Commuter rail: Why not a more attractive exterior/interior design?

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It's a bloody train. It gets you from point A to point B. Who cares?

And that being said, it is a schonda if any trains were to ever exist within Jerusalem's hallowed walls. Which last time I was there, they didn't.
 
Well really, which trains are truly American these days? Just because it's built in the US doesn't mean it's truly American. No more Budd. No more Pullman. No more AC&F. No more Saint Louis Car. We have Nippon-Sharyo, Talgo, CAF, Siemens, none of those are American companies. Bombardier is actually Canadian, so that's about as close as it gets.
 
US Railcar (used to be Colorado)

There are a number of companies that rehaul & refurbish cars; which could probably manufacture some cars if they wanted.

peter
 
Well really, which trains are truly American these days? Just because it's built in the US doesn't mean it's truly American. No more Budd. No more Pullman. No more AC&F. No more Saint Louis Car. We have Nippon-Sharyo, Talgo, CAF, Siemens, none of those are American companies. Bombardier is actually Canadian, so that's about as close as it gets.
Most of Bombardier's rail operations is European. The Canadian part is just small potatoes these days. For example the ALP-45s are manufactured completely in Europe and shipped over to the US by boat.
 
Exterior design has a lot to do with FRA requirements for strength. The ugly school-bus nose on the Talgos, for example, was supposed to look nicer, but was redesigned for safety/protection reasons.
Safety is another problem with the FRA rules. The requirement, for many years, was a rigid structure like a '48 Rambler. The European and Japanese trains are built with crumple zones, like an '08 Mercedes. In a collision, which offers better protection, an old Nash or a new Benz?

I hear the safety requirements have been updated, and the cars are being built like Ramblers with Mercedes noses welded on. It's an improvement, but we still have to buy overweight and expensive custom-built short production run technology rather than mass produced modern equipment.
 
Exterior design has a lot to do with FRA requirements for strength. The ugly school-bus nose on the Talgos, for example, was supposed to look nicer, but was redesigned for safety/protection reasons.
Safety is another problem with the FRA rules. The requirement, for many years, was a rigid structure like a '48 Rambler. The European and Japanese trains are built with crumple zones, like an '08 Mercedes. In a collision, which offers better protection, an old Nash or a new Benz?

I hear the safety requirements have been updated, and the cars are being built like Ramblers with Mercedes noses welded on. It's an improvement, but we still have to buy overweight and expensive custom-built short production run technology rather than mass produced modern equipment.
By contrast, I would point out the fact that crumple incidents are where things tend to go very, very wrong with trains. As a rule, at least from what I can recall, as long as the car structure holds up people don't tend to get killed. When a car gets squished, the story changes. Put another way, US trains do have crumple zones: The couplings. The fact that trains can bend every 80 feet creates a sort of crumple zone. Additionally, it's a hell of a lot harder to put a hard stop on a million-pound Regional than it is on a 2000-pound car. The sheer mass of the train tends to take out whatever is in its way where a similar obstacle will stop a car hard. Take a large tree, for example: A lot of cars will slam into it and get wrapped around it. If a locomotive hits the same tree, you might have an emergency stop (and indeed it might induce something of a derailment) but the train isn't likely to get torn to shreds.
 
Thank you for this post.

Safety is another problem with the FRA rules. The requirement, for many years, was a rigid structure like a '48 Rambler. The European and Japanese trains are built with crumple zones, like an '08 Mercedes. In a collision, which offers better protection, an old Nash or a new Benz?
I hear the safety requirements have been updated, and the cars are being built like Ramblers with Mercedes noses welded on. It's an improvement, but we still have to buy overweight and expensive custom-built short production run technology rather than mass produced modern equipment.
While of course by nature, rail-automobile comparisons have their limits, many might think within these limits it is a good illustration. Many might agree with you, in that the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) should abandon the current regulation which many might think of as antiquated, and instead allow modern mass produced modern equipment to operate.

