Christie kiled the ARC tunnel

[jis]

Before we go off name calling here, one might want to be aware that a significant portion of the rail advocacy groups around NY and NJ are not particularly unhappy with that particular set of tunnels not being built. Christie probably did half a right thing for mostly the wrong reasons, though he has also mentioned two things:

1. The tunnels should have connected to Penn Station, perhaps to placate the rail advocacy groups.

2. The way to proceed now is to come up with a plan for collaborative development of trans-Hudson capacity with Amtrak, Port Authority and the Feds, which actually makes way more sense and potentially addresses the funding issue to some extent.

But it remains to be see whether he will proceed to do the other half of the right thing.

The tunnels will be needed eventually, in 15 years maybe, but it is not at all clear that this was the best use of the money, the way this set of tunnels was designed. Meanwhile, there are many things that can be done to address immediate overcrowding issues, which ironically is reduced some due to the enormous fare hikes, a definite Christie wrong decision.

But again the fact still remains that unless a stable source of operating bugets can be found, just building capital infrastructure is a waste of money, since there will not be funds available to operate anything on the infrastructure.

Meanwhile, getting the NJT bureaucracy to come to the realization that they cannot just continuously ignore everyone that produces cogent arguments against what they want to do to preserve and expand their bureaucratic fiefdoms at the cost of the taxpayers, is a positive development in and of itself. They do need to understand that they are our employees and need to start to behave reflecting that fact.

Meanwhile in NJ many are relieved that we might actually get some funding again for some intra-state projects like the Lackawanna Cutoff, MOM and West Trenton and Glassboro, which were all pretty much given up as dead for now because of the incessant vacuum cleaner under the Hudson that was sucking up every available penny and then some.

 

[AlanB]

Meanwhile in NJ many are relived that we migtht actually get some funding again for some intra-state projects like the Lackawanna Cutoff, MOM and West Trenton and Glassboro, which were all pretty much given up as dead for now because of the incessant vacuum cleaner under the Hudson that was sucking up every available penny and then some.

I can't imagine that any of the saved money from this project is going to find it's way into any train projects. That won't buy Christie enough votes for his coming Presidential bid. That money will go into the roads so that he can avoid raising the gas tax, and NJ has one of the lowest if not the lowest taxes around, so that he can look like a hero.

And yes, I do agree that the tunnel as planned had issues, but that still didn't make it useless either.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I think I'm gonna have to agree with Alan on this one. A lot of political capitol is being expended on killing the tunnel. Whatever comes next won't be rail-based or it might confuse the very same voters Christie is trying so hard to appeal to.

 

[jis]

Meanwhile in NJ many are relived that we migtht actually get some funding again for some intra-state projects like the Lackawanna Cutoff, MOM and West Trenton and Glassboro, which were all pretty much given up as dead for now because of the incessant vacuum cleaner under the Hudson that was sucking up every available penny and then some.

I can't imagine that any of the saved money from this project is going to find it's way into any train projects. That won't buy Christie enough votes for his coming Presidential bid. That money will go into the roads so that he can avoid raising the gas tax, and NJ has one of the lowest if not the lowest taxes around, so that he can look like a hero.

And yes, I do agree that the tunnel as planned had issues, but that still didn't make it useless either.

First of all I agree on the gas tax issue. But having said that....

Nothing is useless if one completely ignores ROI. Soon after these tunnels were completed Amtrak would have started spending another $15 billion on another set of tunnels (with of course its own cost overruns etc. ) which arguably are not really necessary, if the original new set of tunnels would connect to the right place in the first place. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I would like to see the basis of the astounding traffic growth projections.

Actually it is after seeing Amtrak's plan that I got fully convinced that this set of tunnels really needed to be killed off for good while it was possible, and have the Amtrak proposal be used as the basis for the tunnels that actually get built. So I am not unhappy to see them gone personally.

The NJ part of the money saved (not the federal contribution) will go into the TTF, and we will see how that is spent. Of course nothing is cast in stone either way. Also, another fact that is slowly coming out is that there was no money on the expense budget side planned with sources identified to actually operate a single additional train through the new tunnel. So as it stands conceivably we would have a spanking new tunnel with mostly nothing running through it. Well except for the only 30 something Midtown Directs a day, which are already funded, and a handful of redirected Main/Bergen trains, if they did not cancel the loop-de-loop connection due to budget overruns, which was a distinct possibility.

