Do roomette doors lock?

[BCL]

Yes. The VIA Renn Sleepers have hotel like card keys for each room. When you check in with the SCA you get your card key, and you need it to get into your room. Indeed, I don't see any technical hurdle to even an NFC device being used as a key if the infrastructure is set up properly. An additional $6000 isn't exactly going to break the bank in a $3 million car. So to me it seems we are observing yet another knee-jerk defense of whatever Amtrak does or does not do going on here.

I'm not sure that I agree that it's as knee-jerk as you think - there's more to the system than just the install cost. There's the cost to maintain it (both preventative and corrective), the training cost to teach SCAs how to use it and how to program keys, the supply of key cards, etc. On the non-monitary front, it's the additional time demands on the SCA to encode the keys, recode replacement keys when someone inevitably loses theirs, and having to deal with complaints when the system breaks, and the "hey, this person broke into my 'locked' room, now Amtrak is responsible for replacing my stuff" situations.
Given that it's a solution in search of a problem, it's not surprising to me that Amtrak hasn't shown any outward interested in pursuing it.

I've seen basic hotel card-key systems being programmed. It can be extremely easy. Just program the number of keys, the room number, and the checkout date. I've even seen some systems that do this standalone without being linked to a reservations system. Something like this:

I'm not saying there's a need, but it's not terribly difficult. Now that they've got portable card readers, it would be possible to have combination readers/encoders.

 

[xyzzy]

FWIW, Via has 280 rooms in inventory under the Renaissance keycard system. The Viewliner II order will give Amtrak roughly 4000 rooms in total across the Viewliner and Superliner fleets. Retrofitting 4000 rooms would be a significant expense.

I suspect, although I don't know for certain, that no Ren sleeper room is sold more than once on the same run. I also suspect that the Ren keycard system arose from European requirements, where sleeper security has traditionally been viewed as questionable.

 

[R30A]

Furthermore, I think it is worthwhile to point out that the VIA rail Rennaisance system is not very good in my experience. It only seemed to work for me about 1 in every 3 attempts I made to use it.

 

[jis]

Any newly installed system should really be using NFC key cards which work much more reliably than any other variety of keycards that I have ever had the pleasure of using at hotels and other facilities.

One doesn't really have to do the install for all 4000 rooms in one fell swoop. Using the same argument Amtrak should never order another railroad car again either just because they need a grand total of well over a thousand cars - facetiously speaking of course. A reasonable start would be with the Viewliner fleet starting with the new cars, a total of 25 x 15 or so. Then convert the View Is as they go through refurb another 50 x 15 or so, and then deal with the Super's as they cycle through their next major overhaul. One could start with the captive Auto Train fleet which would be basically about 116 06 17 cars and 20 something per car.

Pending all that they could go real low tech like Indian Railways already has, and just put two lock eyes on the door frame and the door, which they already do on some staff roomettes so that a passenger could use their own lock if they so choose.

A room being sold more than once on a run is a red herring. Hotel rooms are routinely sold several times each week.

But of course the point is completely moot. Like many things at Amtrak it ain't gonna happen.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

It sounds as if this key card system could actually work. But out of all the things Amtrak COULD spend money on, this would be near the bottom of the list. I'd rather have the amenity kits back, or better food in the diners, or pretty much anything else from the list of recent cuts - let alone all the other improvements Amtrak could make. Much higher on the list would be to actually FIX everything that's currently held together by duct tape.

 

[BCL]

A room being sold more than once on a run is a red herring. Hotel rooms are routinely sold several times each week.

Most of these systems are designed such that the locking mechanism can be standalone. The first use of a newly programmed card key will invalidate any older keys and allow a new batch of keys to be used.

 

[fairviewroad]

This will be Amtrak's number one priority the minute a member of Congress has an item stolen out of his/her sleeping compartment.

 

[zephyr17]

This will be Amtrak's number one priority the minute a member of Congress has an item stolen out of his/her sleeping compartment.

But the good news is that a member of Congress actually rode in a sleeper.

 

[the_traveler]

This will be Amtrak's number one priority the minute a member of Congress has an item stolen out of his/her sleeping compartment.

But the good news is that a member of Congress actually rode in a sleeper.

OR rode Amtrak at all!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

This will be Amtrak's number one priority the minute a member of Congress has an item stolen out of his/her sleeping compartment.

But the good news is that a member of Congress actually rode in a sleeper.

