Does current California Zephyr have any similarities to the orginal?

[KmH]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak#Formation

Of the 26 railroads still offering intercity passenger service in 1970, only six declined to join Amtrak.

It is my understanding that prior to Nixon signing the Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970, unless they had previously gone bankrupt, railroads that provided passenger service had to get permission from the federal Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) to discontinue passenger rail service.

 

[zephyr17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak#Formation

Of the 26 railroads still offering intercity passenger service in 1970, only six declined to join Amtrak.

It is my understanding that prior to Nixon signing the Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970, unless they had previously gone bankrupt, railroads that provided passenger service had to get permission from the federal Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) to discontinue passenger rail service.

Yes, they did.

The National Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970 provided a carrot and a stick for railroads to join Amtrak. The carrot was that any railroads joining Amtrak could discontinue all intercity passenger service May 1,1971 through discontinuation petitions which would be automatically approved. The stick was any railroad not joining Amtrak would not be able to submit any discontinuance petitions to the ICC until 1975.

There was a cost to joining Amtrak. The railroads would have to pay a certain percentage of their passenger losses over a set period (don't recall the details, just the overall approach) to Amtrak, that provided Amtrak's initial capital. It could be either in cash or in kind (passenger equipment).

The railroads that didn't join did not for various reasons:

Rock Island could not afford it and their equipment wasn't in good enough shape to be used for in kind.

Southern had been successful enough in pruning their passenger services that they felt they could continue their existing passenger services at minimal loss for a few years until they could again petition.

D&RGW objected to the contract requiring Amtrak to have First Class status and priority. They felt it would interfere with dispatching on their single track mountain railroad. Parenthetically, the famed RGZ was a SECOND Class train in the timetable, with many freights having priority over it.

Don't know the details about the other RRs that did not join. One thing was that NO ONE at the time thought Amtrak would last much beyond 1975, it was seen as a fig leaf and decent burial for the intercity passenger train.

WP had no motivation to join Amtrak, they no longer had passenger service, and they didn't. Amtrak did not have a choice to run over the WP even if they wanted to. My understanding is they did sign a contract that would allow Amtrak to detour over the WP in case of emergency.

Finally, I have thought for a long time that had the RRs foreseen that they'd still be hosting Amtrak in 2017, none of them would have joined Amtrak. They would have eaten the losses for a few more years, and started to petition for discontinuance when it opened up in 1975, and almost all trains would have been gone by about 1980 at the latest.

 

[railiner]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak#Formation

Of the 26 railroads still offering intercity passenger service in 1970, only six declined to join Amtrak.

It is my understanding that prior to Nixon signing the Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970, unless they had previously gone bankrupt, railroads that provided passenger service had to get permission from the federal Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) to discontinue passenger rail service.

Yes, they did.

The National Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970 provided a carrot and a stick for railroads to join Amtrak. The carrot was that any railroads joining Amtrak could discontinue all intercity passenger service May 1,1971 through discontinuation petitions which would be automatically approved. The stick was any railroad not joining Amtrak would not be able to submit any discontinuance petitions to the ICC until 1975.

There was a cost to joining Amtrak. The railroads would have to pay a certain percentage of their passenger losses over a set period (don't recall the details, just the overall approach) to Amtrak, that provided Amtrak's initial capital. It could be either in cash or in kind (passenger equipment).

The railroads that didn't join did not for various reasons:

Rock Island could not afford it and their equipment wasn't in good enough shape to be used for in kind.

Southern had been successful enough in pruning their passenger services that they felt they could continue their existing passenger services at minimal loss for a few years until they could again petition.

D&RGW objected to the contract requiring Amtrak to have First Class status and priority. They felt it would interfere with dispatching on their single track mountain railroad. Parenthetically, the famed RGZ was a SECOND Class train in the timetable, with many freights having priority over it.

Don't know the details about the other RRs that did not join. One thing was that NO ONE at the time thought Amtrak would last much beyond 1975, it was seen as a fig leaf and decent burial for the intercity passenger train.

WP had no motivation to join Amtrak, they no longer had passenger service, and they didn't. Amtrak did not have a choice to run over the WP even if they wanted to. My understanding is they did sign a contract that would allow Amtrak to detour over the WP in case of emergency.

Finally, I have thought for a long time that had the RRs foreseen that they'd still be hosting Amtrak in 2017, none of them would have joined Amtrak. They would have eaten the losses for a few more years, and started to petition for discontinuance when it opened up in 1975, and almost all trains would have been gone by about 1980 at the latest.

I think you may be right, on that last point....probably the only trains to survive would be the NEC and branches, several California and Chicago corridor's, and that would be it...with perhaps a few "land cruise" type trains occasionally covering the other routes...

 

[NS VIA Fan]

In May 1971 there was another US passenger train operator: Canadian Pacific with their Atlantic Limited....making six stops in the US on 200 mile of CPR track across the State of Maine....and it did have a car very similar to one on the California Zephyr....a Skyline Dome.

