Cops called after fliers fight over seat recline

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saxman said:
. For me, when I have the option, I'd rather have the seat next to me empty rather than the leg room. I'd sit in the very back for that!
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Or, alternately, row 17 on some American Airlines 737s, where the middle seat is blocked. Mrs. Ispolkom discovered this for a flight last May, and it was well worth the extra $20-30.
 
Ispolkom said:
saxman said:
. For me, when I have the option, I'd rather have the seat next to me empty rather than the leg room. I'd sit in the very back for that!
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Or, alternately, row 17 on some American Airlines 737s, where the middle seat is blocked. Mrs. Ispolkom discovered this for a flight last May, and it was well worth the extra $20-30.
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Nice find! It reminds me of when AA was operating some or their F-28-100's out of Love Field during the restricted distance era....they reconfigured them with only sixty seats, to comply with the capacity limit, essentially all business class at a coach fare. :cool:
 
tp49 said:
The problem comes if you damaged someone's laptop or other expensive electronic device because you couldn't at the bare minimum take a look back or say something to the guy behind you to give them a warning and time to reposition or put their device away.
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No, not my problem, sorry. The person behind me is welcome to ask me to give them a heads-up before I recline...I would gladly accommodate such a request. But I can't be held responsible for actions caused by my using the seat in the way in which it was designed to be used. Got a problem...take it up with the carrier. As I said before, it's astonishingly naive to set up a laptop on a traytable in coach class.

This guy in the NYT agrees with me:

A no-recline norm would also have troubling social justice implications — for short people. Complaints about knee-room are not spread equally across our society. They are voiced mostly by the tall, a privileged group that already enjoys many advantages. I don’t just mean they can see well at concerts and reach high shelves. Tall people earn more money than short people, an average of $789 per inch per year, according to a 2004 paper in the Journal of Applied Psychology.

Instead of counting their blessings, or buying extra-legroom seats with some of their extra income, the tall have the gall to demand that the rules of flying be reconfigured to their advantage, just as everything else in life already has been.
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Last I checked, being tall does not come under the ADA and does not require special accommodations. It is entirely possible that not every airline seat is appropriate for every customer. I purchase airline seats that are appropriate for my travel needs. Don't you?
 
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tp49 said:
Green Maned Lion said:
Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.
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It is a battery under both the common law (tort) definition and the penal code definition in I'm sure pretty much every jurisdiction. This is the California Penal Code definition of battery:
242. A battery is any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another.
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Throwing water is neither forceful nor violent, legally speaking. It does not cause pain, does not injure, and most likely does no damage whatsoever.
 
Green Maned Lion said:
tp49 said:
Green Maned Lion said:
Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.
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It is a battery under both the common law (tort) definition and the penal code definition in I'm sure pretty much every jurisdiction. This is the California Penal Code definition of battery:

242. A battery is any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another.
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Throwing water is neither forceful nor violent, legally speaking. It does not cause pain, does not injure, and most likely does no damage whatsoever.
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Example of someone being charged with it for throwing water in someone's face. There's also this old legal text:

It appears from the foregoing examples that it is not necessary to constitute a battery that the touch or blow or other contact should come directly from the defendant's person. Indeed, a battery may be committed at any distance between the parties if only some violence be done to the plaintiff's person, The hitting one with a stone, or an arrow, or other missile is no less a battery than the striking one with the fist. It is not necessary even that the object cast should do physical harm; the battery consists in the unpermitted contact not in the damage. For example: The defendant spits or throws water upon the plaintiff. This is a battery though no harm be done
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Mike James on Facebook:

From the What Did You Expect? Department:
...
- other than the Knee Defender user being a total jerk (the passenger in front paid for that reclining seat) and the water tosser for not keeping her cool, let's park blame for this fiasco where it belongs - on the airlines, willing to do about anything from multiple fees to jamming coach passengers into a plane like fish in a sardine can to increase earnings, and on Wall Street investors in airline stock (who love the return if profits rise, never mind passenger discomfort).
- toss a bit of blame on ticket buyers - if we want the lowest price we fly in a space more confining than seats in a Prius (hence the Knee Defender, blocking the recline that jams your too-small table right into your chest). Americans like to shop on price only, but the old saying still holds - "you get what you pay for."