OR rode Amtrak at all!

Hey, my guys ride Amtrak. Though I have no idea if they've ever taken an LD train.

 

[xyzzy]

A room being sold more than once on a run is a red herring. Hotel rooms are routinely sold several times each week.

Not if there is a mandate to reprogram the key en route, as opposed to reprogramming keys when the train leaves the servicing facility at the departing station or even reprogramming keys less often than that. Makes a difference in terms of the number of reprogramming modules needed and the training of on-board crews to use them, as opposed to simply dispensing keys for doors already programmed.

 

[NW cannonball]

This will be Amtrak's number one priority the minute a member of Congress has an item stolen out of his/her sleeping compartment.

But the good news is that a member of Congress actually rode in a sleeper.

Oy Oy Oy -- the mind boggles. It is to laugh !!



Key-cards -- hotels -- "secure spaces" it is even more to laugh !!

I think -- most people leave most people be in the place where people are sleeping,.

The people who intrude - are either the cleaning slaves or the thieves. And you will never evade them.

Keep your money and papers in your private clothes. And be prepared when agressive thieves get in those places.

That's how the world is. Has been. Will be.

"Key card" = "security theatre" silly silly

Edit -- my home has not been burglered the last 30 years -- if any body did (and they could have easily done) - the Bur-hobbit- creatures saw huge piles of worthless books, a few ancient computers, and an out-of-tune piano. And a lot of stuff waiting to go to the Salvation Army.

Got not, lose not.

Total loser witless might try robbing a roomette on a train.

Please pray for the (exxpletive deleted demented sorry loser that steals worthless ****)

 

[BCL]

A room being sold more than once on a run is a red herring. Hotel rooms are routinely sold several times each week.

Not if there is a mandate to reprogram the key en route, as opposed to reprogramming keys when the train leaves the servicing facility at the departing station or even reprogramming keys less often than that. Makes a difference in terms of the number of reprogramming modules needed and the training of on-board crews to use them, as opposed to simply dispensing keys for doors already programmed.

That's not really the way they work. The only thing is that the programming terminals and the locking mechanisms have to know what each individual programming algorithm is. You can easily have multiple terminals.

Programming is quite easy for these types of systems. If I receive a replacement set of card keys, the previous set will continue to work, but will no longer work once the first recognized replacement is used. There doesn't have to be any sort of wired or wireless link to the programming system. In fact, most of these systems operate on batteries.

I personally don't like magnetic keys because of the risk of erasure. However, the contactless cards work in a similar fashion, although many have more sophisticated electronics similar to modern contactless transit fare cards.

 

[jis]

Anyone who, after reading this thread six years later, thinks the hotel lock system could work on a train has no idea how those systems really function outside of being given a key by the front desk. I know, I work with this type of system daily. The belief that it could work on Amtrak is absolutely laughable.

My sleeping car on VIA this summer locked, and I had to have my plastic key card to gain entry to my room.

If VIA can do this, I think that Amtrak can as well.

Okay, orangesaint, care to explain this? Why can VIA do it but not Amtrak? I'm not taking a side on whether or not it's neccesary...but you seemed so confident that it couldn't be done on a train...yet another poster points out that our neighbors to the north seem to have figured it out.

Simple. Whatever VIA does is not a "hotel lock" system. Just because it may use keycards doesn't mean its a "hotel lock" system. I'm sure if I knew the internal details of that system, I could find MANY differences.

That's a back-end distinction that is meaningless to the average train passenger. You made it sound like it was impossible to issue key cards that would be used to open roomette doors. Clearly it is. Nobody cares whether it's a "hotel-lock system" as opposed to a "plastic programmable cards that can be used to open a locked door" system.

I just took his original statement to mean that the few hotel lock systems he is familiar with would be hard to deploy in a train situation, and I am sure he is correct about that. But there are other key card systems that would work just fine. The bottom line is that the non-workability of key card systems is a red herring. Clearly no one would be crazy enough to pick a system that would not work anyway. They'd pick one that does work.

 

[NW cannonball]

Anyone who, after reading this thread six years later, thinks the hotel lock system could work on a train has no idea how those systems really function outside of being given a key by the front desk. I know, I work with this type of system daily. The belief that it could work on Amtrak is absolutely laughable.

My sleeping car on VIA this summer locked, and I had to have my plastic key card to gain entry to my room.

