"Chipotle-style quick-service station" dining car?

[crescent-zephyr]

AVoice... You should ride the Piedmont trains sometime. Vending machines aren't that bad! (For short haul).

 

[bretton88]

A Chipotle-style food service would be GREAT as a replacement for the snack bar in lounge cars or on sections of LD trains that don't have a full-service diner (examples: EB and LSL splits). Hopefully they wouldn't make it self-serve to save $$$. You kinda oughta have skilled staff persons accustomed to working on a wobbly train dishing up the food if you want to avoid a messy car and food landing on passengers instead of plates.

But as a replacement for real dining car service ... not so much.

I think a Panera style quick serve could replace the diner. As long as you have fresh ingredients, it won't make people miss the diner. What I envision would be open diner car and lounge seating. You'd have 2 prep cooks and 2 service people up top. You can then use vending machines to replace the cafe car (Hello automat cars). Aramark (the current catering company) has commissaries in lots of cities, so Amtrak could restock en route to keep the food fresh. I feel like this would improve food quality and save Amtrak costs. Am I missing something?

Regardless of what form any "outside the box" thinking on onboard food service may take, absolutely positively NO vending machines. Staff the lounge; It's not just about the bad reputation of the 'automat' car, either. While Amtrak may not offer a true luxury level experience (probably not the type of dining most passengers are interested in anyway), it is important the service be far superior to what you would find at an interstate rest area. The primary competition to the long distance train is the automobile, where dining isn't from vending machines; It's from the McDonald's drive-thru, at least.

Considering what the cafes sell now, a vending machine isn't any worse. Or in the case of NC, shows they might even be better. On long distance trains, If you want better, that's what the quick serve diner is for. Keep in mind, Amtrak is not meant to be a luxury service (but comfortable, yes).

 

[ScouseAndy]

By replacing the cafe car attendant with vending machines on LD trains not only would Amtrak be saving labour costs but also free up an additional roomette for revenue paying customers.

Of course the union would fight this but it's becoming the norm in Europe slowly - French sleeper trains have done this for years and the Italian private high speed rail company does this for example

 

[jis]

Or maybe this person so released could be used to better serve in the Diner, if the train has one. Of course if it is just a train with no Sleepers, then the point about Sleeper compartment is moot.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

By replacing the cafe car attendant with vending machines on LD trains not only would Amtrak be saving labour costs but also free up an additional roomette for revenue paying customers.Of course the union would fight this but it's becoming the norm in Europe slowly - French sleeper trains have done this for years and the Italian private high speed rail company does this for example

France is roughly the size of Texas. Our trains travel much slower and further than they do in Western Europe. A vending machine makes little sense in that context. Except perhaps as a midnight snack kind of a thing. Where I work we've had vending machines with drinks and snacks and sandwiches and frozen dinners and ice creams and all sorts of things, but the honest truth is that they all suck compared to even a basic restaurant. Plus sometimes they lose power and don't even warn you that your sandwich has wilted or that your ice cream bar has melted and then refrozen again. It's disgusting.

 

[MARC Rider]

Have any of these bright consultants ever actually patronized a Chipotle? While one can get a nice burrito there, the concept is pretty labor intensive., and even then, sometimes long lines form. And then you're stuck behind someone who holds things up deciding whether she wants pinto beans or black beans or brown rice or jasmine rice. And then the line gets jammed again because they run out of something and one of the servers has to stop serving and run over to fill the tray with whatever ran out. And despite the "customization," which slows down the line, the offerings are pretty limited: Burrito, taco, or bowl/salad. This concept cannot give you the kind of variety desirable for a 2 or 3 day train trip. Better they should serve decent quality airline-style meals.

As for the lounge car, you'd better have an attendant on duty as much as possible because among the most profitable items in the lounge car lineup are various, ahem, "adult beverages." I don't know if it's legal anywhere in the US to serve booze from vending machines, though I did see beer vending machines on every corner during a trip to Japan in the late 1970s. The attendant is also helpful in that if someone overindulges and begins to act inappropriately, said attendant can notify conductor in a timely manner.

My observation of the Amtrak food service on long-distance trains is that they're leaving a lot of money on the table with limited service hours. And even during those service hours, it seems like the system is not set up to efficiently serve as many people as possible. I've said it before, but I remember the days (circa 1975) when you could enter the diner after the train left Trenton and be served and eat your meal, and pay up before the train got to Newark (NJ). And that was a Penn Central legacy operation, not exactly the gold standard for exquisite passenger service. By the way, they only had three things on the menu: fish ($2) chicken ($3) and steak ($8), all prix fixe meals, with beverages extra. (That's $9, $14, and $36, respectively in today's money.)

