Disparity in AGR Rewards

[amamba]

Additionally, any train trip that didn't involve transfers would be considered a one zone, regardless of geography.

I was trying to address that with my EB example, but I suppose it would work for any of the two night western trains. I don't think it is fair to have those be considered one zone when those of us in the northeast are being charged two zones to go to CHI.
I get that the only change suggested is that a one train ride is one zone. I just don't think that is addressing some of the disparities I see in the current system, namely that it's two zones to CHI for me personally from my home station.

I thought we were discussing ways to make the zone system more fair. I don't think this is a good solution as it only seems to increase disparities in awards.

 

[Ryan]

OK, I'm clutched in now. It wouldn't make it worse for you in PVD, but it wouldn't make a trip to CHI better, the way it would hook up the NEC LD stations.

The western trains certainly cause a problem as well.

 

[I always rode the Southern]

Well it certainly wouldn't help those of us who ride the silvers as we would be limited to a straight line up to New York. I would have to do a Pittsburgh trip as a 2 zone, No thanks.

 

[William W.]

Why not just move the dividing line between the eastern and central zones so that it intersects vertically with Chicago and New Orleans? That would seem like a pretty simple fix, IMO.

In addition, allow overnights in cities where that makes sense, such as New Orleans.

 

[jebr]

I honestly think AGR wants most of those trips to be two zone rewards, hence why they draw the lines where they do. Moving the boundary to NOL wouldn't be a bad idea, but I don't see AGR wanting to cut trips from the east coast to Chicago down to one zone.

Honestly, what would be best, imo, would be that the shortest published route would be charged based on the number of distinct zones you go through (so ATN - CHI via WAS or CVS would be two zones.) Any other route could be taken, but it's starts at a one zone reward and each time you cross a zone boundary it adds another zone to your zone count.

 

[Ryan]

Well it certainly wouldn't help those of us who ride the silvers as we would be limited to a straight line up to New York. I would have to do a Pittsburgh trip as a 2 zone, No thanks.

No you wouldn't. It's a 1 zone now, so it would continue to be a 1 zone.

 

[Ispolkom]

Has there ever been a change in a frequent flyer program that improved the terms for members? All I can remember is tightening of restrictions, devaluations of points, etc., but of course I always remember slights better than favors.

 

[the_traveler]

I don't think so, except now certain airlines offer one way awards. Which is good if you want to say fly to LA or PDX and take Amtrak the other way. No longer does it cost 25K to fly, only 12.5K! I had that happen to me when I flew to PDX but decided to take Amtrak back. The flight award still cost me 25K!

 

[I always rode the Southern]

Well it certainly wouldn't help those of us who ride the silvers as we would be limited to a straight line up to New York. I would have to do a Pittsburgh trip as a 2 zone, No thanks.

No you wouldn't. It's a 1 zone now, so it would continue to be a 1 zone.

Yes I misread, gotta stop trying to read and think logically so late at night.. :help:

 

[Ispolkom]

I don't think so, except now certain airlines offer one way awards.

Good one! That definitely added value for me.

 

[crescent2]

I don't think so, except now certain airlines offer one way awards.

Good one! That definitely added value for me.

Me too-- I'm glad to see that Delta will start offering one-way awards as I have a few miles with them. That might help me with my elusive CZ trip someday.

 

[amamba]

OK, I'm clutched in now. It wouldn't make it worse for you in PVD, but it wouldn't make a trip to CHI better, the way it would hook up the NEC LD stations.

The western trains certainly cause a problem as well.

I just think it would be crazy to allow a 15K roomette award end to end on the CZ, EB, SWC, TE, etc. Those trains are generally 3 days and 2 nights - or even longer on the TE. Now granted that might be a small amount of the awards granted. Do we have any stats on what the average mileage is for one zone awards, two zone awards, etc? Just curious how those would stack up.

As it is, the system chaps my ass because I can only basically go to Florida (or Toledo! wheee!!!!!) for a one zone award. No offense to Florida (waves to pennyk) but it's too dang hot and humid for me there for over half the year and I'm a curmudgeon who hates disney world. So I end up with a bajillion points but not enough time to take a long train ride. I was considering a trip to some place like Charleston but I will need to go when its cooler. Or it takes me two zones to get to CHI from PVD currently, but meanwhile a trip from SEA - DEN with that sacramento layover is only one zone for two nights on the train. Those are some of the disparities that I see now that are inherent to the zone system. I don't really have a solution to solve them other than doing mileage based redemptions which other people would not be happy with.

 

[William W.]

East Coast to CHI/NOL: One Zone

CHI/NOL-West Coast: Two Zones

East Coast-West Coast: Three Zones

 

[jebr]

East Coast to CHI/NOL: One Zone

CHI/NOL-West Coast: Two Zones

East Coast-West Coast: Three Zones

So SCD - MSP should be two zones as well? Or are we still having a one zone boundary somewhere in the West as well?

There's a reason they don't put the zone boundary in Chicago. I'm convinced that AGR wants East Coast - Chicago to be a two zone reward, because that's what they value the cost of the reward at.

 

[Ispolkom]

East Coast to CHI/NOL: One Zone

CHI/NOL-West Coast: Two Zones

East Coast-West Coast: Three Zones

So SCD - MSP should be two zones as well? Or are we still having a one zone boundary somewhere in the West as well?

