Cardinal discussion

[jis]

"there may be something going on with your App/Browser. Are you sure you are not looking for it on a day that it does not run?" Were you asking me? Concerning two years ago? (Your post was right after mine.) I mentioned that I knew which days the Cardinal runs. I've ridden it a few times, and I was living in Alexandria, Va., and before the pandemic I sometimes timed my walks in the park to see it go by. I was generally using Microsoft Edge, and I reserved and made trips to New York, Lancaster, and Harrisburg. Maybe Edge had a hidden default to block information about the Cardinal, or more likely CSX hacked my computer and installed Cardinal-blocking software. ;-)

Glad you have got it all under control.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Plug in CVS (Charlottesville) as your starting point south and see what comes up. Many people get off there. Amtrak res also has a problem many people including myself have found, if you search a city it shows all kinds of places that aren't the station. They've improved it, so non-stations are more clearly marked, but still the first result for "New York" on the website is NYF, New York State Fair. The phone app is better, with NYP first and no locations other than stations.

Another funny thing about the Cardinal is sometimes you can take the earlier Northeast regional to CVS, go to lunch (with your luggage), then get on the Cardinal, at about the same cost or less. The NER's are more subsidized I think.

 

[glensfallsse]

It is showing up fine when I look for it. So there may be something going on with your App/Browser. Are you sure you are not looking for it on a day that it does not run? Afterall it runs just three days a week.

Thanks to all for the help. I figured out what I was missing (and I figured it was me). The Cardinals shows up as the last option, but you have to click to a second page of results to see it. It didn't occur to me that Chicago to NYP, which has only three through options per day, would run more than one page. Seems odd the system would give you all these different options -- including some kooky ones, like switching trains in Albany -- before it gives you the Cardinal.

 

[PVD]

not sure, but it might be duration, Cardinal takes a long time.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Another funny thing about the Cardinal is sometimes you can take the earlier Northeast regional to CVS, go to lunch (with your luggage), then get on the Cardinal, at about the same cost or less. The NER's are more subsidized I think.

I have to correct myself, the NER's are said to run at a profit. In any case, the coach fares seem lower than on the LD's on the same route. Even so, the Cardinal is not very expensive booked ahead. The slow sections are not just west of CVS, there's an impressively pokey section just northeast of CVS, which only the Cardinal uses, while the Crescent and NER go on better rail, to Culpeper northward. It's necessary due to an incomplete junction between the Norfolk Southern N-S tracks and the CSX/BB E-W tracks at CVS.

 

[George Harris]

The slow sections are not just west of CVS, there's an impressively pokey section just northeast of CVS, which only the Cardinal uses, while the Crescent and NER go on better rail, to Culpeper northward. It's necessary due to an incomplete junction between the Norfolk Southern N-S tracks and the CSX/BB E-W tracks at CVS.

If you look at the map of the railroad lines between Orange and Charlottesville, it looks like all were originally intended to go somewhere other than the direction of their current main traffic flows. The original Southern Railroad main north of Orange VA was the Alexandria and Orange, which did exactly that. The current Buckingham Branch, ex C&O main used by the Cardinal is essentially a straight extension of that line going south to Gordonsville, and then apparently intending to go somewhere south from there, but it became incorporated into the Richmond direction of the C&O passenger line between Richmond and Charlottesville. At Gordonsville, to go west toward Charlottesville, the current line makes a hard right turn carrying on to Charlottesville, to its stop just short of the diamond with the ex Southern double track main. Going back to Orange: It looks like the Southern took off from the original A&O line in Orange with a hard right turn to take a more direct route to Charlottesville, and from there, I have no idea of their original target, it ultimately became the Southern Railroad mainline to Atlanta. The Alexandria and Orange became part of the Southern Railway system with C&O having traffic rights over the Southern between Orange and Alexandria, hence the Cardinal is running on the historical route of the C&O's Geoge Washington. Whether these traffic rights were extinguished after the merger of C&O/B&O into SCL, I don't know.

It looks like it could be possible to put a wye track in the northwest quadrant between the west side of the Southern line and the north side of the C&O line with a platform adjacent to it for the Cardinal. However, this would mean a pedestrian crossing of the Southern Railroad main tracks.

 

[George Harris]

To add one more thing to the Cardinal through Charlottesville thoughts above: The following information comes from employee timetables from 2008, at which time these things were generally publicly available.
Route of the Cardinal Orange to the Southern Railway Crossing in Charlottesville:
31.3 miles, but about 12 of this is at 30 mph or less, and none over 60 mph.
Route of the Crescent Orange to the C&O (now Buckingham Branch) crossing in Charlottesville:
27.5 miles. Although the nominal maximum speed is 79 mph, for the most part speed is limited to the range of 50 to 65 mph due to curves.

