Club car

[Larry H.]

Granted I have not ridden canadian trains for some time, but they had rather well appointed and thought out lounges and other non revenue cars. Things which amtrak has consistently down graded from the hundreds of fine examples they inherited from major rail road of the era before Amtrak. Amtrak used to leave Chicago with a Lounge on one of the New York trains that contained a sweeping circular shaped bar with oil paintings and wonderful lamps and restful stuffed chairs. All of which they removed and never tried to provide the grade of service that was normal for passenger companies to provide. You need only but to look at the old ads from travel magazines or National Geographic to see what wonderful cars had been provided the traveling public to entice them. Granted they didn't make it because at the time flying was a status symbol and trains were old hat. But in todays market of even increasing ridership there is no reason to believe that providing equipment that helps to make a trip memorable and enjoyable to more than rabid rail fans would make sense. There is a reason trains were seen as part of the vacation as much as congress seems to think otherwise. Any method of transportation that is going to take upwards of three days to compete the trip would benefit from cars that make the trip worth the cost, particularly when the customer is paying for rather expensive and ever increasing sleeper fares. You can argue from now on and I won't agree that those amfleet card table style lounges are a lounge by any standard thats worth a darn.

An as to the Canadian, there is also a reason they choose to up date the 50's rail cars and restore them to their prime days. It attracts customers. Which after all when your running a rail service is the idea. They still know what a diner looks like and how a lounge is incorporated into a consist. American is the country that has lost its way in rail service, not the other way around.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Um.... Excuse me GML, but my brother-in-law rides between Toronto and Ottawa on a regular basis. If the train is late, you AUTOMATICALLY will get a credit to apply to your next trip. No calls to customer service, no discretion on the part of the rep on the line... I've ridden it myself on a number of occaisions - not as often as the NEC, to be sure - but the trains are clean, the service is great and there is a civilized attitude on the part of the crew that is often lacking on the NEC.

So, NO, NOT end of story. Say what you will, but I respectfully disagree with you.

 

[Larry H.]

Green Manned Lion,

Your right discussing these things with people who haven't experienced the way long distance trains worth their name operated would make one not have much of a reference point to work from. Sure I rode some awful trains. One the New York Central ran to St. Louis from New York city in the early 60's. No water, frozen up windows, non reclining seats in coach on over night trains, lousy food, they wanted out of the train business for sure. What better way to run off passengers than offer lousy service. Maybe thats why when I ride amtrak and pay 5,000 for a round trip for two I seem to have the silly idea that perhaps the food and quality of cars would match the fare.

I think your over considering the price structure. Before things got tough for the railroads for all the known reasons, they ran solely first class trains.. Panama Limited, Super Chief, Twentieth Century, ect. Those trains charged pullman rates and perhaps a bit more for the added consist but were standard fare at the time. If you study the old ads you will see that even the coach passengers were treated to fine lounges, diners and chair cars with painted decor, large rest rooms, and very comfortable seating. They knew that attraction was a benefit to them. Its almost odd to see so many people think that improving something makes it out of touch with the times. People rush out to buy the latest IPod, Flat Screen TV, Computer, and spend plenty of cell phones an other perks. Why is it that its then considered that no one appreciates something a bit nicer in rail cars? My guess is that the people who are riding now are those for who the service is adequate but that many, and I have talked to quite a few on board, for who their one time try at long distance sleeper travel was probably their last. And most of those agree that the service and cars do not meet the expectations of the price they paid.

 

[Larry H.]

Gee that made two of us!

 

[Ryan]

Where is the money going to come from for that level of service, Larry?

You already complain about the high costs of tickets, and you've indicated that you're not interested in paying more in taxes, so just how do you think Amtrak is going to come up with the funds to outfit cars in the manner in which you desire?

 

[Guest]

How do expect to argue with GML about the class the trains in America used to have. After all, he is 26 yrs old.

 

[rrdude]

Where is the money going to come from for that level of service, Larry?

