Back to the Buckets: Amtrak's bizarre pricing

[saxman]

Remember that you are buying a ticket from A to B only, and where you happen to connect is irrelevant. Joe is buying a ticket from Houston to Athens and the airline is charging what they think the market will bare from on the Houston to Athens route. He's not going to Paris. Air France thinks that a ticket should cost $XX on the Houston-Paris route so they adjust the ticket price accordingly. Where you happen to connect is simply irrelevant.

 

[calwatch]

Interestingly the San Joaquin JPA staff has recommended to the board to eliminate the bucket pricing on that line and go to a fixed fare, unreserved tickets like the other California trains. They stated that 90% of tickets were sold at the lowest bucket and the grief received when tickets were higher than that was not worth the added hassle, especially when few trains sell out and people can be accommodated in the cafe car if needed. I expect they might reserve during Thanksgiving but not elsewhere. New York might consider that on the Hudson corridor.

 

[Northeastern292]

Interestingly the San Joaquin JPA staff has recommended to the board to eliminate the bucket pricing on that line and go to a fixed fare, unreserved tickets like the other California trains. They stated that 90% of tickets were sold at the lowest bucket and the grief received when tickets were higher than that was not worth the added hassle, especially when few trains sell out and people can be accommodated in the cafe car if needed. I expect they might reserve during Thanksgiving but not elsewhere. New York might consider that on the Hudson corridor.

I'd be in heaven if NYSDOT forced Amtrak to go unreserved on the Empire Service, but it's an organization that lets Amtrak do their own thing. Amtrak treats the Empire Service as an extension of the NEC.
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[cpotisch]

Remember that you are buying a ticket from A to B only, and where you happen to connect is irrelevant. Joe is buying a ticket from Houston to Athens and the airline is charging what they think the market will bare from on the Houston to Athens route. He's not going to Paris. Air France thinks that a ticket should cost $XX on the Houston-Paris route so they adjust the ticket price accordingly. Where you happen to connect is simply irrelevant.

It is relevant if you plan to get off in that connecting city.

 

[Ryan]

If you plan on getting off in that connecting city, the the price for tickets going other places is irrelevant.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

If you plan on getting off in that connecting city, the the price for tickets going other places is irrelevant.

And most people won't be checking flights to cities beyond their destination.

 

[jis]

If you plan on getting off in that connecting city, the the price for tickets going other places is irrelevant.

And most people won't be checking flights to cities beyond their destination.

Well, if they are looking for a hidden city lower fare, they would be looking for beyond Paris cities connecting through Paris that have lower fares than just a plain fare to Paris, no?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

If you plan on getting off in that connecting city, the the price for tickets going other places is irrelevant.

And most people won't be checking flights to cities beyond their destination.

Well, if they are looking for a hidden city lower fare, they would be looking for beyond Paris cities connecting through Paris that have lower fares than just a plain fare to Paris, no?

Yes, there are those people, but I suspect they're in the minority. Didn't the airlines try to shut down the website that showed how to do this?

 

[KmH]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_pricing

I'll be on the CZ next week.

A couple of weeks ago the train was completely book. Every ticket/accommodation type was None Left.

Then a Bedroom opened up and was available for $1813.

Apparently several bedrooms are available as of today because the price is now down almost $1000 - to $833.

And a Roomette or 2 have opened up, but as of today a Roomette is $917 - approaching $100 more than a bedroom.

My guess is that the rail touring company didn't sell all of the rooms in the sleepers that they had reserved. Of all the trains that we travel on, we have never been on a a trip without running into a tour group on the CZ May thru Sept. IMO, rail touring companies are driving the prices up for all of us. My guess is that since they represent volume, they also get special T's and C's.

The Bedrooms and Family rooms are all sold out again and with the departure date less than a week away Amtrak is offering one or more of the Accessible rooms to anyone for $1181.

Whatever Roomettes are still available are still $917 - a bit more than 2x what I paid by booking in advance.

I'm checking priced OTM to SAC.

As of a few minutes ago there are no sleeper accommodations left on 5(25) CHI - EMY and only Coach Flexible tickets @ $329.00

OTM - SAC coach flexible fare is $292.

 

[niemi24s]

Didn't the airlines try to shut down the website that showed how to do this?

Oops Delta United tried, but it's apparently still up and running: https://skiplagged.com/

 

[cpotisch]

Didn't the airlines try to shut down the website that showed how to do this?

Oops Delta United tried, but it's apparently still up and running: https://skiplagged.com/

Yeah. That was the one I linked to earlier:

So-called 'hidden city' flights are actually relatively common. You can use this site to find them. Just remember not to check a bag on a hidden-city flight, as that bag will end up at the final airport, which you probably don't want.

Right on the skiplagged home page, it proudly says "Our flights are so cheap, United tried to sue us...but we won". It is true that most people aren't checking for hidden city flights every time they book, but I do recommend it.

 

[PaulM]

You want bizarre? What you see below is an option you get when you enter CHI to NOL. The routing is EB 27, CSL 11, and SL 1 via Portland, OR and LA.

The prices are $1918 for all coach, $1142 for coach on 27 and 1 and BC on 11, and $2101 for all roomettes, less than $200 more than coach.

 

[chakk]

I bet lots of AUers have taken such a routing between CHI and NOL with points -- especially in the AGR I days.

 

[Don Newcomb]

....IMO, rail touring companies are driving the prices up for all of us. My guess is that since they represent volume, they also get special T's and C's.

and IMHO, if they inch Amtrak a bit closer toward solvency, it's not a bad thing.

