Clearing customs in Vancouver at train station

[jis]

Just like the US agency is called US Customs and Border Protection (US CBP) which handles both Customs and Immigration at the border, the Canadian agency is called CBSA for Canadian Border Services Agency, which handles both Customs and Immigration at the border. Essentially no difference in the roles played by the two agencies between US and Canada.

Colloquially in conversation often confusing terminology is used referring to the agents as Customs Agents. That does not mean that either CBSA or CBP agents don't know which role they are playing. Canadian and US officials know the difference. People posting on this forum may not know or may gloss over the difference in their posting.

 

[fairviewroad]

The sad thing is, there isn't anything I can do to raise this or report him.

Well, one thing you could do is to contact the sponsor of whatever conference you were going

to attend and let them know why you never showed up. This would of course require disclosing

your DWI arrest but if you think your banishment from Canada was unreasonable you can certainly

"vote with your wallet" so to speak and let others know why you are doing so. This in turn could

result in increased pressure on the Canadian authorities to encourage their agents to be a little

more nuanced, shall we say, in their treatment of business travelers.

But like others have said, the immigration agent has broad authority to "call 'em like they see's 'em"

and I suspect that's not going to change anytime soon.

I'm sorry that you had that experience. If you do get acquitted please let us know here. If you get

convicted, though, you have no sympathy from me.

 

[zephyr17]

Just to be clear this has nothing to do with the Railroad. This is Canada not wanting someone who was recently arrested for DUI coming into their country. That makes perfect sense to me as I feel like DUI is still not taken serious enough in this country.

To the OP... Guess you should have thought about the consequences before drinking and driving.

'Cept in this country, we have a presumption of innocence- innocent until proven guilty... oh, Canada does, too. Adomonishing a person who has not been convicted that he or she should have thought about the consequences... well, that's patronizing. And useless.

I suspect Canada's issue here may actually be more subtle than a dislike of how the US handles DUI... the border agent, I'm speculating, was concerned about a person currently in the middle of criminal legal procedings in the United States perhaps fleeing to Canada.

Entering a country you are not a citizen of is a privilege, not a right. Not being allowed to enter Canada because you are suspected of DUI does not violate your intrinsic rights, you don't have that one. Immigration agents have wide latitude in deciding who can and cannot enter their country, they are not a court of law and they don't have to be one. They are not determing guilt or innocence or determining punishment, they are deciding if you are eligible to enter their country, which you not automatically entitled to do.
A lot of things work differently at the border when seeking permission to enter a country. Try invoking your 4th Amendment rights against warrentless search and seizure at the border and see how far you get.

By the way, you probably aren't going to have a choice about going back or not. Being denied entry is a BIG black mark for any country, and Canada will keep a record of that.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I have visited Canada hundreds of times (my Late wife was Canadian and I lived there for a year)and entered via Car, Air, Ship and Train and have never been treated Rudely but have seen people denied entry for a Variety of Reasons and even Arrested but this is True of the US also! ! (This is also true of Mexico until a Small "Consideration", ie Bribe was provided!)The Reasons Generally involved Drugs and Alcohol Related Legal Problems but also Child Custody Issues, Outstanding Warrants, Improper ID and telling Lies to the CBSA when questioned! When you buy a ticket to Canada, whether via Air, Sea or Train, you give your ID Info to the Company that sells you the Ticket and as was said, this Info is provided to the CBP! I'm not aware of the Screening Process that is used by the Canadian Government (unlike our "Announced" Policy of Not doing it most Countries Profile Visitors) but have heard some Questions asked of persons trying to enter Canada that could only have been known by having such Information available by having run a Screen on said person before they got to Canada! (ie Criminal History, Marital and Child Custody Status etc.)

As has been said, the CBSA Agent is THE SOLE Authority on whether or not one is Admitted to the Country and this is True of the US also! The Agent that was Rude to you and made you Cry is probably lacking in Social and PR Skills and is probably, in Fact ,a Bully and in need of Re-training but their Word is Final!

Hopefully your Legal issues will be Resolved, DUI is currently a Hot Political Issue and we have signs all over Texas that say "Drink, Drive, Go to Jail!" Hopefully you wont, and not to be preachy, but hopefully you wont Drink and Drive ever Again! Zero Tolerance is a Good Policy!