You already complain about the high costs of tickets, and you've indicated that you're not interested in paying more in taxes, so just how do you think Amtrak is going to come up with the funds to outfit cars in the manner in which you desire?

Corporate advertising, and outfitting. The "IBM Club Car". Club lounge brought to you by Microsoft.......... It could work.

 

[Ryan]

Gee that made two of us!

How do expect to argue with GML about the class the trains in America used to have. After all, he is 26 yrs old.

Logging out and posting as a guest to try and bolster your argument is pretty disingenuous, Larry. Particularly when you screw it up and stay logged in.

Where is the money going to come from for that level of service, Larry?

You already complain about the high costs of tickets, and you've indicated that you're not interested in paying more in taxes, so just how do you think Amtrak is going to come up with the funds to outfit cars in the manner in which you desire?

Corporate advertising, and outfitting. The "IBM Club Car". Club lounge brought to you by Microsoft.......... It could work.

Haven't we discussed that here recently? If there was good money in it, I'd wager that you'd see companies clamoring to do it. Plus, there would be all sorts of logistical issues with having uneven level of service provided by different cars in different consists.

 

[Palmland]

The best 'lounge' on the Viewliner trains is your roomette or bedroom in the sleeper. Your attendant will gladly bring you ice and glasses and beverage of choice - or bring your own. Actually the glasses are plastic and on a couple occasions we brought real ones.

 

[Donctor]

An as to the Canadian, there is also a reason they choose to up date the 50's rail cars and restore them to their prime days. It attracts customers. Which after all when your running a rail service is the idea. They still know what a diner looks like and how a lounge is incorporated into a consist. American is the country that has lost its way in rail service, not the other way around.

In this situation, there were/are two options:

1 – Have a fleet of "nice" (and endlessly expensive to maintain) cars that attract tourists.

2 - Attempt to maintain as efficient a rail system as possible, so that customers are attracted to the train because it's a useful travel choice.

VIA, including its Corridor to a certain degree, has stuck to the former (with the exception of the Hudson Bay, which really does provide an essential service for the seventeen people who have yet to migrate to more southernly points).

Amtrak has veered more toward the latter (though the California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, and Coast Starlight are "tourist trains," as is the Builder to a large degree).

 

[Donctor]

Why is it that its then considered that no one appreciates something a bit nicer in rail cars?

Typically, at least in railfan groups, it's the nostalgic, out-of-touch railfans who want something a bit nicer. On the train, that's not necessarily the case.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Um.... Excuse me GML, but my brother-in-law rides between Toronto and Ottawa on a regular basis. If the train is late, you AUTOMATICALLY will get a credit to apply to your next trip. No calls to customer service, no discretion on the part of the rep on the line... I've ridden it myself on a number of occaisions - not as often as the NEC, to be sure - but the trains are clean, the service is great and there is a civilized attitude on the part of the crew that is often lacking on the NEC.

So, NO, NOT end of story. Say what you will, but I respectfully disagree with you.

Wow, they give you a refund for bad service. Whoop de whoo. Pfui. There are those of us in this train stuff that aren't just rail fans and spoiled brats. Its railfans like you and Larry that get us branded as a cult, that get services cut, that useful transportation services killed.

I like trains. I enjoy travel on them. But I am not a rail fan. I'm a transit advocate. I don't want a bleedin' refund when the service gets there late. I want to get there, when I want to get there, and I want to get there on time. I want to be able to leave NY within an average of 30 minutes of entering the station and arrive in Washington DC in less than four hours. I want this to happen reliably. If the lounge car has a piano, that's nice. Stuff the piano if that means the train is going to not be the above.

Amtrak runs the best service that congress allows them to run. They don't make money doing it. They can raise the standards to how you see fit, Larry, and not raise the fares- and lose more money and get the hell shut down. They can raise the fares to Canadian levels, and lose the people who really use them for transportation. Amtrak costs about what Greyhound does. At about 3X the cost, I'd rather ride the dog.

I think trains are a much nicer way to travel than bus or plane for a variety of reasons. I don't stare all doey eyed at the things, or get hard to them, or get off to them. They are a nice way to get from point A to point B.

