Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Anderson]

A simple announcement requesting passengers to "proceed towards the vestibule "now" to disembark when the train stops", may do the trick. The passengers do indeed require to be reminded that this is not a plane.

If anything, on opening day Brightline was making the opposite announcement, asking people to remain seated until the train came to a stop.

 

[jis]

If anything, on opening day Brightline was making the opposite announcement, asking people to remain seated until the train came to a stop.

Maybe they have succumbed to the common rail management craziness which believes that trains are afterall like planes. Amtrak has believed that for a long time and tried desperately to take all the bad aspects of air travel experience and make it their own.

 

[Anderson]

So, a few thoughts as I head into Miami:
(1) I'd give the Premium OBS a B+. The staff are great (A+ vs Amtrak) but the food offering is a bit light. Having said that, being able to tap the Premium Lounge basically patches that hole (a light charcuterie breakfast isn't bad - it's honestly more to my taste than most of what I can get in the US).
(2) The wifi is a bit erratic. Not horrible, but it does cut in and out an annoying amount.
(3) The Premium Lounge gets an A. It's not as fancy as the NYP Metropolitan Lounge, but it's not too far behind it and is way better than the Club Acela at either WAS or BOS.
(4) I've got to say that the experience of just going for about two hours (save for a slowdown near the St. Lucie River) is wild. The only times I've experiences that were on that nonstop Acela in 2019 and on the Tehachapi reroute.

I do think Brightline is probably going to want to tinker with their pricing model - MCO-WPB being priced identically to WPB-MIA isn't quite logical, and I think that MCO-WPB/BOC/FLL is the really the "winner" in terms of markets (all three pairs being <3 hrs under normal circumstances). MCO-MIA isn't a bad market, but the others are shorter and all generally lack air service (vs MIA-MCO, which has extensive service).

 

[jiml]

If anything, on opening day Brightline was making the opposite announcement, asking people to remain seated until the train came to a stop.

VIA has a similar "policy" on its corridor trains, with varying degrees of enforcement. We frequently disembark at a smaller station, where trains stop very briefly, so have become conditioned to watching for a landmark that allows just enough time to grab our bags and line up at the vestibule as would be expected in Europe. We have frequently been told to return to our seats until the train comes to complete stop. Last trip I was told we were "still 10 minutes away from the station" and less than 2 minutes later we were stopped. I've assumed it's a liability thing.

 

[joelkfla]

For some people, pulling a suitcase down from the overhead rack while the train is moving could be a risky maneuver. If Brightline made an announcement saying to start heading to the door when the train is a few minutes out from the station, those folk may feel pressured to attempt it. There's your liability issue.

 

[UserNameRequired]

Could use this for instruction on getting up and getting off early :

 

[MARC Rider]

For some people, pulling a suitcase down from the overhead rack while the train is moving could be a risky maneuver. If Brightline made an announcement saying to start heading to the door when the train is a few minutes out from the station, those folk may feel pressured to attempt it. There's your liability issue.

They manage to do it with no problem on the NEC.

 

[VentureForth]

So, a few thoughts as I head into Miami:
(1) I'd give the Premium OBS a B+. The staff are great (A+ vs Amtrak) but the food offering is a bit light. Having said that, being able to tap the Premium Lounge basically patches that hole (a light charcuterie breakfast isn't bad - it's honestly more to my taste than most of what I can get in the US).
(2) The wifi is a bit erratic. Not horrible, but it does cut in and out an annoying amount.
(3) The Premium Lounge gets an A. It's not as fancy as the NYP Metropolitan Lounge, but it's not too far behind it and is way better than the Club Acela at either WAS or BOS.
(4) I've got to say that the experience of just going for about two hours (save for a slowdown near the St. Lucie River) is wild. The only times I've experiences that were on that nonstop Acela in 2019 and on the Tehachapi reroute.