If VIA can do this, I think that Amtrak can as well.

Okay, orangesaint, care to explain this? Why can VIA do it but not Amtrak? I'm not taking a side on whether or not it's neccesary...but you seemed so confident that it couldn't be done on a train...yet another poster points out that our neighbors to the north seem to have figured it out.

Simple. Whatever VIA does is not a "hotel lock" system. Just because it may use keycards doesn't mean its a "hotel lock" system. I'm sure if I knew the internal details of that system, I could find MANY differences.

That's a back-end distinction that is meaningless to the average train passenger. You made it sound like it was impossible to issue key cards that would be used to open roomette doors. Clearly it is. Nobody cares whether it's a "hotel-lock system" as opposed to a "plastic programmable cards that can be used to open a locked door" system.

I just took his original statement to mean that the few hotel lock systems he is familiar with would be hard to deploy in a train situation, and I am sure he is correct about that. But there are other key card systems that would work just fine. The bottom line is that the non-workability of key card systems is a red herring. Clearly no one would be crazy enough to pick a system that would not work anyway. They'd pick one that does work.

Why would "they" do that?

"work" -- there's an almost zero problem, so why look for a solution that would "work"

the cheapest plausible phony "solution" is the best.

Nobody will ever know that the keycard provides zero security.

Doh.

 

[iggy]

"Key-cards -- hotels -- "secure spaces" it is even more to laugh !!"

Obviously no one in this thread has read about USB being used a few years back to defeat one of the major manufacturers of hotel card key entry systems.

Interesting no mention was made of how some hotels have used phones as your key. NFC / RFID is built into some phones.

Hotel cardkey locks said to be vulnerable to bypass hack from 2012

At Starwood hotels, smartphones will be room keys

Starwood swapping room keys for mobile phones at two hotels

That test started in 2014 - haven't read anything current on results / experiences etc.

 

[xyzzy]

A room being sold more than once on a run is a red herring. Hotel rooms are routinely sold several times each week.

Not if there is a mandate to reprogram the key en route, as opposed to reprogramming keys when the train leaves the servicing facility at the departing station or even reprogramming keys less often than that. Makes a difference in terms of the number of reprogramming modules needed and the training of on-board crews to use them, as opposed to simply dispensing keys for doors already programmed.

That's not really the way they work. The only thing is that the programming terminals and the locking mechanisms have to know what each individual programming algorithm is. You can easily have multiple terminals.

Programming is quite easy for these types of systems. If I receive a replacement set of card keys, the previous set will continue to work, but will no longer work once the first recognized replacement is used. There doesn't have to be any sort of wired or wireless link to the programming system. In fact, most of these systems operate on batteries.

I personally don't like magnetic keys because of the risk of erasure. However, the contactless cards work in a similar fashion, although many have more sophisticated electronics similar to modern contactless transit fare cards.

Understood. The notion of thousands of programming terminals hanging around on trains doesn't sound particularly practical to me.

Magnetic keys are an absolute pain. I spend one-third of my life in hotels, and card failure is a constant annoyance -- even when I store the cards inside a copper-lined case. And in the last hotel where I stayed, the battery in the door mechanism had to be replaced.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

I wonder if "Guest JR" has ever taken a long-distance train. I think it's one of those things that newbie train travelers worry about, but once you get onboard & ride the train for a while, you realize that it won't really be a problem.

Riding a train is, in many ways, much more like taking an airplane than having a hotel room (yeah, duh). But people hear the word "bedroom" or "roomette" and find out that it doesn't lock, and start thinking about staying in a hotel with a door that doesn't lock, and they get worried.

Amtrak is much more like a first-class "suite" on an airplane. The people around you may be strangers, but they're fellow passengers, and they're simply not likely to steal from you. I don't know of anyone who takes their valuables with them to the restroom on an airplane, or worries that their seat doesn't somehow "lock" to keep people away from their stuff when they're not in it.

 

[the_traveler]

And very few thieves try to exit a train going 79 mph after "stealing something from the room"!

 

[fairviewroad]

I wonder if "Guest JR" has ever taken a long-distance train. I think it's one of those things that newbie train travelers worry about, but once you get onboard & ride the train for a while, you realize that it won't really be a problem.

Riding a train is, in many ways, much more like taking an airplane than having a hotel room (yeah, duh). But people hear the word "bedroom" or "roomette" and find out that it doesn't lock, and start thinking about staying in a hotel with a door that doesn't lock, and they get worried.