It also is certain that at least for now the southern span of the Portal replacement will not be built since it has nowhere to connect to absent the new tunnels. That is another $775 million (which may or may not be part of the numbers being bandied about depending on who you talk to, which conceivably could hasten the construction of the much needed northern span. Again, nothing cast in stone, since the northern span is supposed to be funded jointly by Amtrak and NJDOT, with help from the feds, while the southern span was supposed to be a NJT/FTA project.

Additional fun stuff discovered is that some of the contracts let out were possibly illegal, since the losing bidders just joined the winners thus raising the possibility that the whole bidding process was a sham. The investigation on that is just starting up from what I am told.

We have certainly not seen the end of all this yet.

Incidentally, many in New Jersey are now actually coming out agreeing with the premise that a tunnel to New York makes sense for New Jersey only in the context of a Regional solution rather than as a single handed NJ project. There is enough infrastructure, existing and new in NJ that needs attention far more urgently than an exclusive NJ use tunnel to New York. Inevitably, the only way for NJ to build tunnels to New York single handedly would shortchange these more urgent needs within the state.

BTW, here is a smaple of some stuff that is coming out in the press on this matter:

1. LaHood on ARC: One derailment won't stop progress

2. Frankly, Lautenberg and LaHood deserve the blame for the ARC fiasco - Paul Mulshine/Star Ledger

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The NJ part of the money saved (not the federal contribution) will go into the TTF, and we will see how that is spent.

First they also have to pay the federal government back from their own coffers, correct? Maybe the federal money can quickly be allocated to a state that is ready to move forward now without insisting on financial protections that will probably never come. Unless I'm mistaken the window of opportunity will be closing soon and anything that's not underway very near future will likely be suspended once the new congress assumes power.

 

[jis]

The NJ part of the money saved (not the federal contribution) will go into the TTF, and we will see how that is spent.

First they also have to pay the federal government back from their own coffers, correct? Maybe the federal money can quickly be allocated to a state that is ready to move forward now without insisting on financial protections that will probably never come. Unless I'm mistaken the window of opportunity will be closing soon and anything that's not underway very near future will likely be suspended once the new congress assumes power.

Yes, this bag of federal money will most likely go elsewhere. However, if it is true that there will be a pressing need for additional tunnels as part of NEC, then eventually federal money will materialize again, NJ and NY state monies and PANYNJ money. OTOH, if there is no pressing need then there will not be money and that is just as well. Actually not having this budget overhang might indeed make it easier to get funding for the more sensible Amtrak plan for Hudson (and East River) crossings and Penn Station expansion, when the time comes.

No point in pissing federal money down into the drain under 34th St at this point, into a station that can never get further interconnection to anything to the east due to the presence of the NY City Water Tunnel #1 at the east end of the proposed station, notwithstanding NJT's protestations to the contrary.

I was at the RCLC where NJT stated this protestation. They were duly challenged and were completely unable to substantiate any basis for their claim that the water tunnel will get removed as an obstacle. Apparently it was a mere wishful thinking on their part that no one from New York City was willing to corroborate. I was one of the people that raised this issue in my deposition before the RCLC. NJT first tried to ignore the question and then tried to obfuscate around it.

IMHO eventually we will get a more cost effective and better solution, but it will be 5 to 10 years later than the current proposal would have got us a less cost effective and poorly connected solution. But I hasten to add this is purely speculation on my part, and if one subscribes to the theory of "bird in hand is better than two in the bush" irrespective of the overall cost and benefit (or lack thereof), then my speculation would be viewed as pointless.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I agree with Jishnu almost completely. Its unfortunate that we couldn't simply restructure the project, but barring that I am glad its dead. We'd be stuck with a stupid white elephant otherwise.

 

[jis]

A few interesting developments at the recent (10th Nov) NJ Transit Board meeting relative to the now canceled ARC project.....