I do think Brightline is probably going to want to tinker with their pricing model - MCO-WPB being priced identically to WPB-MIA isn't quite logical, and I think that MCO-WPB/BOC/FLL is the really the "winner" in terms of markets (all three pairs being <3 hrs under normal circumstances). MCO-MIA isn't a bad market, but the others are shorter and all generally lack air service (vs MIA-MCO, which has extensive service).

(1) I think there'd be a good market for good food to buy in Smart and Premium. Think "ekiben" on the Shinkansen. Please, anything other than chips and crackers!
(2) Is this cell based or sat based?
(3) This is interesting to be the highest rated (except staff) component. Ideally, me personally would try to arrive just minutes before departure. I say that, but I lie. I have waited for 30 minutes in the select lounge. But that's what sets train travel apart from air. Efficient arrival to the station before having to board.
(4) I can't wait to experience this!

I know everyone is calling this "higher speed" rail, and not true HSR. For comparison, when the Shinkansen opened in 1964, it's top speed was 135 MPH, so only 10 MPH higher than Brightline's top speed. Of course, that was 60 years ago and provisions were already in place to eventually allow up to 185 MPH today...

 

[cirdan]

I know everyone is calling this "higher speed" rail, and not true HSR. For comparison, when the Shinkansen opened in 1964, it's top speed was 135 MPH, so only 10 MPH higher than Brightline's top speed. Of course, that was 60 years ago and provisions were already in place to eventually allow up to 185 MPH today...

And I guess average speed was much higher. Brightline only achieves those 125mph on one shortish purpose-built section whereas the Shinkansen used purpose-built track almost throughout and this was aligned for higher speeds from the beginning.

At the end of the day its not the top speed that makes a train competitive but the average speed.

 

[jis]

And I guess average speed was much higher. Brightline only achieves those 125mph on one shortish purpose-built section whereas the Shinkansen used purpose-built track almost throughout and this was aligned for higher speeds from the beginning.

At the end of the day its not the top speed that makes a train competitive but the average speed.

One could legitimately say that every inch of Shinkansen track is purpose built. There was very little standard gauge main line trackage in Japan before Shinkansen was built. I don't recall when the first standard gauge subway was built. There have been some segments of standard gauge main line built not specifically for Shinkansen since then.

For Brightline the entire route was purpose rebuilt on an existing right of way, or built on new RoW. The tracks as they are today would never have been built even on the FECR segment in its current form if there were no Brightline. FECR's previous existing trackage was perfectly adequate for any growth plans sans Brightline that FECR had for many decades to come. The nature of the RoW however is such that it would be prohibitively expensive to try to install and operate any trackage above 110mph on it.

I do fully agree with your final point. I would say that what matters most is the end to end running time fits the purpose of the service and the convenience that it brings to the clientele, so as to make them willing customers, repeat ones many times if possible.

 

[cirdan]

One could legitimately say that every inch of Shinkansen track is purpose built. There was no standard gauge trackage in Japan before Shinkansen was built.

Depends how you define "purpose built". In the English speaking world we sometimes call the Shinkansen by the name of "Bullet train", which is actually based on a misunderstanding as this was originally the name of the earlier pre-war project for a standard gauge backbone, on which construction actually began, but no section of which was ever completed. With WW2 diverting attention and priorities elsewhere. But at least some of the begun bits were later completed for the Shinkansen. This is of course only a tiny fraction of the overall route and it is debatable how much of the original construction was actually repurposed versus being flattened and redone from scratch.

Hence my careful use of the word "almost"

 

[railiner]

Maybe they have succumbed to the common rail management craziness which believes that trains are afterall like planes. Amtrak has believed that for a long time and tried desperately to take all the bad aspects of air travel experience and make it their own.

In its early years, Amtrak indeed did try to emulate much of the airline practices, believing passengers perceived that as the modern way to go. Train design, reservation and ticketing, terminology, uniforms, and even executives were sourced from them.