Amtrak is much more like a first-class "suite" on an airplane. The people around you may be strangers, but they're fellow passengers, and they're simply not likely to steal from you. I don't know of anyone who takes their valuables with them to the restroom on an airplane, or worries that their seat doesn't somehow "lock" to keep people away from their stuff when they're not in it.

I think you make a valid point in that people always expect the worst. But I don't think the first-class suite on an airplane is the best analogy. With a few exceptions (showers on Emirates, for instance) one does not leave your first-class suite for any appreciable length of time. Not to eat. Not to enjoy the scenery. Not to wander around the platform at the next "smoking stop." On Amtrak it's routine to leave your sleeping compartment for hours at a time. It's not unreasonable for a new passenger to expect to be able to secure--even if only superficially--their belongings in their room.

And very few thieves try to exit a train going 79 mph after "stealing something from the room"!

This is a bit of a red herring. Even a simpleton can look at a train schedule and figure out when the next long station stop is. It would be easy to execute the theft on the approach to DEN, for instance, then slip away undetected, before the theft is even discovered. Again, I'm NOT saying this happens routinely, but to imply it's impossible because trains are in motion is a canard.

 

[the_traveler]

Very true, but how many thieves are going to look at the schedule and then say to themselves, "I'm going to wait until the train is 3 minutes away from El Paso (or Minot or Jacksonville) to enter room #6 to steal (whatever) so I can leave during the long stop!) :huh: This is only a guess, but i would say not many.

 

[BCL]

A room being sold more than once on a run is a red herring. Hotel rooms are routinely sold several times each week.

Not if there is a mandate to reprogram the key en route, as opposed to reprogramming keys when the train leaves the servicing facility at the departing station or even reprogramming keys less often than that. Makes a difference in terms of the number of reprogramming modules needed and the training of on-board crews to use them, as opposed to simply dispensing keys for doors already programmed.

That's not really the way they work. The only thing is that the programming terminals and the locking mechanisms have to know what each individual programming algorithm is. You can easily have multiple terminals.

Programming is quite easy for these types of systems. If I receive a replacement set of card keys, the previous set will continue to work, but will no longer work once the first recognized replacement is used. There doesn't have to be any sort of wired or wireless link to the programming system. In fact, most of these systems operate on batteries.

I personally don't like magnetic keys because of the risk of erasure. However, the contactless cards work in a similar fashion, although many have more sophisticated electronics similar to modern contactless transit fare cards.

Understood. The notion of thousands of programming terminals hanging around on trains doesn't sound particularly practical to me.

Magnetic keys are an absolute pain. I spend one-third of my life in hotels, and card failure is a constant annoyance -- even when I store the cards inside a copper-lined case. And in the last hotel where I stayed, the battery in the door mechanism had to be replaced.

I do understand that most of these systems use a proprietary encoding rather than industry standard encodings. However, I'd think it could be possible to get handheld systems to encode cards like these. Conductors carry such systems often these days, although I'm thinking they're just readers and not encoders.

I'm not saying I think it's needed, but from a technical standpoint the infrastructure is pretty simple.

 

[KVG_DC]

You know...I don't see anything in the OP that indicates it was a theft concern issue. Maybe they wanted to lock the door to ensure no 'private activities' got interrupted. Which makes me wonder if there was a prior experience that triggered this sudden dire need.

 

[zephyr17]

For "private activities" you can lock the door from the inside. If someone didn't latch it and the door opened, that is their problem.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And I sure wouldn't want to have a keycard failure somewhere between Wolf Point and Glasglow, MT.

Let's not do something overcomplicated to prevent something that happens very seldom. What would be the investment be to just prevent a single theft? I think that ratio would be pretty high. Also, and this is just intuitive, I think that lockouts would wind up being far more common that thefts are currently.

In order to justify such an investment, I think there would have to be hard statistics that it is needed, not just because of unfounded fear.

 

[cirdan]

Very true, but how many thieves are going to look at the schedule and then say to themselves, "I'm going to wait until the train is 3 minutes away from El Paso (or Minot or Jacksonville) to enter room #6 to steal (whatever) so I can leave during the long stop!) :huh: This is only a guess, but i would say not many.

Plus at that time the risk of getting caught is greater as more people will be in or around their rooms, collecting their belongings and preparing to detrain.