 

[Ryan]

Those NaN Coach seats almost certainly aren't real.

 

[niemi24s]

Those NaN Coach seats almost certainly aren't real.

NaN? Now and Never??

 

[Ryan]

Not a number...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaN

 

[jis]

You want bizarre? What you see below is an option you get when you enter CHI to NOL. The routing is EB 27, CSL 11, and SL 1 via Portland, OR and LA.

The prices are $1918 for all coach, $1142 for coach on 27 and 1 and BC on 11, and $2101 for all roomettes, less than $200 more than coach.

This is specially provided for the use of the Traveler, though most likely using points, not dollars [emoji51]

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[Don Newcomb]

Those NaN Coach seats almost certainly aren't real.

It's interesting that a NaN would show up like that. I wonder how they're coding the number of seats? Why would it be anything but an integer?

 

[PaulM]

Those NaN Coach seats almost certainly aren't real.

I don't know what NaN means; but with $1918 for coach-coach-coach and $1142 for coach-BC-coach, one of them mustn't be real. But on the other hand, maybe no one wanted BC on the CSL that day. We are constantly told that these odd sightings are caused by the law of supply and demand.

 

[cpotisch]

Those NaN Coach seats almost certainly aren't real.

I don't know what NaN means; but with $1918 for coach-coach-coach and $1142 for coach-BC-coach, one of them mustn't be real. But on the other hand, maybe no one wanted BC on the CSL that day. We are constantly told that these odd sightings are caused by the law of supply and demand.

Or in this case that Arrow is a glitchy and primitive system with a penchant for bizarre and sudden price fluctuations with little connection to reality.

 

[Ryan]

I don't know what NaN means;

Not a number...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaN

 

[Don Newcomb]

I don't know what NaN means;

When a computer performs a calculation and expects the result to be a number but it turns out to be something else, it substitutes a special code in that memory location which will be normally be printed as "NaN" (Not a number). This sometimes happens when the program attempts to divide by zero but there are many other events that will create a NaN. In an online production system like Amtrak's reservation system, seeing a NaN is a pretty good indication of a poorly written and tested system. Sort of like seeing "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor...." in the NY Times.

 

[GBNorman]

I don't know what NaN means; but with $1918 for coach-coach-coach and $1142 for coach-BC-coach, one of them mustn't be real.

Possibly this is greatly simplifying the definition, but it would seem that when working with Excel, an entry that returns something like "DIV!=0", is a NaN.
But more to the point at hand is that even airlines, with their demand pricing far more perfected than Amtrak could ever expect theirs to be, also have their "moments". There are documented cases where an airline's own site has unintentionally quoted a $1 fare for a flight. The airline is stuck, as existing regulations require they honor such (not sure if a third-party site were to quote something like that).

I've had cases of such myself - and I'm only an occasional flier (YTD: 2 flights; 2 more booked). During '16, a posted fare to Munich on United was $4500 - and that involved connections. This was a "take it or leave it"; I wanted to go so I reluctantly took it (only other on the route is Lufthansa; they and United code share, so their fares will be in "lock step"). But I still periodically checked their site. I couldn't believe it when a $2500 fare showed up - and this was on Nonstops. Hey, for that diff I'll take the $450 exchange fee and rebook - and make it my business to use the $1500 voucher before it expired a year later. This could well have been a "mistake fare", as a day later, it was gone.

Now this year, it was more of same even if not quite as dramatic. For a round trip to Munich (the draw for me is the Salzburg Festival), the fare I first see again is $4900 on both of 'em. I said unacceptable and just wasn't going to go (I go to concerts to hear works I haven't heard before; and at Salzburg there is a lot of "play it again Wolfie"). But "just keep checking" and a $3200 fare showed up. That was acceptable and I grabbed it. It lasted for a week and is now gone.

I wonder why the airlines are now seeking relief from the DOT (their non-Safety regulators) from both "mistake fares" and from the prevailing 24 hour rule allowing a no penalty CX.

Maybe Amtrak posts these "mistake fares" and maybe they are obliged to honor them. I defer to those (most all around here) who ride Amtrak more frequently than do I (I'm pretty much a "once a year" on Auto-Train).

 

[Walt]

But more to the point at hand is that even airlines, with their demand pricing far more perfected than Amtrak could ever expect theirs to be, also have their "moments". There are documented cases where an airline's own site have unintentionally quoted a $1 fare for a flight. The airline is stuck, as existing regulations require they honor such (not sure if a third-party site were to quote something like that).

That changed a few years ago...

In the past, airlines were required by the Department of Transportation to honor mistake fares, however under priced they were. The landmark United Denmark fares, however, set in motion the DOTs decision to allow airlines to withdraw these tickets.

More details...

Back in the day the US Department of Transportation was strict in requiring airlines to honor mistake fares that touch US soil, though they changed their policy in 2015. This was part of a policy against post-purchase price increases. Originally the relevant part of the policy was as follows:

The Enforcement Office explained that if a consumer purchases a fare and receives confirmation of the purchase and the purchase appears on the consumers credit card statement and/or online account summary, then there has been a purchase whether or not it was a mistaken fare and the post purchase price prohibition in section 399.88 applies.

In 2015 that policy was updated as follows:

As a matter of prosecutorial discretion, the Enforcement Office will not enforce the requirement of section 399.88 with regard to mistaken fares occurring on or after the date of this notice so long as the airline or seller of air transportation: (1) demonstrates that the fare was a mistake fare ...