Many might think it's sad that it's generally the case outdated FRA rules still apply, at the same time there are what many might consider positive developments, in that the FRA granted waivers to several rail operators, so they are able to use modern and efficient rolling stock. For example, there is

- in New Jersey, New Jersey Transit's River Line commuter rail, using special tram-train-operations capable Stadler GTW 2/6 Diesel-Multiple Unit trainsets offering a tighter turning radius

- in Texas, Capital Metropolitan Transportation Authority's Red Line commuter rail, using modern Stadler GTW 2/6 Diesel-Multiple Unit trainsets

- again in Texas, Denton County Transportation Authority's A-Train commuter rail, also using modern Stadler GTW 2/6 Diesel-Multiple Unit trainsets

- in California, North County Transit District's Sprinter commuter rail, using customized modern Siemens Desiro Classic Diesel-Multiple Unit trainsets

Modern, not FRA compliant rolling stock will also be used:

- in California, on San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District's eBART service, once again using modern Stadler GTW 2/6 Diesel-Multiple Unit trainsets

- in Texas, on Fort Worth Transportation Authority's future Cotton Belt commuter rail line, using some modern yet-to-be-determined Diesel-Multiple Unit

- and in California (this project might be very important to some), on Peninsula Corridor Joint Powers Board's Caltrain commuter rail, using modern yet-to-be-determined Electric-Multiple Units, which will offer lower operating costs, faster acceleration and shorter travel times, a more comfortable ride and a more attractive service (the FRA waiver already has been granted)

So some might think, there is hope. :)

Being able to use light-weight rolling stock would be beneficial for nearly every kind of passenger rail operations, still besides commuter rail, high-speed rail stands to gain the most. After all, some might think that one of the reasons Amtrak's Acela wasn't able to make full use of all of high-speed rail's advantages was the thousands of modifications that had to be made in the attempt to basically convert an off-the-shelf TGV design into a more-or-less custom-built FRA compliant US rolling stock. This is why many were so excited about the Federal Railroad Administration's (FRA) efforts to change US regulations regarding safety requirements for passenger trains, including high-speed rail, to basically allow modern light-weight designs to operate - without time-seperated operations and the like. Crafting regulations takes time, so at least for some it may remain one of the most exciting developments, and some may be waiting for more news on this process moving forward or eventually being finished. The following is an article about this from last year:

Long Barred from American Tracks, European Train Designs Could Get Rolling by 2015

October 31, 2013

By Stephan J. Smith

http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/modern-european-train-designs-american-tracks-2015-fra

Thank you for this post.

By contrast, I would point out the fact that crumple incidents are where things tend to go very, very wrong with trains. As a rule, at least from what I can recall, as long as the car structure holds up people don't tend to get killed. When a car gets squished, the story changes. Put another way, US trains do have crumple zones: The couplings. The fact that trains can bend every 80 feet creates a sort of crumple zone. Additionally, it's a hell of a lot harder to put a hard stop on a million-pound Regional than it is on a 2000-pound car. The sheer mass of the train tends to take out whatever is in its way where a similar obstacle will stop a car hard. Take a large tree, for example: A lot of cars will slam into it and get wrapped around it. If a locomotive hits the same tree, you might have an emergency stop (and indeed it might induce something of a derailment) but the train isn't likely to get torn to shreds.
Many might think, it is sure legit to see it that way. At the same time, many might respectfully disagree.

By contrast, I would point out the fact that crumple incidents are where things tend to go very, very wrong with trains.
Some might think, no, that's when things go right. Modern safety principles recognize that every crash is basically one object moving into some other object with a certain amount of energy, thus what is needed is crash energy management, and crumble zones are one important component of that, so sometimes it could be that when something crumbles, that is where things tend to go comparatively good with trains. :) One example how work is being done on crumble zones (and standard couplings are not actual crumble zones at all) can be found here:

