Colorado Front Range passenger rail... baby steps

[railiner]

When I was in Denver in October, the one thing that struck me as missing but being an easy addition was a large departure monitor. If one could walk into the station building and see a screen indicating that Amtrak Train 6 is now boarding on Track 5 and the next RTD train to the Airport will be leaving from Track 2 in 10 minutes that would, in my opinion, go a long way to helping passengers wade through the non-transportation-related business (and busy-ness) of the station. I recall there are small Amtrak status monitors near the platform-side doors but I do not recall any sort of signage for RTD train departures.

This is because there is a total failure as it relates to integration of services. Almost everything is segregated. Amtrak is separate from the heavy rail portion of the RTD Light Rail service (save for utilizing the same track just outside the station), true light rail is separate from the A-Line and the station itself, and the bus services are separate from everything else. It's like the people who designed it or are responsible for the implementation have never used any of the services which it provides (which I wouldn't be surprised if that were actually indeed the case). If the services were groups of people, there would be separate restrooms, waiting areas, and drinking fountains based on race and gender.
The only seamless transition is if you were arriving from the airport on the A-Line and departing on the CZ, with no checked baggage on the train. (And with prior ticket purchasing.) Or the reverse, arriving on the CZ and taking the A-Line to locales outside downtown. (Again, with no baggage to retrieve.) I'm sure the designers would say "oh, we planned it that way because 'studies' showed that there is no overlap in transportation services" (um, maybe because it was practically impossible to do that previously so there was no incentive to do so?). But again, that shows the lack of forethought as to modern transportation planning. I predict the current setup will be useful for one thing in the future, however---it will be a model for how not to plan future integrated transportation layouts for other locales.

Yes, I understand that RTD Commuter Rail services (Lines A, B, G) are physically separate from RTD Light Rail services (Lines C, E, W), with the bus tunnel sort of linking them. But why couldn't there be a large departure/train status display inside the traditional station building, large enough to be visible as you enter from the street, listing Amtrak and RTD Commuter Rail (Amtrak Train 5 on Track 5 and RTD A-Line to Airport on Track 2, or whatever)? And then add a line stating that Buses and Light Rail (or Lines C, E, W) can be accessed through the tunnel. Something like that would seem to go a long way to helping to bring together the disparate parts of the entire Union Station complex.

From what I have been reading in these posts, it seems the proprietor's of the "head house", don't want that...they don't even want to be associated with being a transportation hub, unless I am misinterpreting those posts.

Perhaps when the original redevelopment was written, Amtrak and RTD didn't get involved in this matter...now it may be too late....

 

[railiner]

I guess it's about time for me to 'slip over to Denver' to get a first-hand impression of what has become of my former home-away-from-home....

I would be very interested to hear of your impressions once you do that, especially as a former employee. It truly sounds like you were there during the glory days of post-consolidation rail travel.

.

I'll be sure to post my findings here....

Interesting description..."post-consolidation rail travel"...I've never heard of it put that way...

I've always considered the "glory days" as those "pre-consolidation", if consolidation means the Amtrak era....

 

[RSG]

Yes, I understand that RTD Commuter Rail services (Lines A, B, G) are physically separate from RTD Light Rail services (Lines C, E, W), with the bus tunnel sort of linking them. But why couldn't there be a large departure/train status display inside the traditional station building, large enough to be visible as you enter from the street, listing Amtrak and RTD Commuter Rail (Amtrak Train 5 on Track 5 and RTD A-Line to Airport on Track 2, or whatever)? And then add a line stating that Buses and Light Rail (or Lines C, E, W) can be accessed through the tunnel. Something like that would seem to go a long way to helping to bring together the disparate parts of the entire Union Station complex.

Because when services aren't connected, you don't see them as needing to be connected, and when they aren't needed to be connected, why on Earth would we have a status board connecting them all together?

That's the philosophical explanation. The other end of the argument, actually doing it, would likely be more complex. I would be willing to bet the data streams from each entity wouldn't be easily compatible in a unified display. Not that it has to be that way, but because of the way the complex was laid out and designed I would imagine no one thought that making the information data displays compatible for a unified display would even be a consideration.

But what you're asking for highlights another overall issue with the layout of the redesigned station: a cohesive approach to wayfinding, which is the term for information displays (usually signage of some sort, but often floor plans) that are designed to get people where they want to go. Somehow I think that the lack of attention to that detail is either consciously or subconsciously intentional in that we want the people to mill about and wander the station as much as possible because that' s the only way they will ever get to patronize all our vendors and see all the wonderful things they have to offer them. So the end result is that visitors to the complex are treated like cattle in a pasture: free to wander and graze until it's time for them to do something else. If they just have to be at some specific location at a particular point in time, well, that's not our concern.