At this meeting NARP, NJ-ARP, Lackawanna Coalition, and the Regional Railroad Working Group presented written testimony supporting the cancellation of the ARC project. The Tri State Transportation Campaign gave oral testimony opposing the Governor's decision.

In addition NJ-ARP testified that there is no justification for going through with the add-on order for 100 MLVs and 10 dual power locomotives since their primary use was to be in ARC Macy's basement station. They requested that these add-on orders be canceled forthwith and the saved money be applied to like number of EMUs at an appropriate time.

All of those that testified in support of the cancellation of ARC also strongly recommended that NJ Transit start working with Amtrak to come up with a solution benefiting both. The Transport Commissioner expressed an opinion concurring with that sentiment. Since then the Governor's office has also explicitly made statements supporting such and NJT has started talking to Amtrak.

The issue of decision making process and governance of the ARC project also came up. Specifically the issue of the 1200 page full report that was hidden away by the previous NJT management but was used to produce the short summary document eliding all details that would enable anyone to validate or refute the conclusions reached, that killed off Alternative G was discussed. NJ Transit had used the excuse that since that document is a DRAFT it falls beyond the reach of any request for public release. NJT had consistently stonewalled the release of this critical document that was used to make one of the most crucial decisions to not meet one of the fundamental goals of the original Scoping document. The Commissioner and the Executive Director both stated that if a request under the NJ equivalent of the federal FOIA request were made in writing to remove the document's Draft status and release it to the public, they would take the necessary steps to release it to the public. So, if they do follow through on that, finally we may know the actual real reason why decisions were taken and whether they were consistent with known facts or if something else was the determining factor. Naturally there are several organizations that are crafting such requests.

As usual, what will come of all this one never knows. But at least things are not standing still and they seem to be moving in a direction that is not entirely hopeless.

In other news a second testimony from NJ-ARP concerned the Princeton Dinky, opposing its conversion to Bus, and supporting possible conversion to LRT if that would reduce cost of operation. NJT Management said that they are backing off from the BRT proposal and are in the process of crafting a resolution in support of continuing the Dinky as is for now. This after the Princeton community soundly defeated an attempt by a previous Mayor of Princeton trying to pass a resolution in support of conversion to BRT.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

It is amazing, to me, the limited amount of information that ever gets out to the public. It took forever for me to find out the provisions in the governor's statement requesting that NJT work with Amtrak. The Governor's stance on this, at least publicly, is something I am fully in agreement on.

I also go on record thanking my friends Jim Raleigh, and Joe Clift, and others that fought tirelessly to kill this poorly conceived and badly planned memorial to George Warrington's ego. I express hope that through efforts by NJT, Amtrak, PANYNJ, NYC, NJ-ARP, NARP, RRWG, the Lackawanna Coalition, and others, we manage to get a tunnel built, to Penn Station, and at least get said project started intelligently before Christie leaves office.

I had expressed publicly that I thought this was a lost cause. But efforts on the part of many have seemingly made sense, and it seems for the moment that the best possible of outcomes may prevail.

 

[AlanB]

It is amazing, to me, the limited amount of information that ever gets out to the public. It took forever for me to find out the provisions in the governor's statement requesting that NJT work with Amtrak. The Governor's stance on this, at least publicly, is something I am fully in agreement on.

I also go on record thanking my friends Jim Raleigh, and Joe Clift, and others that fought tirelessly to kill this poorly conceived and badly planned memorial to George Warrington's ego. I express hope that through efforts by NJT, Amtrak, PANYNJ, NYC, NJ-ARP, NARP, RRWG, the Lackawanna Coalition, and others, we manage to get a tunnel built, to Penn Station, and at least get said project started intelligently before Christie leaves office.

I had expressed publicly that I thought this was a lost cause. But efforts on the part of many have seemingly made sense, and it seems for the moment that the best possible of outcomes may prevail.

While I've no doubt that many toiled in their efforts to kill something that they didn't like, it's a pretty safe bet that all their efforts were in vain.

This tunnel was killed for one reason only. Governor Christie found a way to avoid having to raise the gas tax in NJ, something that is desperately needed. By dumping the monies set aside for this tunnel into the state's transportation fund, he staves off confronting the issue of raising the gas tax. That makes him look like a hero and furthers his political aspirations.