Even prior to Amtrak, the streamliner era began, emulating automotive and aeronautical designs…

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

(1) I think there'd be a good market for good food to buy in Smart and Premium. Think "ekiben" on the Shinkansen. Please, anything other than chips and crackers!
(2) Is this cell based or sat based?
(3) This is interesting to be the highest rated (except staff) component. Ideally, me personally would try to arrive just minutes before departure. I say that, but I lie. I have waited for 30 minutes in the select lounge. But that's what sets train travel apart from air. Efficient arrival to the station before having to board.
(4) I can't wait to experience this!

I know everyone is calling this "higher speed" rail, and not true HSR. For comparison, when the Shinkansen opened in 1964, it's top speed was 135 MPH, so only 10 MPH higher than Brightline's top speed. Of course, that was 60 years ago and provisions were already in place to eventually allow up to 185 MPH today...

The internet is via Starlink satellite (Musk).

Brightline Florida won a CRISI grant, the only one of the 72 to mention A.I. It's called Trespassing Identification and Classification System Project (Up to $1,648,000). Amtraktrains post: IIJA Grant Awards

(I finally figured out "New Posts" does not have posts without replies. Those are in "What's New.")

 

[jis]

In its early years, Amtrak indeed did try to emulate much of the airline practices, believing passengers perceived that as the modern way to go. Train design, reservation and ticketing, terminology, uniforms, and even executives were sourced from them.

Even prior to Amtrak, the streamliner era began, emulating automotive and aeronautical designs…

I would say that there is nothing wrong with adopting aspects of airline operations that are good. For example, some of the airline reservation and status systems are an order of magnitude better these days. Afterall millions were spent to rearchitect and replace large chunks of the system, if not all of it, to achieve that, even though some of the legacy back ends continued to be used. Brightline has actually done a good job in this area and Amtrak has not yet.

But unfortunately, barring a few exceptions, there seems to be a propensity to pick up only the bad things selectively, perhaps because they are easier to just pick up and feel something was achieved in the process. Be on the lookout for seat belts, important for airlines, but not so much for trains.

 

[VentureForth]

One could legitimately say that every inch of Shinkansen track is purpose built. There was very little standard gauge main line trackage in Japan before Shinkansen was built. I don't recall when the first standard gauge subway was built. There have been some segments of standard gauge main line built not specifically for Shinkansen since then.

Not to derail the convo, but yes - there were two pre-Shinkansen subways that were standard gauge. The Ginza line opened in 1927 and the Marunouchi line in 1954 (with expansions until 1996). These are the only two standard gauge subways in Japan, and also the only two that use third-rail rather than overhead power.

 

[TRA_Thom]

Not to derail the convo, but yes - there were two pre-Shinkansen subways that were standard gauge. The Ginza line opened in 1927 and the Marunouchi line in 1954 (with expansions until 1996). These are the only two standard gauge subways in Japan, and also the only two that use third-rail rather than overhead power.

That last sentence is not true. There are many standard-gauge subways in Japan, including the Asakusa Line and the Oedo Line. Many other lines use third rail power as well, including in nearby Yokohama and the majority of the system in Osaka.

On the subject of Brightline, I am traveling down on Friday and I am very curious to ride it, having last been at MCO when the tracks weren't even laid yet.

 

[cirdan]

In its early years, Amtrak indeed did try to emulate much of the airline practices, believing passengers perceived that as the modern way to go. Train design, reservation and ticketing, terminology, uniforms, and even executives were sourced from them.

Even prior to Amtrak, the streamliner era began, emulating automotive and aeronautical designs…

Possibly to some extent the terminology influence went both ways. historically speaking at least

I believe terms such as coach, first class, etc were used on railroads long before the airlines picked them up.

 

[VentureForth]

That last sentence is not true. There are many standard-gauge subways in Japan, including the Asakusa Line and the Oedo Line. Many other lines use third rail power as well, including in nearby Yokohama and the majority of the system in Osaka.