The more ways I can get from Point A to Point B without tiring myself out at the wheel or getting my dignity violated, the better.

If you want more than that, YOU get yourself a calculator, a contract with Bombardier, and some paper, and you figure out what you are going to charge to make money moving people from point A to B while plating the damned thing in gold.

How do expect to argue with GML about the class the trains in America used to have. After all, he is 26 yrs old.

Yeah, I'm 26. I operate in the present, not the past.

 

[TVRM610]

Also... Amtrak can't just decide they want pretty chairs in a car and plop them down. The cars, seats, and tables have to be bolted down in ways the FRA approves. The lounge cars of yesterday would not be approved by the FRA I'm sure.

The "diner-lite" cars were not designed to be lounges. No one at Amtrak said "let's design a lounge car this way." The diner lite cars exist because Amtrak is out of options and money for single level equipment. The diner lite cars were designed to be multi-purpose, they can be used as "cafe" cars, or "diner" cars if needed.

One day, hopefully there will be a budget for Viewliner Lounge cars, I will expect them to look nice. The new SSL cars coming out of beech grove are quite pretty in my opinion.

 

[Donctor]

Just for those who are interested, I believe this page shows the old Amfleet II lounge seating configuration.

 

[AlanB]

How do expect to argue with GML about the class the trains in America used to have. After all, he is 26 yrs old.

Logging out and posting as a guest to try and bolster your argument is pretty disingenuous, Larry. Particularly when you screw it up and stay logged in.

That wasn't Larry, totally different IP in a totally different part of the country.

 

[rrdude]

Gee that made two of us!

How do expect to argue with GML about the class the trains in America used to have. After all, he is 26 yrs old.

Logging out and posting as a guest to try and bolster your argument is pretty disingenuous, Larry. Particularly when you screw it up and stay logged in.

Where is the money going to come from for that level of service, Larry?

You already complain about the high costs of tickets, and you've indicated that you're not interested in paying more in taxes, so just how do you think Amtrak is going to come up with the funds to outfit cars in the manner in which you desire?

Corporate advertising, and outfitting. The "IBM Club Car". Club lounge brought to you by Microsoft.......... It could work.

Haven't we discussed that here recently? If there was good money in it, I'd wager that you'd see companies clamoring to do it. Plus, there would be all sorts of logistical issues with having uneven level of service provided by different cars in different consists.

Yes, we discussed it B4, but I still think it would work. I'm stubborn (stoopid) like that. Corporate "advertising" is all around us, museums, public TV, public radio, yada, yada, someone just needs the stones to try it. (and be prepared to update their resume if it falls flat) Think of it. A "Microsoft Lounge" with all the coolest and latest Microsoft "gadgets" on display for the patrons to use. OK, may that would be flop. How about "Club Apple"?

Or the piano-lounge car, brought to you by Budweiser.

And, just because I'm stubborn, I think at some point, some organization, or individual, will create a "JD Power-Like" Amtrak Employee-of-the-year award too.

 

[Ryan]

How do expect to argue with GML about the class the trains in America used to have. After all, he is 26 yrs old.

Logging out and posting as a guest to try and bolster your argument is pretty disingenuous, Larry. Particularly when you screw it up and stay logged in.

That wasn't Larry, totally different IP in a totally different part of the country.

Thanks. Lord only knows what his "That makes two of us" comment was supposed to mean, then.

 

[Larry H.]

Its too bad that in a discussion of what a lounge is and was and might still be one is attacked as some kind of weirdo for expecting or hoping for a bit nicer designs from amtrak in the future. I realize that the internet is full of people who relish the idea of disagreeing and then calling others names but this board has never been one of them until lately. I thought the idea here was to foster rail traffic in this country. Settling for the most spartan of cars shouldn't be our goal. Somehow supporters of amtrak here of late are only interested in defending what many have found to be less than satisfactory service and consist. ( I hope you can understand that). Many here have mentioned how lounges at one time were designed. Settling for a set of bench seats with a table between them as a lounge is not satisfactory to me or many others I am sure.