There's a reason they don't put the zone boundary in Chicago. I'm convinced that AGR wants East Coast - Chicago to be a two zone reward, because that's what they value the cost of the reward at.

I love threads like this because each person posting has a very definite notion of what making AGR fairer means: fairer means that the poster personally should pay less. As usual, where you stand depends on where you sit. East Coast posters resent that it costs so much, relatively, to travel from the East Coast to Chicago. People from the southeast hate having to travel via Washington. People from the west coast, well, don't post to this thread. Probably too busy fighting fires. Jebr shows how any changes to the present system would cheat people who live in fly-over country.

Me, I think that it's fair that we in fly-over country have better award redemptions, because unless we live in Chicagoland, we don't have any trains to ride. Imagine trying to do a points run on a 12-hour late Empire Builder. You think it costs a lot of points to ride the California Zephyr? I can't even get there from here! I even think that it is just dandy that Wolf Point is the Queen City of AGR Redemptions, because that is probably the second positive statement I've ever been able to make about that town (the first is that Jordan, Montana is even worse).

Given that the zone system was probably scrawled on a cocktail napkin at a happy hour the day before AGR launched, when the Northeast Corridor-fixated AGR team realized they needed something for the rest of the system, I think that it works very well. I'll admit that it's getting harder to manipulate, but that's all in the game.

As Amamba suggests, the really fair system would be mileage-based, but I'd hate that.

 

[William W.]

East Coast to CHI/NOL: One Zone

CHI/NOL-West Coast: Two Zones

East Coast-West Coast: Three Zones

So SCD - MSP should be two zones as well? Or are we still having a one zone boundary somewhere in the West as well?

There's a reason they don't put the zone boundary in Chicago. I'm convinced that AGR wants East Coast - Chicago to be a two zone reward, because that's what they value the cost of the reward at.

I'm valuing a reward ticket based on the dollar cost of the same ticket.

Here's the issue that I have:

(CL)WAS-CHI:

20,000 points

Low bucket: $300 (on average)

Cash value of each used point: $0.015

(CZ)CHI-EMY:

20,000 points

Low bucket: $600 (on average)

Cash value of each used point: $0.03

As you can see, the value of 20,000 points used on a CL trip is half that of a CZ trip. This is especially hard to swallow when you consider that the CL is one night, and about 1/2 a day. The CZ, on the other hand, is two nights, and two days. I also take into account the distance traveled. The CZ is 2500 miles, whereas the CL is less than 800.

I would probably use a three zone reward if going from WAS-EMY, but I'd almost never use points to go from WAS-CHI. I value each of my points at $0.03-0.04 each. I don't want to waste them when I could save them and use them on a longer, more expensive route (the exception would be if I needed to book a last minute trip, and the bucket was high).

 

[jebr]

How often are the eastern (or, for that matter, the western) long distance trains at low bucket, though?

 

[William W.]

The CL is quite frequently at the lower bucket, except during holidays, or periods of high usage. The LSL is more reasonable, points wise, because it is usually $400-500, but the scale tips again whenever the western trains go up to the higher buckets ($700+).

 

[Railroad Bill]

Yes, we usually pay for trips from CLE to NYP or CLE to WAS since the cost is better than using up points.

Always looking for more bang for the buck when going AGR.

 

[crescent2]

It was an ouch to have to add a zone for Toledo to Chicago, and similarly on the return award, but I know the line has to be drawn "somewhere." All in all a good system. The 2-zone roomette seems to be the best bargain of the accommodations.

 

[benale]

We have a nice trip planned for next spring Toledo to San Luis Obispo via the Empire Builder with an overnight in Portland on our dime and back via the Texas Eagle,best bang for the buck with AGR. We live near Harrisburg Pa and couldn't see wasting a third zone which would have been 35,000 points both ways or buying two coach tickets to Toledo. We are going to drive to Toledo,about six hours and park at the station. I believe it's free parking. In this case for two people it is much more economical to simply drive and catch the Capitol Limited early in the morning.

 

[VentureForth]

Well, the whole point to my starting the thread was to show that my 15,000 point roomette AGR redemption could only get me as far as Cincinatti or NYP in a single-zone reward in a sleeper. I can go further, in business or coach class but I'm not really sure how far.

For instance, I can't book a single reservation from SAV to Montreal because of the layover situation in New York. Many trains - ie: the Adirondack, Maple Leaf, Vermonter, etc., aren't available for single itinerary booking.

Per what was discussed in another thread, I think Amtrak should publish more routes with self-layovers in NYC.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Has there ever been a change in a frequent flyer program that improved the terms for members? All I can remember is tightening of restrictions, devaluations of points, etc., but of course I always remember slights better than favors.

Depends on how you look at it. At one time there were zero published benefits. As bad as it may look now, virtually everything offered to maintain your loyalty today was originally absent from the equation. However most improvements in loyalty programs occurred back when there was a lot more competition chasing far fewer passengers for market dominance back when securing credit was relatively easy and burning fossil fuel was relatively cheap. Outside of a few "split the difference" benefits the last round of major improvements was during the global market crash and credit crunch that followed the US housing bubble of 2008.