And rest assured he has political aspirations. If he didn't, then instead of running around the country campaigning for others, he'd have been home in the state working with his staff to make such an important decision like killing the tunnel as intelligently and educated as possible. Instead he was getting his face shown on national TV so that he can start his presidential bid and not be a total unknown to the world.

I do appreciate all the good work done by so many others in NJ, and while I was one that still ascribed to the idea that ARC as planned was better than nothing which is what we now have and most likely will have for many more years now, again this wasn't cancelled because of their hard work.

 

[jis]

ARC was killed because the managers of the project were caught in a half lie by a Governor whose agenda fit the situation. No doubt about that. The concerned advocates were able to use that alignment of planets to further their agenda, there is no doubt about that either. Indeed in an earlier post on this board I had observed that "a curious coalition of budget hawks and rail transit advocates will succeed in killing this project" or something to that effect.

For over a decade now the advocates that GML mentions, have diligently attended every NJT Board and ARC RCLC meetings and entered testimony with a consistent position. If someone wishes to truly believe that a bureaucracy can ignore public testimony forever and do whatever it likes, then surely our democracy is in a very dire straits. These advocates are no random people off the streets either. One is a retired Chief of traffic planning at LIRR. Another is a Transportation consultant who has variously worked for NJTransit, London Underground and various other premier transit agencies around the world specializing in Project Planning and Execution. And a third one is credited with having been the lead influence that finally killed the Westway and transferred the funding towards transit.

It should also be noted that none of them have claimed credit or gloated over this event either. They genuinely believe that it was a travesty to build a project based on a Scoping Document of which two primary goals, that of getting NJ commuters to the East Side, and of providing additional capacity for Amtrak, was completely ignored in a mid-night smoke-filled room maneuver while hiding away and stonewalling access to the master document that was used to justify that change. This is no way to run an outfit that is going to spend over $10 billion dollars of our money. Sorry if we disagree on that.

In any case there was this long record for the new Commissioner and his boss to see. Whether or how they used it, one would never know. Of course if it pleases someone to believe that the advocates had no effect and it was just the evil Governor, that is fine too. But the right thing happened, and that is what matters in the opinion of this observer. And since that is what I believe, I also believe that it is time to start on advocating for building the right tunnel with the right connectivity.

BTW, this has been a windfall of sorts for Amtrak since they are now back in the game due to the efforts of these advocates. If the NJT tunnels had been built, Amtrak's tunnel to Penn Station would have been just a dream for the next many many years, since there is no way that the nation would have coughed up another $10 billion for another pair of tunnels for a long time to come.

But OTOH, notwithstanding whatever his immediate imperatives are, it is also clear that anything that he is saying about continuing any work whatsoever on the tunnel at all is because of the tireless efforts of the few rail advocates in NJ who ironically in the past have been blamed by many who supported this tunnel unconditionally, as ones that had never seen a rail project that they did not like.

If you wish to get some idea of what kind of situation a state can place itself in under crushing debt from a single project, spend some time studying the Big Dig and its finances, and see what part of Massachusetts transport budget goes into paying off the debt, while the infrastructure rots away. Incidentally, thanks to the financial viz previous Governor, NJ's TTF starting next year will already be consumed in its entirety paying debt service with nothing to spend on any new project, unless the present Governor comes up with some way to replenish it. So the fact that the NJ component of the ARC project will likely replenish the TTF is not a bad thing. Afterall without money in TTF there will be no NJT Capital Projects of any sort, rail or otherwise. Indeed this might actually move the Portal South replacement along faster since the broke TTF is supposed to cover the NJ contribution to that project.

As for the ARC project, because of less than forthright presentation of the cost figures by the ARC managers and poor cost controls ARC was slowly but surely headed in that direction, with the USDOT estimate of a 50/50 chance that it would be completed for some figure over $10 Billion. The lowball figure of 8.7 that was bandied about, finally everyone agreed was a mythical figure and no one, including NJT believed was realistic. It was necessary to get past the first hurdle of utility for cost test in the Federal New Start Grant process. ARC had already run out of most of the contingencies (of over $1.1 Billion) in their contract budget allocations, that was set aside in the budget even before the first inch of tunnel had been dug. So real contingency was something that the State of NJ would have had to cover, as and when it arose, and USDOT's 90% confidence estimate for the cost was indeed north of 12 billion.