 

[glensfallsse]

On the off chance this is interesting to someone, the Cardinal from Chicago to Indy tonight ran thusly: two engines (I think it’s two, I didn’t go all the way forward), baggage, some kind of Superliner (photo shows front 4 cars after disconnect), engine, two coaches, cafe, sleeper, bag-dorm (my home for the next 23 hours).

 

[Cal]

On the off chance this is interesting to someone, the Cardinal from Chicago to Indy tonight ran thusly: two engines (I think it’s two, I didn’t go all the way forward), baggage, some kind of Superliner (photo shows front 4 cars after disconnect), engine, two coaches, cafe, sleeper, bag-dorm (my home for the next 23 hours).

Yep. Cardinal gets some interesting consists thanks to equipment moves to/from Beech Grove.

 

[jis]

Cardinal might get one more stop in Ohio if this plan comes to fruition....

https://www.journal-news.com/news/o...ocation-is-tricky/JEDLJJYWMNG7BD2WGYSCQDM5C4/

 

[Eric S]

Interesting that Hamilton (not that far from Oxford) was dropped as a stop in the 2000s. There've been some rumbling about bringing it back as a stop.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Interesting that Hamilton (not that far from Oxford) was dropped as a stop in the 2000s. There've been some rumbling about bringing it back as a stop.

They surely won't bring back Hamilton if Oxford gets the go ahead. Oxford has all the momentum to get it done. As you point out, they are close, only 14 miles.

 

[dadonatrain]

I looked back and didn’t find many recent posts answering my questions so I’ll post mine.

What’s the typical consist on the Cardinal these days, as of May and June roughly? I’m considering a day trip in coach in June btwn Charleston WV and White Sulphur Springs. Right now the date I’m thinking of only has a couple seats left so I’d have no control at all where I get told to sit. And I wonder if there’s any sort of cafe car with windows on both sides where I could watch the world go by on both sides at once.

Also, if I end up buying almost the last available seat, how does Amtrak keep track en route what to tell some boarding in mid-route where the last empty seat might be? Not to mention, what do I do if I find where the conductor said the last seat is and someone has spread their stuff and themselves all over it?

 

[trimetbusfan]

I looked back and didn’t find many recent posts answering my questions so I’ll post mine.

What’s the typical consist on the Cardinal these days, as of May and June roughly? I’m considering a day trip in coach in June btwn Charleston WV and White Sulphur Springs. Right now the date I’m thinking of only has a couple seats left so I’d have no control at all where I get told to sit. And I wonder if there’s any sort of cafe car with windows on both sides where I could watch the world go by on both sides at once.

Also, if I end up buying almost the last available seat, how does Amtrak keep track en route what to tell some boarding in mid-route where the last empty seat might be? Not to mention, what do I do if I find where the conductor said the last seat is and someone has spread their stuff and themselves all over it?

Just because the website says ‘10 seats left’ does not mean that there are 10 seats left on the train. Rather, it means that there at 10 seats left at the current price (after that, will be a higher price).

The Cardinal has a few coaches, a cafe, and sleepers/dorm car. It does not have a dining car.

There is a small area in the cafe with windows on both sides. However, to sit there the crews usually require you to be eating food purchased by the cafe.

Don’t worry about being the ‘last seat.’ Often times people don’t show up anyways so you are never going to be in the last possible seat. There is also a coach attendant to keep track of the seats and make sure that people getting on have a seat.

 

[Trogdor]

When I see the consist, it’s typically two coaches, cafe, sleeper, bag dorm. Quite a small consist.

 

[Amtrak25]

I looked back and didn’t find many recent posts answering my questions so I’ll post mine.

What’s the typical consist on the Cardinal these days, as of May and June roughly? I’m considering a day trip in coach in June btwn Charleston WV and White Sulphur Springs. Right now the date I’m thinking of only has a couple seats left so I’d have no control at all where I get told to sit. And I wonder if there’s any sort of cafe car with windows on both sides where I could watch the world go by on both sides at once.

Also, if I end up buying almost the last available seat, how does Amtrak keep track en route what to tell some boarding in mid-route where the last empty seat might be? Not to mention, what do I do if I find where the conductor said the last seat is and someone has spread their stuff and themselves all over it?

5 cars:
Bag/Dorm/Sleeper
Sleeper
Am-2 Dinette
Am-2-Coach
Am-2-Coach.

If they spread their stuff, they have to unspread it or buy another ticket on the spot.

 

[igor]

Cardinal might get one more stop in Ohio if this plan comes to fruition....

