off in Denver and hate having to get up so early to get breakfast, but that's the way the schedule works.
crescent-zephyr
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Correct. Obviously it would cost money
What I find crazy about the complaints about the tour groups taking up space is that if the train was sold out by normal means, you'd still have the space issue. It's not like they added a sleeper or coach car but did not add an add'l SSL or diner to handle the additional passengers.
Not being quite as clairvoyant as you seem to be, I still think it'd be a good idea to let them know our feelings. And as you implied, maybe Amtrak should also be made aware of all this stuff. Otherwise, the situation is not likely to change.Yeah they will get right on it to make changes, because what we think really matters to their business.
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OlympianHiawatha
Engineer
While the number of souls may be the same, the tour groups often act as a single large entity, blocking out Diner and SSL space en mass.
crescent-zephyr
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Can you describe how you have seen this done?
I've seen small groups from vacations by rail sitting together in the ssl... But I've never seen them block off seats. Same for the diner... I've been seated with members of tour groups for meals so I know they don't block off tables or seatings just for groups.
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Topic is reopened. Let's discuss tour groups and Amtrak, but avoid making it personal with other posters and their opinions.
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A couple Dining Car simple suggestions, 1. The tour director can not block out huge blocks of seats like breakfast, everyone is on their own. 2. Those on the tour like to sit and talk after their meals, but this slows the table turn over that the Dining Car is expecting in order to not run out of time. I think the LSA could politely ask if they would like a refil for the SSL or something similar, or something like we have a lot of people to feed waiting for their number to be called. Something polite that the seats are needed. As far as the SSL, on the CZ, there are just too many people, tour group or not, during the summer for one SSL.
Ryan
Court Jester
1. Have you ever seen seats go empty because they were blocked for a tour while others stood there and waited?
2. How is that any different than any other passenger not a part of a tour?
2. How is that any different than any other passenger not a part of a tour?
This brings up an interesting comparison....anyone know the ratio between total revenue seats (or berths), and SSL upper level, as compared with the original Vista-Dome California Zephyr?
IIRC, coach passengers on the latter were permitted in any of the three or four coach domes, but Pullman passengers got exclusive use of the dome in the coffee shop car, as well as the dome in the rear lounge observation car....
ehbowen
Engineer
Interesting question! Well, when the CZ was nearly new in 1950, it rostered a tail end dome observation-sleeper (sleeping capacity 9), two 10-6 sleepers (22 each, or 44 more), and a 16-section sleeper which would have a normal capacity of 32 (but you could share a section berth with a second passenger if you didn't mind being cozy). So, a normal capacity of 81, and two domes reserved for sleeper passengers with a capacity of 24 each. So 81 passengers had access to 48 dome seats reserved exclusively for their use, plus a lounge on the main floor level in the tail-end observation car (which apparently could seat 36 more). [Reference: "Cars of the California Zephyr"] For the coach passengers there were three dome coaches with a capacity of 42 passengers each; each coach had a dome which could accommodate 24 sightseers. In addition, coach passengers had access to the lounge area (but not the dome) of the mid-train dome-buffet-lounge.
A standard Superliner sleeper these days has an all-up capacity of 42. The present-day CZ usually runs with two through the mountains, plus I suppose they could sell a few of the rooms in the trans-dorm. Say 92 passengers maxed-out. It normally runs with two or three coaches; a Superliner coach seats 75 (or 62 for a coach/baggage or snack coach). So we're talking roughly 220 passengers sharing the facilities of a single Sightseer lounge, which accommodates...what, roughly 60 or so on the upper level, plus about another 20 in the lower level cafe?
We're making progress, but I don't think it's in the right direction....
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The CZ had three sleepers this summer and four coaches. The Conductor said they had about 400 on the train. He said most days in the summer had this number.
seat38a
Engineer
One does not need clairvoyance to see that the the tour company will have a good laugh at your email with I'm sure some nice choice words among the staff members. I DON'T SEE a problem here that needs to be addressed by Amtrak. Tour groups are paying there fare and can do whatever they want on the train just like anyone else as long as they are not breaking any of Amtrak's rules. What is next? Are we going to try and limit the big group of Amish for whatever reason when they rub an AU member the wrong way? What are you going to tell Amtrak?No being as clairvoyant as you seem to be, I still think it'd be a good idea to let them know our feelings. And as you implied, maybe Amtrak should also be made aware of all this stuff. Otherwise, the situation is not likely to change.Yeah they will get right on it to make changes, because what we think really matters to their business.