Now I might not agree with almost anything else that Christie does. But under these circumstances, as an NJ taxpayer, I am convinced that the right thing to do was to kill this project off and dismantle the bureaucracy that put together this monstrosity and start over again. As many post from me previously would easily establish, I was a relatively strong supporter of this project for a long time, and participated diligently in each RCLC for the last decade or so. With great deal of angst and dismay I watched at close range the way the bureaucracy ran amok, and the previous Governor pandered inexcusably to that bureaucracy. Notice that the previous Governor also did not raise the gas tax when his party was in full control of the NJ legislative bodies. He instead hocked the state out to further in the future by issuing more bonds to pay off previous bonds. So while it is easy to take a simplistic view about evil Christie, it really is not that simple in reality.

There are many villains in the plot. But at present our focus should be to the future, learn the lessons from this fiasco and try to ensure that it is not repeated and an actually useful tunnel that is usable to the best effect by NJ commuters as well as HSR travelers of the NEC is built as soon as possible. That is my firm hope and dream, and the same advocates that worked hard to kill this tunnel believe in that AFAIK, and are again working tirelessly towards that.

Incidentally, another bit of info that most are unaware of is that a group of NJ advocates did meet La Hood late last year to raise the issue of budget overruns, and raised the question of what FTA was going to do about it when it happens. Again, whether La Hood did anything with that bit of info, one will never know. Remember that Christie was going on happily with the project until La Hood sent a letter to him asking him to sign off on a commitment that NJ will cover all cost overruns and will not ask the Feds for any more money, before an FFGA for the USDOT New Start Grant could be signed. I would also note that this is no different from what FTA did with 2nd Ave. and ESA, which has placed NY State in an unenviable position of having to cover all cost overruns which seem to be borderline out of control, and will delay both projects at least by several years and by as much as a decade possibly. Indeed there is a significant chance of 2nd Ave simply getting mothballed again if the NY economy does not improve enough to increase tax receipts significantly from current levels.

 

[jis]

As I have said before there will be interesting twists and turns. Here is one:

The railroad issued a statement on Thursday night saying its primary interest is advancing high-speed rail service along the Northeast Corridor. The statement concluded by saying any potential joint rail project would require NJ Transit's commitment to "fully fund all costs associated with creating additional commuter train capacity."

Amtrak has no interest in NJ Transit tunnel

The jockeying for position begins.

As I said, Amtrak is back in the game, at least until a further rightward swing takes place in Washington DC.

 

[AlanB]

Sorry, Jishnu, but I didn't notice the Gov making any mention of the other failings of the project when he cancelled things. The only reason given was the cost overruns. He could have made his case much stronger by bringing all aspects of this into the picture; he didn't.

Is it possible that some of the experts pushed hard on the Gov's assistants? Certainly, I must agree that is a possibility and that they in turn pushed the Gov harder. But I remain firmly convinced that this was political and nothing else. If there was some way that Mr. Christie could have come out smelling like a rose by keeping the project going, it would still be going despite everything else.

And it's not a matter of ignoring public testimony, most of the public is simply unaware of that testimony. Only rail advocates are really aware of the testimony, and this one living just across the river wasn't even fully aware of some of what you say. I knew that there was dissent, but not to the levels you express and not from experts like you've listed. Granted I no longer vote in NJ, but if someone like me who follows rail closely wasn't fully aware of this, you can bet your average NJ taxpayer hasn't a clue.

I do agree with you that Mr. Corzine should have and could have raised the gas tax too. Just like Mr. Christie, he kicked the can further down the road hoping that it will be someone else's problem and that they'll get the blame for it.

 

[jis]

Sorry, Jishnu, but I didn't notice the Gov making any mention of the other failings of the project when he cancelled things. The only reason given was the cost overruns. He could have made his case much stronger by bringing all aspects of this into the picture; he didn't.