 

[RSG]

Yes, I understand that RTD Commuter Rail services (Lines A, B, G) are physically separate from RTD Light Rail services (Lines C, E, W), with the bus tunnel sort of linking them. But why couldn't there be a large departure/train status display inside the traditional station building, large enough to be visible as you enter from the street, listing Amtrak and RTD Commuter Rail (Amtrak Train 5 on Track 5 and RTD A-Line to Airport on Track 2, or whatever)? And then add a line stating that Buses and Light Rail (or Lines C, E, W) can be accessed through the tunnel. Something like that would seem to go a long way to helping to bring together the disparate parts of the entire Union Station complex.

From what I have been reading in these posts, it seems the proprietor's of the "head house", don't want that...they don't even want to be associated with being a transportation hub, unless I am misinterpreting those posts.Perhaps when the original redevelopment was written, Amtrak and RTD didn't get involved in this matter...now it may be too late....

If you've detected a claim of classism on the part of my posts, it's not inaccurate. That is pretty much what is going on, though no one is going to admit that, even under oath.
But the fact is that almost everyone with a stake in the eventual outcome had a seat at the table. The question is just how a seat mattered in the eventual outcome. RTD is the de facto owner of the facility, though management is farmed out. They were there from the beginning and yet in the final iteration, none of their services are integrated into the facility. (They would claim they are, because you can exit the true light rail platforms, walk a couple hundred feet into the entrance of the bus concourse, traverse the entirety and exit that right by the A-Line/Amtrak platforms and behind Union Station. Yet this is like saying that an airport-area hotel is 'connected' to the airport via a shuttle van.) But it's not surprising, since RTD has never been a visionary entity.

Another part is the overall mentality which exists. Back when the light rail expansion was presented to the Denver City Council, a now-former councilwoman expressed her delight with the proposal by exclaiming, "This will be great! Now people can read the latest Danielle Steele novel while getting from Point A to Point B!" That was what it meant to her. Not expanded economic development, not a way for people who might have otherwise limited options to get out of their neighborhoods, not a way to reduce the traffic on the streets and highways and thus address the continual air quality problem, but the best way to catch up on the latest bestselling romance genre without having to prop it up on your steering wheel during stop-and-go traffic.

So too, I imagine a similar mindset worked its way into the DUS redevelopment. After all the stakeholders made their pitches for their needs, the question came up of what to do with the interior of the station and then someone thought of getting various vendors together and then someone else thought of having a hotel inside and, as Jackie Gleason used to say, "Awayyyy we go!" I would guess that the idea of a destination venue became so appealing and magnetizing that it ended up consuming almost all of the planning, to the extent that the original purpose of the facility got lost and somewhat segregated in the process. I will have to pick the brains of my ColoRail contacts to find out if this is correct, but having been involved in a recent public works construction project myself, I can see where it's easy to get off-track of the original goals rather quickly based on the whims and desires of a few people with misguided vision and plenty of passion.

It sure wouldn't be the first time the Powers That Be got sucked up into someone else's fantasy. Among the fiascos which the Mile High City has found itself caught up in the past couple of decades is the Denver Grand Prix, an closed-track auto race hosted on the streets of downtown for a weekend. It went off largely as planned but fortunately the organizers ran out of money before they were able to pull it off a second year, yet not before sticking the City & County with part of the tab for infrastructure modifications and a return to normal operations. But apparently Denver was such a hotbed of racing interest and enthusiasm that it seemed like a very logical event to hold at the time. Or it was just another bold and rash idea everyone was afraid to say 'no' to for fear of being labeled as against creative events which happen to be bold and rash. So I imagine it came to be with Union Station---whatever was proposed was seen as visionary and a creative use of space. Time will only tell if it was an effective use of space.

 

[DesertDude]

Today a co-worker told me about his recent visit to DUS. His words were: "At Union Station, passengers are an afterthought."

 

[dlagrua]

Today a co-worker told me about his recent visit to DUS. His words were: "At Union Station, passengers are an afterthought."

Having been to Denver Union station the past two years (and will arrive there again next month); we view the place mainly as a lodging, restaurant, entertainment complex retail space and regional rail station They have railroad station type benches there, and a decent size waiting area for Amtrak passengers. Amtrak support activities occupy a very small area at the rear left corner of the station. That's probably considered adequate for the two LD trains that stop there daily. It is a place to wait, grab a coffee or espresso and appreciate that at the very least a historic railroad structure has been preserved and restored. It must be remembered that back in the day DUS was served by; the Santa Fe, Rock Island, C.B & Q, Union Pacific, Rio Grande, and other smaller railroads arriving and departing at a rate of 80 trains per day. At one time the Burlington and Northern offered a connection to Ft Collins and Cheyenne. .

 

[RSG]

[...] we view the place mainly as a lodging, restaurant, entertainment complex retail space and regional rail station

And the "regional rail station" part is debatable, if you never venture outside the rear of the station itself, as the heavy rail part of the light rail system is the only part closest to the station, and I've never observed many of the RTD users utilizing DUS itself, unless it's to cut through to the street or use the restrooms.