"Dear Amtrak,
Tour groups are full of mean people and they take up all the lower priced buckets. They also eat among themselves during meals and don't want to talk to us. Please please tell the tour company to inform their customers to play nice with us AU members and if they do not cooperate, please ban tour groups from taking Amtrak.
Sincerely,
AU Member
"
:blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:
Maybe they will - maybe they won't. It all depends on the wording of the email containing the link.
But thanks for the snarky reply. It just earned you a spot on my Ignore List. 'Bye.
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Here's some thinking outside the box, albeit a VERY long term solution:
If and when Amtrak has funding (huh?) to replace Superliner equipment, it should consider making all the cars in the consist except baggage cars with MUCH larger windows, extending into the ceiling, much like Rocky Mountaineer coaches. That way everyone gets great views! Yes, larger drapes or blinds will be required during sleeping hours. And yes, sleepers might require a slightly different configuration. Both are doable.
Then the lounge car will function mostly as a place to buy snacks, drinks, and socialize just like it always has but the overcrowding during peak scenery should subside considerably.
If and when Amtrak has funding (huh?) to replace Superliner equipment, it should consider making all the cars in the consist except baggage cars with MUCH larger windows, extending into the ceiling, much like Rocky Mountaineer coaches. That way everyone gets great views! Yes, larger drapes or blinds will be required during sleeping hours. And yes, sleepers might require a slightly different configuration. Both are doable.
Then the lounge car will function mostly as a place to buy snacks, drinks, and socialize just like it always has but the overcrowding during peak scenery should subside considerably.
You'd still want the SSL seating for those on the lower level. The coaches also would lose overhead storage if we wanted to make the windows large. Maybe not a dealbreaker for some, but I'd argue that more passengers appreciate having a place to stash stuff right above their seat more than having a larger window. (You'd also need to find a place to store all those extra bags or find the luggage racks even more full than they are now.)
seat38a
Engineer
I'll try not to loose sleep over your ignore list. :wacko: :wacko: Don't forget to tell the tour company and Amtrak in your letter that you have a ignore list you'll put them on if you don't get the answer you like or if your feelings get hurt. Maybe it will jolt them to action.
Ryan
Court Jester
That'll definitely do the trick!
It's an unusual world where "common sense" can be considered "clairvoyance". I'm sure that businesspeople everywhere look to Internet Forums for advice on how to run their businesses. Think of all of the good ideas Amtrak management have gotten from armchair railroaders such as the fine group assembled here.
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The only time I was ever on a Rocky Mountaineer coach, it was deadheading on The Canadian. No passengers. Some things being stored in a few seats. Didn't go below.
Does anyone know how the RM handle issues like storage? I know it's a daylight only trip, but passengers still have luggage (checked thru in a separate baggage car?) and smaller items that would otherwise go in overhead racks. Wonder how that's accommodated within each car? If they had expanded storage downstairs it might work out OK.
Yes, I would hope this scenario, if it ever came to be, would still include a next-generation SSL. For any passengers sitting in lower levels who could make it upstairs and thus to the SSL (some physically challenged might not), as well as in service for sandwiches, snacks, drinks of all types, souvenirs--and of course socializing by anyone just like lounge cars of many flavors always have been.
The baggage is trucked to the hotel. When you get to Kamloops and Banff/Jasper, you are handed your hotel room key and taken to Toronto hotel. The bags are already in your room.
In the morning, you just leave the bags and they are again trucked to your next hotel and placed in your rm.
A very slick operation.
In the morning, you just leave the bags and they are again trucked to your next hotel and placed in your rm.
A very slick operation.
By chance I came across the East April 26, 1942 -West Time Tables for the Pennsylvania RR from in some old WWII papers from my father. There was a lot of interesting stuff but I thought the following was particularly appropriate to this thread.
Under the topic "if you have to wait" was the following statement:
"We know it is pleasant to linger and chat, but in times like these we've all got to think of 'the other fellow." Cooperation and consideration count as never before."
Under the topic "if you have to wait" was the following statement:
"We know it is pleasant to linger and chat, but in times like these we've all got to think of 'the other fellow." Cooperation and consideration count as never before."