I'm not a Lawyer but Pleading Guilty is Not a Good Idea, consult your Attorney for Better Options!

 

[zephyr17]

I have visited Canada hundreds of times (my Late wife was Canadian and I lived there for a year)and entered via Car, Air, Ship and Train and have never been treated Rudely but have seen people denied entry for a Variety of Reasons and even Arrested but this is True of the US also! ! (This is also true of Mexico until a Small "Consideration", ie Bribe was provided!)The Reasons Generally involved Drugs and Alcohol Related Legal Problems but also Child Custody Issues, Outstanding Warrants, Improper ID and telling Lies to the CBP when questioned! When you buy a ticket to Canada, whether via Air, Sea or Train, you give your ID Info to the Company that sells you the Ticket and as was said, this Info is provided to the CBP! I'm not aware of the Screening Process that is used by the Canadian Government but have heard some Questions asked of persons trying to enter Canada that could only have been known by having such Information available by having run a Screen on said person before they got to Canada! (ie Criminal History, Marital and Child Custody Status etc.)
As has been said, the CPB Agent is THE SOLE Authority on whether or not one is Admitted to the Country and this is True of the US also! The Agent that was Rude to you and made you Cry is probably lacking in Social and PR Skills and is probably, in Fact ,a Bully and in need of Re-training but their Word is Final!

Hopefully your Legal issues will be Resolved, DUI is currently a Hot Political Issue and we have signs all over Texas that say "Drink, Drive, Go to Jail!" Hopefully you wont, and not to be preachy, but hopefully you wont Drink and Drive ever Again! Zero Tolerance is a Good Policy!

Canadian CBSA agents have real time access to US NCIS(?) criminal history database right at their station.

 

[jis]

And they know who is coming in on a train because Amtrak provides that information in fulfilling APIS requirements. So they have ample time to screen those that are coming in ahead of their arrival.

 

[FriskyFL]

If the DUI charge is eventually dismissed, or the defendant is found not guilty, would his chances of being admitted to Canada improve? Or is he persona non grata in the Great White North forever?

 

[Not Going Back]

I really appreciate everyone's comments and feedback. Look, we all make mistakes and I made one. I'm owning it, not running away from it. I am very law-abiding and have a totally clean record to date. My entire point with posting, asking, and investigating with a lawyer, is to help educate other people who might be in the same situation. If I had known that there was a chance I would be denied entry despite no conviction (because that's all the info that's out there about inadmissibility) I wouldn't have gone - especially if it means I have some mark on my record now with Canada.

If he checked my passport he would have seen several Europe trips recently - definitely not trying to escape to a country with strict DUI laws to escape. That makes no sense to me. I just want other people who might be going through the same pending case to be aware, especially if going through this border crossing, that they could be denied and save them the hassle, humiliation, and potential further traumatization.

 

[Eris]

I was unclear in my post- I wasn't faulting the Canadian border patrol agent- they're going to do what they're going to do, and I'm certainly in no position to protest that. I was faulting the previous poster who said, "Guess you should have thought about the consequences before drinking and driving," for jumping the gun on blaming the accused and being patronizing about it.

 

[zephyr17]

I really appreciate everyone's comments and feedback. Look, we all make mistakes and I made one. I'm owning it, not running away from it. I am very law-abiding and have a totally clean record to date. My entire point with posting, asking, and investigating with a lawyer, is to help educate other people who might be in the same situation. If I had known that there was a chance I would be denied entry despite no conviction (because that's all the info that's out there about inadmissibility) I wouldn't have gone - especially if it means I have some mark on my record now with Canada.
If he checked my passport he would have seen several Europe trips recently - definitely not trying to escape to a country with strict DUI laws to escape. That makes no sense to me. I just want other people who might be going through the same pending case to be aware, especially if going through this border crossing, that they could be denied and save them the hassle, humiliation, and potential further traumatization.