I realize the limitations put on Amtrak by congress. I think what many are trying to say is that with some imaginative thinking cars might be a bit more pleasant than current offerings. If that is silly thinking, then I am guilty. Lets realize too that the CS runs the very popular first class lounges which are often the topic of the reasons some here wish to experience that train. Why then is it so crazy to think that other trains might not benefit from similar cars? Someone in Amtrak with some passenger experience suggested that as a traffic builder and it has been a draw for sure. No one is saying amtrak has currently the ability to do this on all long distance trains. What I am suggesting is that when new cars are created a few idea that once made the Lounge a great place to enjoy the ride, relax and watch the scenery or read a book, could fairly easily be done. Design is a matter of how things are laid out, what kinds of seating and wall treatments are used. Look at the popular cruise ship industry. Every new liner is shown to be fancier and provide better services that the last. In the days when trains were competing for the passenger dollar they too understood the advantages of having a train that people wanted to ride because the experience of getting there was a part of the vacation or trip.

I do not think the personal attack methods used here of late by those who hold opposing views is helpful to free and open discussion of what is or could be. There are two sides to every discussion and I welcome both. I hope some others will rethink there current name calling and scorn for those who may hold a different point of view.

 

[Ryan]

Nobody's calling you names, Larry, so quit complaining. My disagreement is with the reality of your posts, It's all well and good to opine about what could be, but realistically it isn't going to happen for quite some time, unless you'e willing to pay higher fares or have more government subsidy money go to Amtrak. You've very clearly stated your disagreement with both of those.

There's a reason that the kind of luxury and service that you pine for has fallen by the wayside, people aren't willing to spend the kind of money required to have that level of service. It's why the freight railroads wanted to get rid of the passenger trains and why we have Amtrak today.

Complaining with no solution doesn't do a thing to foster rail travel in this country and only paints us as members of that "train cult" that aren't interested in realistic solutions to todays transportation needs.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I find it amusing that my having the 'nerve' to have a thought or idea that certain people disagree with causes them to resort to tactics along the lines of implying I'm a cult loving spoiled brat. It may make them feel superior, but in reality they don't do their views any favor in the court of public opinion. I don't let the fact that they are obviously so unhappy bother me. In fact, I feel rather sorry for them. What is too bad is that such nonsense diminishes and discourages the exchange of ideas in a forum such as this. Merry Christmas to EVERYONE. Peace to all mankind.

 

[Ryan]

You couldn't be more wrong (I couldn't be happier), and your passive-agressive posts don't do you any favors either.

Feel free to have whatever thought or your opinion you want to, but be prepared to back them up with some realism, rather than just play the victim when it's pointed out that your ideas aren't practical.

 

[zephyr17]

Riding mostly in the west, I find the "lounge" facilities on the Eastern single level LDs are pretty bad. They aren't pleasant to hang around in, they are not particularly comfortable and they are certainly not attractive. While the Superliner Sightseer may not be super plush, they are not spartan either. They are attractive cars (or were before the bad blue paint job they did a couple of years ago that is now peeling and bubbling badly). So Amtrak does not have to be spartan. This discussion makes me sorry I don't think I ever saw an Amfleet II lounge before they were converted.

I don't think it would break the bank to create a more welcoming lounge/cafe. After all, they spent a bunch of cash mutilating a bunch of perfectly good diners to make the diner/lounges (CCCs) that now they can't find good uses for.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

My post was not even directed at you Ryan, but if the shoe fits, by all means wear it.

 

[Ryan]

My apologies - I couldn't imagine who else it could have possibly been directed to.

 

[Guest]

You couldn't be more wrong (I couldn't be happier), and your passive-agressive posts don't do you any favors either.

Feel free to have whatever thought or your opinion you want to, but be prepared to back them up with some realism, rather than just play the victim when it's pointed out that your ideas aren't practical.

Who put you in charge. Who are you to say someones ideas aren't practical.