I also remember the days (circa 2012) when I was forced to ride the Silver Star in coach and wasn't able to access the dining car for dinner because of their stupid systems of reservations and absence of personnel in the coaches to take those reservations. And I wasn't the only one. One gentleman was so distressed at not being able to pay good money for Amchow for his family that he had words with the conductor, which resulted in an unscheduled stop somewhere in Southside Virginia, a stop that involved flashing red and blue police car lights. I mean, how can Amtrak lose money on dining car service when potential patrons are willing to risk arrest if they are denied said service?

I suspect the problem is largely an issue of bad management of resources, plus accounting games where a disproportionate share of overhead is being dumped on the food service budget. Of course, for a number of the powerful players involved in this, it's far more to their liking to blame lazy unionized workers and retirees who perversely prefer to take outmoded long-distance trains rather than driving or flying, like real Americans.

 

[PVD]

D/A, I am in agreement with you, with the thought that a small set of machines Hot drink, cold drink, and snack might be reasonable on the trains that have no food service like the Keystones or the Empire Service trains that terminate in Albany. Where to put them in the split club cars is a question, those are in use on ES trains, but they swap with the ones that go further and use the counter so it is a legit issue.

 

[Bob Dylan]

MARC Rider Wins the thread!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Have any of these bright consultants ever actually patronized a Chipotle? While one can get a nice burrito there, the concept is pretty labor intensive., and even then, sometimes long lines form. And then you're stuck behind someone who holds things up deciding whether she wants pinto beans or black beans or brown rice or jasmine rice. And then the line gets jammed again because they run out of something and one of the servers has to stop serving and run over to fill the tray with whatever ran out. And despite the "customization," which slows down the line, the offerings are pretty limited: Burrito, taco, or bowl/salad. This concept cannot give you the kind of variety desirable for a 2 or 3 day train trip. Better they should serve decent quality airline-style meals.

These are all reasonable points. Chipotle does indeed have an extremely limited menu. You can get around the line but purchasing on the web or through your phone. But being stuck with a bowl or a burrito or a taco made of roughly the same ingredients day after day would get awfully old very quick. Maybe have a Waffle House breakfast operation, a Chipotle lunch, and a Panera dinner service? I dunno, just throwing out ideas.

One gentleman was so distressed at not being able to pay good money for Amchow that he had words with the conductor, which resulted in an unscheduled stop somewhere in Southside Virginia, a stop that involved flashing red and blue police car lights. I mean, how can Amtrak lose money on dining car service when potential patrons are willing to risk arrest if they are denied said service? I suspect the problem is an issue of bad management of resources, plus accounting games where a disproportionate share of overhead is being dumped on the food service budget. Of course, for a number of the powerful players involved in this, it's far more to their liking to blame lazy unionized workers and retirees who perversely prefer to take outmoded long-distance trains rather than driving or flying, like real Americans.

If I were in charge on the union I'd be doing my best to get the word out that the union is ready and willing to look at any number of suggestions and solutions to improve F&B service and budgeting. Sitting on the sidelines is a sure way to let someone else write the narrative for you. Better to improve what you have now rather than wait until it's so bad there's nobody left to support you.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

And there is the bigger problem. At Amtrak, when a customer gets mad for a reasonable complaint (being denied an advertised service on a train, like dinner) rather than trying to please the customer, they arrest him and throw him off the train. Do any of us doubt that story? Nope.

Until Amtrak fixes their customer service culture it doesn't matter how good the food is.

 

[A Voice]

D/A, I am in agreement with you, with the thought that a small set of machines Hot drink, cold drink, and snack might be reasonable on the trains that have no food service like the Keystones or the Empire Service trains that terminate in Albany. Where to put them in the split club cars is a question, those are in use on ES trains, but they swap with the ones that go further and use the counter so it is a legit issue.

I would largely agree with this. For trains on the move for only several hours or so, and otherwise have no food service (Piedmont trains, Keystones, etc.) vending machines could be appropriate and a welcome improvement. But for all trains which have at least a cafe counter, it should be staffed (and yes, with extended operating hours). You need someone to keep an eye on the car, keep things clean and organized, and serve a better quality and more varied menu than you can get from a machine. That car isn't going to tend itself for a train journey of 24 to 48 hours. I am frankly amazed at the number of posters would would find vending machines an acceptable substitute for the current lounge car.

I know it isn't clear from the original source, but I'm still thinking the Chipotle example refers more to a service model than actual style of menu (ie., "plate" meals, sandwiches, or similar fare but served like Chipotle does things, as opposed to table service), and that other aspects of the traditional dining car would necessarily remain (still have limited space and seating, thus you will continue sharing tables).