On the subject of Brightline, I am traveling down on Friday and I am very curious to ride it, having last been at MCO when the tracks weren't even laid yet.

Well, fart. I stand corrected. In my defense, it's been 30 years since I've lived there.

 

[Anderson]

(1) I think there'd be a good market for good food to buy in Smart and Premium. Think "ekiben" on the Shinkansen. Please, anything other than chips and crackers!
(2) Is this cell based or sat based?
(3) This is interesting to be the highest rated (except staff) component. Ideally, me personally would try to arrive just minutes before departure. I say that, but I lie. I have waited for 30 minutes in the select lounge. But that's what sets train travel apart from air. Efficient arrival to the station before having to board.
(4) I can't wait to experience this!

I know everyone is calling this "higher speed" rail, and not true HSR. For comparison, when the Shinkansen opened in 1964, it's top speed was 135 MPH, so only 10 MPH higher than Brightline's top speed. Of course, that was 60 years ago and provisions were already in place to eventually allow up to 185 MPH today...

I should add...the seats get a B-. The padding isn't bad, but the recline is lousy. The design is better than the Acelas, but I'd probably take an Amfleet over it. It's fine for a short hop but at 3-4 hours leaves something to be desired.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Brightline is partnering with a limo-type company at MCO, rather than uber/lyft. I can't think of an airline that's done that. BRIGHTLINE ANNOUNCES ORLANDO TRANSPORTATION PARTNERS | Brightline

On opening day of WPB - MCO, one commenter on youtube said there was a noticeably flat wheel. BL does need to emergency stop fairly often. Also noted was that BL has to negotiate with FECR, not always cordially. The proposed partnership with Sunrail also came up as contentious. These are all normal railroad things.

The persistent argument that people need their cars at their destination came up a lot, with the retort that flying is the same.

Miles in Transit mentioned several times he thought that having security screening was odd. Welcome to Florida, land of gated communities and HOA's. Tri-Rail was the direct competition on MIA-WPB, going through an area of less wealth, and wealth disparity, than BL's coastal route. Then again, this is the guy who reviewed the North Philadelphia Amtrak station, a sort of disaster zone. (One with potential, since the North Broad Street commuter station is nearby, he noted.)

Also, many people don't know new BL stations are paid for by local governments.

 

[tgstubbs1]

Possibly to some extent the terminology influence went both ways. historically speaking at least

I believe terms such as coach, first class, etc were used on railroads long before the airlines picked them up.

I would agree. Horse drawn stage coachs also had classes of travel. I wonder where the name for the class of travel called "coach" came from?

A sample fare schedule posted at Lincoln, New Hampshire:
- 1st class: $7.00 (rode all the way)
- 2nd class: had to walk at bad places on the road
- 3rd class: same as above, but also had to push at hills

 

[lordsigma]

I will be vacationing in Florida in two weeks. Just booked a trip on Brightline - Orlando to Miami and back. Will plan to have a quick restaurant lunch in Miami while there. Please pass along any lunch recommendations near Miami Central.

 

[VentureForth]

Miles in Transit recommends the 11th St. Diner.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Miles in Transit mentioned several times he thought that having security screening was odd.

They make it pretty simple and easy though. I think one of the pro's of Brightline is having the ticket scanners so you have a Brightline waiting area that is closed off to the general public. This prevents the issues that many Amtrak stations have of becoming large homeless shelters. That alone makes the entire experience feel much more classy.

 

[jis]

They make it pretty simple and easy though. I think one of the pro's of Brightline is having the ticket scanners so you have a Brightline waiting area that is closed off to the general public. This prevents the issues that many Amtrak stations have of becoming large homeless shelters.

Yeah, the Security thing is about as non-obtrusive as it can be. Hand carried stuff on the belt and then just walk through between two posts pretty wide apart, and pick up your stuff before carrying on.

I agree about the virtues of having a waiting area just for ticketed passengers.