If you are acquitted, or plead down to something not considered a felony in Canada, I'd get in touch with a Canadian Consulate to straighten your admissibility because of the denial of entry. If you were acquitted before trying to enter, there wouldn't be a record of denied entry. Since there is, if it were me, I'd get it straightened out with the consulate and Canadian Immigration before I went. Even working it out beforehand, I'd still expect heightened questioning in any case because of the denial.
PS-I have no idea what charge you could plead down to and have it be okay with Canada, but there probably is one (reckless perhaps?). If that is a concern to you, have a lawyer versed in Canadian immigration check it out before accepting the plea.

 

[SarahZ]

It may not have been so much an issue of thinking you were "escaping" to Canada as them taking a chance you'll drink and drive in Canada. They very likely have a strict list of "yes/no" charges, and I'd bet $10 a DUI is on the "no" list, pending court trial or not.

 

[Bob Dylan]

It may not have been so much an issue of thinking you were "escaping" to Canada as them taking a chance you'll drink and drive in Canada. They very likely have a strict list of "yes/no" charges, and I'd bet $10 a DUI is on the "no" list, pending court trial or not.

You are Correct Sorcha, Drug and Alcohol Issues , Gun and Child Custody Matters are the Big Flags for Canadas Border Agents but ANY Felony ,and even some Misdemeanors, can Deny you Entry into the Great White North!!

 

[Mr Sunshine]

Interesting discussion. There really is a dearth of solid 'real world' information about entering Canada with a DUI conviction (or even a charge). I've reached out to the Consulate, Border Agency, Immigration Attorney and personal acquaintances. The answers are clear as mud:

Consulate: no time frame for TRP response, but with Foreign Service strike, assume 6 months to a year - basically making pre-applying for a TRP a non-starter for business meetings that aren't scheduled a year in advance.

Border Agency: responded with a screen shot of the rehabilitation options (pointing to Consulate, above).

Attorney: don't bother trying to get in.

Real People: no problem getting in, even when 'forgetting' to note conviction (even convictions less than a year old).

I've read the actual guidelines provided to border agents and they appear to indicate that a business function can be considered a valid reason for entry.

So my question: I have a DUI conviction from last year - only mark on a clean record. I have a business function at our Canadian office in Vancouver in November. My only option (if I go) is to apply for a TRP at airport. With complete honesty, itinerary, letters from my employer and documentation that my sentence has been served, what are the odds that I will be sent back? Given the 10's of millions of people travelling to Canada and the less than 7000 that get rejected, it seems like the story above is the exception rather than the rule. The one fact that disputes 'inadmissible under any circumstances' is the number of 'real people' with DUI convictions that get in (with no TRP or rehabilitation).

 

[CHamilton]

Border Patrol's Horrific Treatment Of On The Media's Producer, Family & Friends Highlights The Lack Of Accountability From DHS

By now we've all heard plenty of stories about ridiculous goings on at the border by Homeland Security's Customs and Border Patrol agents. We've written many times about questionable electronics searches. Still, I urge people to listen to the story that On The Media producer Sarah Abdurrahman did for last week's episode, all about how she, her family and friends were all detained at the Canadian border for around six hours, the treatment they received and the lack of answers that anyone is willing to give when she asked questions (as a journalist) about these actions. Listen to it and try not to get angry at the shameful behavior of these agents supposedly representing our country....Basically, the CBP seems to act like you'd expect pretty much any group in authority with no oversight to act. They seem to feel free to terrorize people just because they can and because there are no recriminations. And there's basically nothing to be done about this. Abdurrahman finds out that they can submit a complaint, but that such complaints rarely lead to anything, other than getting a cursory letter saying that the complaint has been "dismissed."

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I've traveled all over the world myself, and never once been denied entry. However, I often find the process of admittance confusing and arbitrary. I've been questioned and searched in various countries and it's never clear to me what I've done or haven't done that suddenly risks the success of my trip. When I've researched what the "rules" are I've found that they're generally vague and undefined and that the actions of those who perform these checks are largely unchecked themselves. Why anyone from a democracy would cheer on a situation custom made for routine abuse is quite beyond my comprehension. But time and again I sense a certain zeal and affection toward the actions of boarder agencies in the posts of some members. Lower and middle class folks must generally plan trips well in advance in order to secure a reasonable rate, even though the border agencies can sit and wait until the last moment to consider refusing or detaining you. That leaves most of us at the mercy of a system that can sabotage years of planning and saving with nothing more than a hunch or a shrug.