 

[MARC Rider]

These are all reasonable points. Chipotle does indeed have an extremely limited menu. You can get around the line but purchasing on the web or through your phone. But being stuck with a bowl or a burrito or a taco made of roughly the same ingredients day after day would get awfully old very quick. Maybe have a Waffle House breakfast operation, a Chipotle lunch, and a Panera dinner service? I dunno, just throwing out ideas.

If I were in charge on the union I'd be doing my best to get the word out that the union is ready and willing to look at any number of suggestions and solutions to improve F&B service and budgeting. Sitting on the sidelines is a sure way to let someone else write the narrative for you. Better to improve what you have now rather than wait until it's so bad there's nobody left to support you.

I'm not sure that any of these land-based operations are any more labor efficient than the traditional dining car model. Fast casual involves people standing in line to give their orders and then standing around waiting for pick-up. This will not work well in the limited confines of a passenger rail car rocking along at 79 mph. As far as the food quality, that's a matter of sourcing better quality meals, like they used to do back in the dim past of, say, 2013. Paying for it is a matter of better management, a close look at overhead allocation, and, yes, possibly some small price increases. I just reviewed a recent Silver Meteor menu. The prices are not all that high, considering it's a captive audience situation, $15 (for the vegetarian light meal) to $25 (for the steak) for a prix fixe meal. By the way, you want a fresh, cooked to order prix fixe meal in a land-based restaurant? Prepare to pay at least $40.

Regarding what the union should be doing, I am in agreement with you 100%.

 

[keelhauled]

And there is the bigger problem. At Amtrak, when a customer gets mad for a reasonable complaint (being denied an advertised service on a train, like dinner) rather than trying to please the customer, they arrest him and throw him off the train. Do any of us doubt that story? Nope.

Until Amtrak fixes their customer service culture it doesn't matter how good the food is.

I very much doubt that "hello, police, this is Amtrak and we have a disruptive passenger" immediately followed "I'm sorry, we're unable to serve you in the diner tonight." In fact I find that condemning the entirety of Amtrak's on board crews based on one incomplete anecdote is downright absurd.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I'm not basing it on one incomplete anecdote. I'm basing it on personally witnessing Amtrak employees escalating a small complaint into a bigger problem. I've seen this several times over the years.

 

[MARC Rider]

And there is the bigger problem. At Amtrak, when a customer gets mad for a reasonable complaint (being denied an advertised service on a train, like dinner) rather than trying to please the customer, they arrest him and throw him off the train. Do any of us doubt that story? Nope.

Until Amtrak fixes their customer service culture it doesn't matter how good the food is.

I very much doubt that "hello, police, this is Amtrak and we have a disruptive passenger" immediately followed "I'm sorry, we're unable to serve you in the diner tonight." In fact I find that condemning the entirety of Amtrak's on board crews based on one incomplete anecdote is downright absurd.

I guess I should provide a more complete story. I didn't hear the words that were exchanged, but the passenger in question was not raising his voice and didn't seem like the kind of person who would cause trouble. And he was traveling with his wife and kids. And, in truth, I don't think they were actually arrested, as I overheard one of his kids say something to another kid sitting near me that they were going to be put on the "next train," which was presumably the Silver Meteor, which follows the Star by about 3 or 4 hours. But we were delayed for a considerable time sitting in the middle of nowhere, and there was a police car involved. And maybe the man was arrested even if they let his family continue on. Or maybe they just gave him a ticket. I hope the cops took them to a Denny's or a Sonic or something and let them get something to eat while they were waiting for the Meteor.

The conductor, who came on duty in Washington, had a bit of a bad attitude, and announcements about dinner reservations were not heard in our car because of a malfunctioning PA system. The train was also packed full (which was the reason why I wasn't able to get a roomette), but whatever excuses, it was not well managed, and Amtrak managed to not sell a lot of dinners on a full train, which would have done a lot for its food and beverage bottom line.

 

[keelhauled]

I'm not basing it on one incomplete anecdote. I'm basing it on personally witnessing Amtrak employees escalating a small complaint into a bigger problem. I've seen this several times over the years.

How many times is "several?" How many years is "the years?" How do these numbers compare to the number of employees Amtrak has? How many employee-customer interactions do you suppose happen each day? And how many of those end up with people getting thrown off the train? I have witnessed many Amtrak employees being friendly and helpful, does that make your anecdotes bunk?

It's useless to make sweeping generalizations without similarly broad data. Presumably Amtrak keeps records of people who contact customer service and matches that to crews and trains and whatnot, and has some idea of the rate of customer complaints. But swapping stories of a few interactions doesn't even rate being considered statistical noise when millions of such events happen annually. Particularly considering peoples' tendency to remember the negatives much more than the positives.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I'm not sure why you are asking me those questions? Do you beleive Amtrak provides a consistently good customer service experience? Yes or no?

I never said Amtrak doesn't have good employees. They have great ones! But the inconsistency is the problem.