I have no doubt in my mind that he by himself had no desire to make his case stronger in the way that you and I would like. It is some of the people that work for him however, who do have a bit of intellectual honesty about such things AFAICT. Pardon my cynicism is showing.

Is it possible that some of the experts pushed hard on the Gov's assistants? Certainly, I must agree that is a possibility and that they in turn pushed the Gov harder. But I remain firmly convinced that this was political and nothing else. If there was some way that Mr. Christie could have come out smelling like a rose by keeping the project going, it would still be going despite everything else.

I don't disagree that from the Governor's personal perspective it is mostly political and partly that his wife did not want to arrive in a deep station a few blocks from Penn Station I am told.

In that sense the advocates just provided him ammunition to further his own political objectives. If he was not hell bent on making a political point I am sure the advocates could have equally been ignored by him as they were by Corzine, on both ARC and MOM, because his political cronies wanted things the way they were, i.e. no MOM and ARC full steam ahead, never mind how much it costs and how useless the final thing becomes.

And it's not a matter of ignoring public testimony, most of the public is simply unaware of that testimony. Only rail advocates are really aware of the testimony, and this one living just across the river wasn't even fully aware of some of what you say. I knew that there was dissent, but not to the levels you express and not from experts like you've listed. Granted I no longer vote in NJ, but if someone like me who follows rail closely wasn't fully aware of this, you can bet your average NJ taxpayer hasn't a clue.

It is only after the Correspondent (not Reporter) Paul Mulshine started writing a series of articles on ARC that the public actually started seeing a glimpse of the other side of the story. The Democratic machine in NJ had done an excellent job of steam rolling any opposite view completely out of site on this matter. Please note that I am a registered Democrat and I am truly ashamed of the behavior of the Democratic Party in NJ on this matter. Sometimes it felt more like Kremlin than Trenton.

The news media in New Jersey has not exactly come out looking too good either. For example the premier NJ newspaper reported profusely on the one single anti-cancellation testimony at the NJT Board meeting and initially completely ignored the 5 pro-cancellation testimony, until someone gently asked the reporter whether he was a reporter or an op-ed column writer. Such is the state of our supposedly balanced and impartial press which is supposed to report the news in an unbiased way.

I do agree with you that Mr. Corzine should have and could have raised the gas tax too. Just like Mr. Christie, he kicked the can further down the road hoping that it will be someone else's problem and that they'll get the blame for it.

Actually Christie is doing less of kicking the can down the road than Corzine. He is just crumpling the can in place instead. Corzine was doing exactly what multiple governments in Massachusetts did in course of the Big Dig. Christie is ostensibly saying we will stop investing until we have money to invest, while studiously avoiding the most obvious way of getting the necessary money to invest in infrastructure - that just like Corzine; which in the long run is not a wise thing to do. A middle road has to be found involving some cutback in spending and some source of additional funds or some way of retiring some of the crushing debt.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That is my firm hope and dream, and the same advocates that worked hard to kill this tunnel believe in that AFAIK, and are again working tirelessly towards that.

I can't speak for all of the advocates in New Jersey, of course, but those in my neck of the woods are gearing up to work just as tirelessly attempting to restart this project, Penn Station First (and only!) as they worked attempting to kill the Deep Cavern.

The facts of the matter are, Alan,

1) On the surface, and on all levels I can think of, this project seemed, at best, ill-conceived.

2) NJT worked diligently to come up with excuses not to furnish the information that would demonstrate the above to be wrong.

3) The mechanisms for preparing designs, winning bids, turning in bids, and so on ad infinitum seemed to primarily be designed to funnel money into the hands of the various construction companies and engineering firms working on the project.

4) I have no doubt that at the end of the day, Chris Christie killed the ARC project for the furtherance of his political career. However, I believe it was thanks to the tireless efforts of the rail advocates that the situation progressed to a point where Christie decided it was in his best interest to kill it.

If certain people hadn't worked up Mulshine, if Mulshine hadn't worked up the public, if public sentiment hadn't become such that killing it seemed advantageous, I have no doubt the project would still be going.