The Atlantic Limited was the last passenger train serving Maine until the Downeaster.... but essentially a Canadian train “just passing through”. It continued to run for a number of years after the formation of Amtrak.

 

[railiner]

In May 1971 there was another US passenger train operator: Canadian Pacific with their Atlantic Limited....making six stops in the US on 200 mile of CPR track across the State of Maine....and it did have a car very similar to one on the California Zephyr....a Skyline Dome.

The Atlantic Limited was the last passenger train serving Maine until the Downeaster.... but essentially a Canadian train just passing through. It continued to run for a number of years after the formation of Amtrak.

By the time the Atlantic Limited was discontinued, it was no longer a CP train, but a VIA Rail train.....not sure, but I believe they were considered the same "status" as Amtrak, and did not answer to the ICC ( if in fact, it itself still existed

At that point).

 

[ehbowen]

Finally, I have thought for a long time that had the RRs foreseen that they'd still be hosting Amtrak in 2017, none of them would have joined Amtrak. They would have eaten the losses for a few more years, and started to petition for discontinuance when it opened up in 1975, and almost all trains would have been gone by about 1980 at the latest.

I think you may be right, on that last point....probably the only trains to survive would be the NEC and branches, several California and Chicago corridor's, and that would be it...with perhaps a few "land cruise" type trains occasionally covering the other routes...

On the other hand, it might possibly have motivated states and municipalities who realized how much they missed passenger service to pony up real money in order to keep it...particularly after the sheikhs reset the gas pumps in 1973.

 

[railiner]

And on the other hand (I know, only have two hands ),

once a route becomes dormant, it is much harder to restore train service...

 

[PerRock]

The Georgia RR ran mixed passenger and freight trains over three routes from freight yards, on very loose schedules for several years, that were really only suitable for railfans to ride. They only offered coach service, which could even be in a caboose at times...

They eventually received permission to discontinue service.

In the UK a service similar to that is called a "Parliamentary train." Just a fun little FYI.

peter

 

[zephyr17]

Finally, I have thought for a long time that had the RRs foreseen that they'd still be hosting Amtrak in 2017, none of them would have joined Amtrak. They would have eaten the losses for a few more years, and started to petition for discontinuance when it opened up in 1975, and almost all trains would have been gone by about 1980 at the latest.

I think you may be right, on that last point....probably the only trains to survive would be the NEC and branches, several California and Chicago corridor's, and that would be it...with perhaps a few "land cruise" type trains occasionally covering the other routes...

On the other hand, it might possibly have motivated states and municipalities who realized how much they missed passenger service to pony up real money in order to keep it...particularly after the sheikhs reset the gas pumps in 1973.

One of the alternatives to Amtrak proposed was to directly subsidize the railroads to run trains, which was dropped in favor of the NRPC proposal. Throughout the late 1960s there was significant resistance to dropping trains by local towns and states (California Public Utilities Commission was practically at war with the SP). ICC discontinuance petitions, once routine, were often fiercely resisted and frequently denied. That resistance, in conjunction with unsustainable railroad losses were what led to Amtrak. By 1970 it was perceived that something HAD to be done pretty much immediately about passenger rail, and NRPC/Railpax/Amtrak was the funnel for the money that was ponied up to save trains/provide a decent burial. Train service, long distance train service in particular, was seen as a largely federal issue, as it had been federally regulated for decades at that point.

Parenthetically, it was the 1973 gas crisis that really saved Amtrak largely by resurrecting travel in the NEC. After that the long term deal was the rest of the country could have it's skeletal system and the Northeast could have the NEC which the rest of the country would help pay for.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

When Amtrak was formed the WP route between Winnemucca and Sacramento was mostly single track, while the SP route between Reno and Sacramento was mostly double track. (Much for the second track east of Emigrant Gap to the summit has since been removed.). So the route over the SP had less conflicts with freight traffic and was generally somewhat faster.

Aren't those formerly competing routes run as "directional" for freight (for the most part anyways)?

 

[zephyr17]

Not ex-WP Feather River, ex-SP Donner Pass over the Sierra. SP & WP entered a shared track agreement through Nevada that allowed direction running, eastbound on the WP, westbound on the SP between Weso (near Winnemucca) and and Alazon (near Wells). That practice is followed to this day by UP. In Utah, they also started directional running between about Garfield, UT and Salt Lake City sometime after the merger.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Thanks, that's right.... I wonder if they will ever double-track over Donner again?

 

[ehbowen]

If the freight traffic comes back, or if someone offers a suitable incentive to add passenger capacity...I bet they would. After all, the right-of-way is already in place and graded; UP uses it as an access road for service vehicles.

 

[chakk]

So, adding the second track again might lose the service road. Several of the tunnels in the single-track section can not hold two-tracks without substantial enlarging to allow double-stack freight trains to use both lines.