The Oxford station has now broken ground.
Good news: it's also a bus terminal, will have waiting areas and restrooms, customer service and bike storage
Bad news: not projected to be a Cardinal stop until 2026.

 

[chadamfleetrailfan]

This would be a great help relieving some of the overload at Cincinnati! This is great news that Ohio is getting another active Amtrak station!

 

[PaTrainFan]

The Oxford station has now broken ground.
Good news: it's also a bus terminal, will have waiting areas and restrooms, customer service and bike storage
Bad news: not projected to be a Cardinal stop until 2026.

This is made possible in large part to my alma mater, Miami University. It is has always had a large contingent of students from greater Chicago, so I expect the Cardinal's ridership will be positively influenced by this stop.

 

[leccy]

I hear often that "capacity constraints" are stopping a daily Cardinal. Are there any particular places that are a constraint? I am assuming BB is one of them? Given that the gap used to be filled by the late lamented Hoosier State, would there be any possibility to run an overnight Chicago-Charleston WV to fill in the gap?

 

[west point]

IMO the capacity problems are available passenger cars. Just review the way Amtrak is moving around equipment. Also, the shortage of enough cars on many trains. The daily Cardinal will need just one equipment set but much less time for the present 2 sets to get PM.

 

[Amtrak25]

The only way to get a daily Cardinal, other than come up with likely $10 million more in operating subsidies, is to truncate it in Washington. They cannot relay and service it in Sunnyside overnight in less than 9 hours.

They refuse to come up with so much as a 3rd coach and a diner now, so forget it. Senator Manchin is leaving the Senate and Indiana couldn't care less .

They could easily extend the Capitol Ltd to NY without needing any more equipment.

 

[John Santos]

The only way to get a daily Cardinal, other than come up with likely $10 million more in operating subsidies, is to truncate it in Washington. They cannot relay and service it in Sunnyside overnight in less than 9 hours.

They refuse to come up with so much as a 3rd coach and a diner now, so forget it. Senator Manchin is leaving the Senate and Indiana couldn't care less .

They could easily extend the Capitol Ltd to NY without needing any more equipment.

Cap is Superliner. Can't be extended to NY unless converted to Viewliner, which requires much more new equipment that a daily Cardinal would.

 

[jis]

The only way to get a daily Cardinal, other than come up with likely $10 million more in operating subsidies, is to truncate it in Washington. They cannot relay and service it in Sunnyside overnight in less than 9 hours.

They refuse to come up with so much as a 3rd coach and a diner now, so forget it. Senator Manchin is leaving the Senate and Indiana couldn't care less .

They could easily extend the Capitol Ltd to NY without needing any more equipment.

They can't just extend the Superliner Capitol to NYP.

We are talking of first converting the Cap to single level (3x single level consists) converting the Card to Superliner using the three released Superliner consists from the Cap, and using the 2 single level consists released from the Card on the Cap, thus requiring only one more single level consist for the Cap.

Then as the Card is now Superliner it turns at WAS, and the now single level Cap turns in NYP.

Net net require one more single level consist, and you get daily Card and Cap.

Actually to run a daily Card to NYP reliably one would require two additional consists, with outrageously horrible equipment utilization, whereas the scheme discussed above requires only one additional single level consist for daily reliable service on both trains with better equipment utilization.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

The only way to get a daily Cardinal, other than come up with likely $10 million more in operating subsidies, is to truncate it in Washington. They cannot relay and service it in Sunnyside overnight in less than 9 hours.

They refuse to come up with so much as a 3rd coach and a diner now, so forget it. Senator Manchin is leaving the Senate and Indiana couldn't care less .

They could easily extend the Capitol Ltd to NY without needing any more equipment.

Virginia, on the other hand, would care. The Cardinal is a day train between eastern West Virginia / western Virginia and NYC. But the equipment arguments, and time savings, make sense for extending the Capitol Ltd. The talk of making the Cardinal daily seems serious, is my vague impression. What would be great is to offset the schedule on half the week so it's also a day train between Chicago and Cincinnati on those days. Equipment, again. And it would only benefit two non-paying states, Ohio and Indiana.

The Buckingham Branch track for the Cardinal is state-owned in Virginia, but who knows about CSX's rights on it. Improvements are planned but not too soon. CSX spun it off to BB twenty years ago for a sizable short-line subsidy from the state. At least according to Wikipedia, the spin-off was actually an operating lease from CSX to BB, which is even crazier, because all the trains are BB locomotives with CSX coal hoppers. Term of the lease? Twenty years. Piecing that together with another source, BB was petitioning the Surface Transportation Board to acquire the line at the end of the lease, but then the state stepped in and bought it, after the typical negotiations.