The part I find concerning is that when intercity passenger rail expands (such as the awaited Front Range corridor service), there might not be a place for it inside the building itself for its services. It could (and may likely) be said that they don't really need a space inside, but then that just reinforces the perception of the operation as a lodging, restaurant, and entertainment complex. It's fine for the preservation of a historic building, but it's being philosophically and practically underutilized. It reminds me of the old maxim "A ship in the harbor is safe, but that's not what ships were built for."

 

[railiner]

At least it still has trains, unlike what happened to St. Louis and a few other's.....

 

[Steve4031]

Iirc st Louis union station has a couple of active tracks for private cars and the Christmas trains.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Iirc st Louis union station has a couple of active tracks for private cars and the Christmas trains.

True, but its still a dying Mall that's just a shell of what it was in the Golden Age of Passenger Rail.
Shame on St. Louis!

 

[railiner]

There are several re-purposed former glorious rail stations that come to mind....some still have a semblance of trains, others nothing at all...let's see....

Kansas City

St. Paul

Cincinnati

Indianapolis

Louisville

Nashville

Salt Lake City

Omaha

Pittsburgh

Boise

you get the idea....and you can probably add several more to the list...

 

[Steve4031]

Iirc st Louis union station has a couple of active tracks for private cars and the Christmas trains.

True, but its still a dying Mall that's just a shell of what it was in the Golden Age of Passenger Rail.
Shame on St. Louis!

I agree that it's sad that this is no longer a railroad station. The Curio Union station hotel has a pretty cool theme that honors the station's past function. The rooms have puctures of trains. Each floor features a railroad. The 3rd floor is the Pennsylvania RR. Another floor is dedicated to Frisco. Etc. It's pretty cool.

 

[Bob Dylan]

There are several re-purposed former glorious rail stations that come to mind....some still have a semblance of trains, others nothing at all...let's see....

Kansas City

St. Paul

Cincinnati

Indianapolis

Louisville

Nashville

Salt Lake City

Omaha

Pittsburgh

Boise

you get the idea....and you can probably add several more to the list...

Chicago (Several)San Antonio

Houston

Dallas Union

Ft. Worth (2)

Grand Junction

Utica

Orlando Church Street

Seattle Union

Jacksonville

Cleveland

Vancouver BC Bayfront

New York Penn

etc etc etc!!!

 

[JayPea]

Add to those Spokane's Union Station which served UP and Milwaukee Road trains and the Great Northern station. Both were torn down in the early 1970's to make way for Spokane's World's Fair, Expo '74, which included consolidation of tracks to just the NP route which is in use today. IMHO the NP station which Amtrak uses today was the least impressive of the three. At least one part of the Great Northern station survives, the Clock Tower, a focal point of Riverfront Park, site of the World's Fair.

 

[jis]

There are several re-purposed former glorious rail stations that come to mind....some still have a semblance of trains, others nothing at all...let's see....

Kansas City

St. Paul

Cincinnati

Indianapolis

Louisville

Nashville

Salt Lake City

Omaha

Pittsburgh

Boise

you get the idea....and you can probably add several more to the list...

Chicago (Several)San Antonio

Houston

Dallas Union

Ft. Worth (2)

Grand Junction

Utica

Orlando Church Street

Seattle Union

Jacksonville

Cleveland

Vancouver BC Bayfront

New York Penn

etc etc etc!!!

Well, Orlando Church Street, at least notionally, has a station again. A SunRail Station.

In the New York area - Jersey City Terminal, Pavonia Terminal, Weehawken Terminal, though at least notionally Pavonia and Weehawken have just LRT and Pavonia continues to have PATH. And then of course there is the old Grand Central Station with its magnificent train shed that was torn down to build the underground structure of the Grand Central Terminal too In NJ one station that is now a Mall is the old Montclair Terminal, which has been replaced by the Montclair Bay Street station two blocks away.

The situation at Jacksonville is murky at best. The city wants to revive the old station (which is now a Convention Center) partly as a station again. But that would involve a backup move for all Amtrak trains. The New Orleans - Orlando proposal proposes to create a single platform station somewhere just to the south of the point where the line from the west joins the line to the south, presumably thus avoiding the various backup and wye moves that would be required to get it to the current Amtrak station. Any Brightline Service allegedly will go to the Convention Center. But Brightline also has a propensity to build stations at airports. So who knows? So, and this being Florida, who knows what will actually happen? Meanwhile the station is the Convention Center.

Meanwhile, at Denver, the restoration that has happened is probably the best that could be achieved given who the stakeholders are. And it does provide a very convenient transit hub, even though it may not make any major use of the old station building. It should be quite usable for one or two trains south using backup moves, like for all other trains. Alternatively platforms could be built on the through line south adjacent to the LRT terminal. There is enough space there to do so, though traffic issues may be a problem. On the whole I think the restoration is job well done given today's realities.

 

[neroden]

I think of Denver now as being the railroad hotel which traditionally sat next to a major station. The trainshed, even with the hole in the top, is the station. This is a lot better than most places including Chicago, NY Penn, and DC, so I like it.