Will the crash zone crumple? FEA tells

November 6, 2003

By Paul Dvorak

http://machinedesign.com/archive/will-crash-zone-crumple-fea-tells
 
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By contrast, I would point out the fact that crumple incidents are where things tend to go very, very wrong with trains. As a rule, at least from what I can recall, as long as the car structure holds up people don't tend to get killed. When a car gets squished, the story changes. Put another way, US trains do have crumple zones: The couplings. The fact that trains can bend every 80 feet creates a sort of crumple zone. Additionally, it's a hell of a lot harder to put a hard stop on a million-pound Regional than it is on a 2000-pound car. The sheer mass of the train tends to take out whatever is in its way where a similar obstacle will stop a car hard. Take a large tree, for example: A lot of cars will slam into it and get wrapped around it. If a locomotive hits the same tree, you might have an emergency stop (and indeed it might induce something of a derailment) but the train isn't likely to get torn to shreds.
A crumple zone and a rail car being crushed are two entirely different concepts. The rigid unyielding nature of the traditional construction is one of the main causes of the cars bending at the couplers and piling together like a folding ruler, leading to cars being crushed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApXBXUpqYsE

The addition of crumple zones offers a significant reduction in damage to the interior volume of the passenger space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bofRMEBHTok
 
I am in full support of the OP's position. These brand new cars look like something you'd expect to see in the 80's and the seats look uncomfortable just by spying the pictures. It's a giant contrast to new units being put to use in Europe and Asia. What's worse, we will be stuck with this design for well over a decade with this kind of investment.

I don't know what RTD is doing. The Siemens Light Rail cars were a giant letdown design-wise. Extremely boxy, with steep steps to climb and uncomfortable seats. Again, look at the sleek new light rail setups across the pond.

Design absolutely matters. These systems have to complete with cars, and if they don't look modern and are not comfortable to ride, they will be less attractive. Period. It's just like the buses. Those RTD city buses are rickety as heck, hard to get on for a lot of people and the interiors are absolutely forgettable. Try a city bus in any city in Germany or Scandinavia and compare. Not even close.
 
Thank you for posting this additional information.

A crumple zone and a rail car being crushed are two entirely different concepts. The rigid unyielding nature of the traditional construction is one of the main causes of the cars bending at the couplers and piling together like a folding ruler, leading to cars being crushed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApXBXUpqYsE
The addition of crumple zones offers a significant reduction in damage to the interior volume of the passenger space.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bofRMEBHTok
The following side-by-side of the FRA crash energy management test was already posted before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUpUJrk4QBE

Also, even on existing US rolling stock crash energy management features have been implemented, like the following link shows:

http://www.voith.com/en/products-services/power-transmission/scharfenberg-couplers/scharfenberg-couplers-railcars/crash-energy-management-41850.htm

In conclusion some may hope, that finally the paradigm of just having to build steel boxes as thick as possible for maximum security will go away, and instead, modern and light-weight asian and european rolling stock designs may finally be used, which aside from all the economic benefits and passenger-comfort benefits will actually offer increased security.
 
Increased safety, yes. Security, I am not sure. I can't see how lightweight passenger cars would prevent someone carrying a bomb from carrying it on and detonating it inside the train for example.

BTW, what the modified Tier I standard basically does is, it allows the absorption of energy in CEM space designed into the car, but the design must still keep the passenger carrying portion of the car safe in face of 800 klb longitudinal buff load. So it is probably about 2/3rds of the way there. But it appears unlikely that they would yield on the 800 klb, which is higher than the UIC standard. So the situation now is that off the shelf UIC equipment will still need some modification to be Tier I compliant. But apparently it is not much since many European and Japanese manufacturers are already more resilient than what UIC requires. Witness how the Nippon-Sharyo used in SMART came out to be compliant with modified Tier I. Similarly Stadlers are in the process of getting Tier I approval. I bet the Viaggio cars to be used in Florida will only be slightly modified from off the shelf Viaggio cars too.
 
As a local metro-Denver area resident for the last 30 years, I was shocked at the low seat comfort on these new trains. Comparing with our current commuter bus, the bus is an advantage. The RTD regional bus fleet features cloth fabric, tilt backs and between seat arm rests.

These new trains seem to merge today's technology with 1960's car seating. Leg room seems to be cramped, as on an airplane. The bench styling reminds me of being on a school bus.

I disagree with those that have commented here that "commuters don't need comfort". Although the trip might be shorter than an Amtrak segment, commuters are on twice five days a week, resulting in 5 to 10 hours of weekly train time. If people are going to stop communing by car, the train needs to be a pleasant experience to entice them to leave the car home.

8641814080_5f5d5bc2fd_z.jpg
 
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