And oh, Knee Defender sales are soaring........
What did you expect?
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Airplane scuffle spurs Knee Defender sales

Ira Goldman, the inventor of a pair of clips called "Knee Defender," says the website that sells the product has been overwhelmed since reports of the fight on the Newark-Denver flight surfaced. The Knee Defender clips block passengers from reclining an airline seat.
"We had 500 times the normal traffic," said Goldman. "Maybe Amazon can handle that, but I can't."
Goldman believes he has enough of the clips in inventory to handle the surge in orders. The Knee Defenders sell for $21.95 a pair, plus shipping and handling.
"We'll be placing a new order with the factory in China," he said. He declined to say his typical sales or give an estimate as to Tuesday's surge.
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I don't know how one can fit a laptop on those trays. Even on Amtrak I don't find the trays big enough to accommodate a laptop. But I agree that the space is ridiculous.

Somebody just pointed out that we vote with our money. You want more space? Pay for it. I suspect that enough people will keep paying the lowest rates though.
 
fairviewroad said:
I make no apologies for reclining my seat and I make no attempt to ask permission. It is my seat. My space. I have paid for it.
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In all my years of flying I've never once seen or heard any mention of my purchasing a specific amount of space for my personal use. Nor have I seen anything indicating that a specific amount of seat recline is part of my purchase. Certainly not in any of the purchasing pages, confirmation documents, recap emails, tickets, ticket jackets, or boarding passes.

fairviewroad said:
By using my seat in the manner in which it is designed, I am not infringing upon anyone else.
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The people who designed the seat recline probably played no role in determining the eventual spacing of those seats. As the seats have been moved closer and closer over the years the relative usefulness and practical application of the recline function has indeed been impacted. Unfortunately for some folks new information is no match for prior assumptions.

fairviewroad said:
And frankly, anyone flying coach who decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.
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To be perfectly frank you seem to be the only member who is "itching for a confrontation" over this.
 
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Aloha

A bunch of years ago, some sorts jock, reclined his seat during taxi to the runway, hitting me in the face. The Stews did nothing about it. When I made a written complaint about it to the Airline I received a reply that his sports need out weighed my comfort. I forwarded this to the FAA and received no reply. I have never used that airline again.
 
Green Maned Lion said:
It might be small but at least it is expensive.
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I have a small and *inexpensive* Acer, loaded with freeware, just for travel. I leave my deluxe-sized and featured Lenovo at home, and just send my travel writing to it when I'm done. If I am ever forced to fly (which I sincerely hope I will not be), this thread will reinforce my caution with it.
 
The story was picked up by most of the national press....I hope it doesn't lead to more use of the device and resulting confrontation's....and hope it's use is not attempted on Amtrak tray tables, (not sure if it would work on those).....
 
In a story in the news on the maker of those devices he said that he has had a 500% increase in orders and is close to selling out. He is placing an new order from his Chinese manufacturer.
 
Perhaps it's time for more Premium Economy. 5-abreast should work fine on narrowbodies. Really can't understand why the International Premium Economy costs so much.
 
Economy Plus, Main Cabin Extra, or whatever you call it is just the norm from 20 years ago. And many or most of the people flying in the premium economy cabin are top-tier frequent flyers who despise seatback recline.

5-abreast has been done on 707/727/737; Air Canada offered it on their 727s for many years. It's great for people at 200+ pounds. But it won't help the legroom problem which is the source of most angst these days.

International premium economy is priced at whatever the market will bear. A number of employers, including my own, no longer allow business class on transatlantic flights but will approve premium economy. When you buy an international premium economy ticket, you're bidding against a lot of people whose employers are paying the bill.
 
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Just to give another perspective, there was at least one occasion when a 5'2" tall lady sitting behind me in Acela Coach got very upset when I reclined my seat. I told her to call a Conductor if she wanted to discuss the matter further and stop yelling at me, and then put my Bose headphone on. She apparently did not think a Conductor would help, so that settled that. So you don;t have to be on a plane for someone to go a bit non-linear in their behavior.
 
I personally don't feel a big problem with the guy in front reclining when I'm not using a tray table. And I'm taller than 5'2".

Economy Plus is virtually no different from Economy except a tiny bit more legroom. It is not Premium Economy. If US airlines would actually introduce Premium Economy then maybe less people would fight over this.

I agree with legroom >>> seat width but I'm not a big guy and some people want seat width >>> legroom.
 

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