I have constantly hounded members in my coalition that the key to a politicians ear isn't convincing him what you are preposing is best for his constituents. It is convincing him that what you are preposing is best for him. I know that some members of my group took that to heart, and it probably helped us. It wasn't what one person did, or one groups efforts, or one event. It was the cumulative efforts of many people, and many things, working for many reasons.

And what we did wasn't directly convincing Christie to kill the tunnel project. It was in slowly creating a situation that, given Christie's purposes, plans, and stratagem, killing the tunnel came to be an imperative for him.

For once, that situation was created by unloading a heck of a lot of truth.

 

[jis]

From Asbury Park Press:

Amtrak backs away from shared tunnel

By LARRY HIGGS • STAFF WRITER • November 12, 2010

Amtrak officials have pulled the plug on talks about a shared tunnel project with NJ Transit, using engineering and design work already done.

...

Using NJ Transit's engineering for a joint tunnel was ruled out because the ARC project designs aren't conducive for intercity train travel, said Clifford Cole, Amtrak spokesman. That design had tracks ending in a dead-end station under 34th Street.

...

Amtrak officials said in a release they "remain open to exploring ways to expand trans-Hudson passenger rail capacity with NJ Transit, but Amtrak's primary interest is in advancing Northeast Corridor high-speed rail service."

....

Cost sharing by NJ Transit appears to be a concern for Amtrak officials.

"Such a collaboration with NJT would require their commitment to fully fund all costs associated with creating additional commuter train capacity," Amtrak officials said.

You can read the whole article here.

I can sympathize with Amtrak's position. Afterall there is zero reason for Amtrak to have to stick to the idiotic 2% grade limitation based on NJ Transit's arbitrary determination that their poor choice of equipment cannot handle start from dead stop on any greater grade, never mind that they do so all the time on the greater than 2.5% grade on the eastbound hole at Union.

This 2% argument was rolled out by NJT to justify removing the connection to the old Penn Station.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

I can sympathize with Amtrak's position. Afterall there is zero reason for Amtrak to have to stick to the idiotic 2% grade limitation based on NJ Transit's arbitrary determination that their poor choice of equipment cannot handle start from dead stop on any greater grade, never mind that they do so all the time on the greater than 2.5% grade on the eastbound hole at Union.

This 2% argument was rolled out by NJT to justify removing the connection to the old Penn Station.

actually a 2% grade is about maximum in conventional standard railroading, even for Amtrak.

 

[jis]

I can sympathize with Amtrak's position. Afterall there is zero reason for Amtrak to have to stick to the idiotic 2% grade limitation based on NJ Transit's arbitrary determination that their poor choice of equipment cannot handle start from dead stop on any greater grade, never mind that they do so all the time on the greater than 2.5% grade on the eastbound hole at Union.

This 2% argument was rolled out by NJT to justify removing the connection to the old Penn Station.

actually a 2% grade is about maximum in conventional standard railroading, even for Amtrak.

True, but if they can agree to greater than 2% for Portal south, what makes the decision making criteria different for the tunnel, which is in some ways a less hostile environment?

Anyhow Amtrak will have to figure out, or has already some idea on how they will connect their tunnel to their Penn Station I would imagine, though wonders never cease

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I am in shock. NJ Transit had the gall to pander to the governor's request by attempting to foist the deep cavern on Amtrak?

The only wild card here is whether Lautenberg can manage to force Amtrak to take the project on. Lautenberg's stance on this terminal has made me wonder whether he is still compos mentis.

Why has he stuck by this project so firmly? Does he want a tomb to compliment his mausoleum?

 

[AlanB]

Why has he stuck by this project so firmly? Does he want a tomb to compliment his mausoleum?

No.

He's been in politics long enough to know that it will take many, many years of hard work to ever get this close to building any tunnel under the river again. Which is one of the reasons that I still supported the plan, even after they killed the connection to NYP.

I'll be lucky if I ever get to ride a train through a new tunnel under the North River now; and I'm only 50 as of next month. But my guess is that it will be at least 2020 before any shovels ever go back into the ground for any new rail tunnels under the Hudson.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Alan, the fact of the matter is, Lautenberg and others could have shot down each of the stupid aspects of this project at the times they occured- such as the loss of the Penn Station connection. They didn't. If a reason that doesn't involve corruption exists, I'd like to know it.