 

[California Dreamin]

I'm going to try and bring this interesting thread back around...I noticed the last post was more than 2 weeks ago...here goes

My husband and I just booked an Alaskan Cruise for September 2014. It sets sail from Vancouver (we'll literally be in Vancouver for a couple hours). We both live in the states with US citizenship, however, I also have Canadian citizenship (but i travel with a US passport). My husband got a DUI back in Aug 2006, found guilty, and paid the piper. I think he had a number of community service days to complete. He has since had a clean record. We are trying to figure out what steps we should take (if any) to make sure he doesn't get turned around at the Amtrak station (we'll be coming up from Seattle by train). Reading this thread has me terrified that he'll get put on the next train back south and I'll be left with our 1 year old trying to decide if I should just blow off our $5k cruise that we've been wanting to do for years. We both know people that have DUIs that have gotten into Canada on several occasions without issue, but that is such a risk.

I've been reading around on Canada's immigration websites and found that since his DUI was more than 5 years ago, he's eligible for rehabilitation. That seems like the safest bet, as once you are deemed rehabilitated you no longer have to worry about being denied at the boarder. That sounds great, since I have family up in Canada that I'd like us all to be able to visit. My husband is worried that if he applies for rehabilitation, and for some reason is denied, that it will raise a big flag when we try to head up there next year and that he'll get denied at the boarder for sure.

Do any of you have any experience with someone filing for rehabilitation? Or traveling into Canada with your Canadian citizen spouse (if that affects his chances of getting in)? Thanks!

 

[jis]

Here is a denial of entry story this time by the US. The train involved is the Adirondack....

http://dasmag.nl/why-i-will-never-return-to-the-usa/

 

[Bob Dylan]

"California Dreamin": Number 1,) Contact the Canadian Consulate (I believe it is in LA but there could be One in San Francisco Also??) This seems to Be one of Those "It Depends!" Situations with No Clear Answer! (My Late Wife was a Canadian Citiizen with a US Green Card which she used to go/to from Canada, not her Canadian Passport! When she Passed away I arranged to take her Ashes to Canada through the Candian Consulate in Dallas and I received the most Professional and Helpful Service I Ever Had and ive been Alll Over the World! MY Worst Experiences in International Travel Always were the Government Officials that Greeted You upon Arrival in the USA!!!

Number 2) For a Trip Involving that Amount of Money I would say Buy Trip Insurance, it's Worth It!!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Here is a denial of entry story this time by the US. The train involved is the Adirondack....

http://dasmag.nl/why-i-will-never-return-to-the-usa/

A perfect Example of Abuse of Power! The Old Saw about "I'm just Doing My Job!" Doesn't Apply here! And to think,Sometimes they Treat American Citizens as Bad or Even Worse!!! :help:

 

[Jay]

If you really need to go to Canada and have a DUI or other conviction, I'd encourage you to contact an immigration lawyer with experience dealing with those issues. The expense may be worth it compared to trying to navigate another country's bureaucracy on your own.

That said, I enter Canada by air 3-4 times a year, and never experience much hassle (and I don't have a NEXUS). I also used to drive across a fair amount and seldom got much questioning, although that was mostly before 9/11. The only common issue, for my Canadian citizen relatives, was questions about how much shopping they'd done in the US, to see if they could charge them some kind of duty.

My guess is that trains, like buses, are viewed with particular suspicion as "backdoor" routes across the border, more likely to be used by drug smugglers, and possibly fugitives, than air travel (which is more expensive) or private car (which indicates you can at least afford your own vehicle, and they can check the license tag, etc).

 

[California Dreamin]

Hi again,

When time permits, I've been able to look into filing for rehabilitation for my husband. It looks as though the average turn around time is >1 year, so that won't work for our upcoming trip. However, while researching, I came across this

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/bulletins/2012/ob389.asp and http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=143&t=8

So, if I understand correctly, we could be allowed to enter since it will be his first time entering the country. I've read some experiences where the boarder official will make you pay the CAD200 for the TRP, and some that don't. I guess we'll find out when we get there.

Either way, I'm feeling a little better about crossing the boarder. When I heard of the time it took to get approval for rehabilitation, I almost cancelled our trip. I'm glad I read a little further.