 

[jis]

Now this plan has always made a lot of sense to me.....

Take Number 7 to Secaucus

On the side a few of us from NJ-ARP had been working on this proposal. Glad to see Bloomberg and NY State take this one on. It considerably reduces the need for extremely expensive construction in and around Penn Station, and actually takes NJ riders where they want to go - Grand Central and vicinity, with a single change to subway at Secaucus. Reduces the need for bringing any additional trains into Manhattan from NJ for the immediate future. Does require some construction at Secaucus to enable turning around trains there. So the connection from Secaucus to a small storage yard around the old Boonton line would be needed.But that is already part of the original Secaucus design. One has to build the additional piece.

Let's see what Christie says about that.

Eventually this might actually reduce the need for tunnels into Penn station to a single additional tube too.

 

[AlanB]

Now this plan has always made a lot of sense to me.....

Take Number 7 to Secaucus

On the side a few of us from NJ-ARP had been working on this proposal. Glad to see Bloomberg and NY State take this one on. It considerably reduces the need for extremely expensive construction in and around Penn Station, and actually takes NJ riders where they want to go - Grand Central and vicinity, with a single change to subway at Secaucus. Reduces the need for bringing any additional trains into Manhattan from NJ for the immediate future. Does require some construction at Secaucus to enable turning around trains there. So the connection from Secaucus to a small storage yard around the old Boonton line would be needed.But that is already part of the original Secaucus design. One has to build the additional piece.

Well it would make the monument that NJT built in the Meadowlands far more important and useful. And for the record, I've never been opposed to the idea of the transfer station, just the massive and largely underutilized facility that got built.

Let's see what Christie says about that.

If it requires any of the money that he plans to take from ARC to put into the roads and avoid the needed gas tax increase, then the answer will be no.

On a separate note, I do have to wonder how the Port Authority would view this project. In some sense this is a more direct threat to their PATH trains, than ARC would have been.

Finally of course, care will have to be taken so as to not interfere with yet another new tunnel(s) under the river and to NYP. This idea reduces the need and urgency for commuter train access to NY, but doesn't change the fact that Amtrak needs to get more trains into NY.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The two sides are now wrangling over Mr. LaHood’s demand that New Jersey repay $271 million the federal government has spent on the project. City officials had initially hoped that they could recapture the $3 billion pledged by the federal government, but that no longer seems possible, and the project will most likely have to compete with others around the country for the money.

I thought the release of the federal funds were on the written stipulation that they be used exclusively for rail transportation. But this New York Times article seems to be claiming that it was strictly a matter of LaHood's decision and that his decision alone removed the possibility of spending the three billion federal dollars on roads.

 

[AlanB]

The two sides are now wrangling over Mr. LaHood’s demand that New Jersey repay $271 million the federal government has spent on the project. City officials had initially hoped that they could recapture the $3 billion pledged by the federal government, but that no longer seems possible, and the project will most likely have to compete with others around the country for the money.

I thought the release of the federal funds were on the written stipulation that they be used exclusively for rail transportation. But this New York Times article seems to be claiming that it was strictly a matter of LaHood's decision and that his decision alone removed the possibility of spending the three billion federal dollars on roads.

I'm not sure where you see, or are reading into things, that it was Mr. LaHood's call on moving that money to roads. All Federal transportation funding always comes with conditions on its use. In some cases you can indeed apply to switch the funding to other projects, but usually that only happens with very small grants. Transit activists would be up in arms to see $3 Billion originally marked for transit end up in the roads. Especially with so many other transit projects on the wish list awaiting funding.

Besides, NJ's problem with the roads remains its lower than the national average gas tax. I'm not opposed to Federal help funding roads & highways, but helping out NJ when the current and past administrations refuse to bring NJ's gas tax in line with the rest of the country is wrong. Especially when it hurts transit projects elsewhere.

The Stimulus monies are more locked in and would require an act of Congress with the consent of the President to change the money from rail to roads, like Wisconsin wants to do. The NJ project however was not funded via Stimulus monies. AFAIK that funding was coming out of the Mass Transit Fund.