Auto Train Security?

[TVRM610]

The point that I was making is that the Autotrain runs at a consistent 70mph on much of a non-stop run. Other Eastern routes do have slower stretches AND station stops. In comparison our trip to Chicago on the CL last June was far smoother than on the Autotrain. The trackage on the A/T route is some of the roughest that we've experienced. I know that the A/T runs on CSX trackage but I though that the section through the Folkson Funnel was owned by NS.

The Capitol Limited runs on NS tracks west of Pittsburgh. NS is MUCH smoother than CSX track.

I'd be willing to bet (not a large bet though) that the Capitol has a higher average speed than the Auto Train, at least for the overnight sections.

 

[BobWeaver]

The point that I was making is that the Autotrain runs at a consistent 70mph on much of a non-stop run. Other Eastern routes do have slower stretches AND station stops. In comparison our trip to Chicago on the CL last June was far smoother than on the Autotrain. The trackage on the A/T route is some of the roughest that we've experienced. I know that the A/T runs on CSX trackage but I though that the section through the Folkson Funnel was owned by NS.

Auto Train will not have faster sections than any of the Silver Service trains, Palmetto included. The exact opposite is true, as Auto Train's top speed is 70mph, whereas the other trains will peak at 79mph. Auto Train runs on the RF&P sub down to Richmond, and then it's CSX's A Line all the way to Jacksonville, Folkston included. Isn't Sanford on the S-Line? I'm a little rusty on some of my CSX facts...

I'd be willing to bet (not a large bet though) that the Capitol has a higher average speed than the Auto Train, at least for the overnight sections.

Eh not quite. Auto Train is still averages a few miles per hour faster over the course of its runs.

 

[Linda Grau]

I remember around The State of the Union address Obama said something like "Take the Amtrak if you don't want a patdown."

 

[Barry]

My wife and I rode the Auto Train last week in both directions (North then South to return home).

With respect to the discussions above, we observed the following.

The ride varies depending on the quality of the rails. In some stretches it is obviously a welded well maintained rail bed and the ride is reasonably smooth with minimal clickityclack. In other areas the rail bed sucks and the ride is noisy and rough with a lot of sudden significant jerks. Even though we are long time boaters and certainly have well practiced sea legs, it was difficult sometimes to walk. We were joking that an equivalent ride on an air plane would be considered very rough and cause a lot of white knuckles. I cannot offer an accurate estimate of what portion of the trip was over a competent rail bed but I would guess about 1/3 rough and 2/3 smooth.

Just south of Lorton we were at a full stop and I was watching the rails as various freight consists past by. To my surprise, the ties at any given instant under a truck noticeably sunk into the ballast and then popped back up as soon as the truck past. Since these trains were moving at a relatively high speed, the ties and rails just kept bouncing up and down with each set of wheels/trucks. No wonder so many spikes in the area visible to me were only partially seated.

The maximum speed and the maximum sustained speed during the night was 70 mph (per my GPS). However, there were many slowdowns and even stops. There were also long stretches that appeared to have much lower speed limits (e.g. 45 mph). I was told about 50% of the right of away is a single track right of away. I also read somewhere that freight has the priority (understandably). Therefore, the amount of slowing and waiting on a siding is dependent on the amount of freight traffic. When I asked about this an Amtrak employee that seemed to be the Conductor told me it was first come first served for a single track right of away but my instincts tell me that is not correct.

I saw no obvious security measures. My wife checked early in while I sat in the car so I never showed anyone my ID. Later when we checked the car and then even later when we boarded, no one asked me for ID. Our carry ons were never screened. This was true at both Sanford and Lorton. Prior to departure at both stations anyone had free run of the entire boarding platform. There was even a seemingly unattended yard switcher parked one track over from the platform. I cannot remember if it was idling but it was readily accessibly for anyone to board it. That does not mean there was not video surveillance but nothing was obvious.

 

[Ryan]

I also read somewhere that freight has the priority (understandably).

Wherever you read that was mistaken.

 

[Barry]

I also read somewhere that freight has the priority (understandably).

Wherever you read that was mistaken.

Ryan, thanks for clarifying that. I guess it really is first come first served when only a single track is available.

I hope you do not mind a question:

With respect to HEP, what is the typical Auto Train load? I suspect it would be heaviest prior to dark with the highest A/C heat load and the galleys preparing meals. Each of the two Genesis P40's appears to have a HEP capacity of 800 KW but I doubt the max load is anything close to this high. I am curious because 800 KW at 480 V 3 Phase is just under 1000 amps and that is a lot of current to deal with. It would take three 500 mcm cables per phase to handle this much current. The jumpers and associated connectors between cars did not appear to have anything close to this capacity. In other words, there seems to be much more HEP capacity available than there is ability to distribute it, at least through the first cars behind the engine. (I am an EE and manage Electrical Maintenance at a large Nuclear Plant, ergo my interest in power distribution).

Thanks for responding. I know very little about RR technology but find it hard not to be curious about it. I actually have numerous other questions about signaling, routing (who sets the switches so the train takes the correct path - this must take enormous coordination by someone considering the large number of trains all going to different locations), engine control and operation, etc. In any case, now that I have taken a train trip, and my interest has been stirred, I guess I have a lot of interesting research to do.

 

[AlanB]

With respect to HEP, what is the typical Auto Train load? I suspect it would be heaviest prior to dark with the highest A/C heat load and the galleys preparing meals. Each of the two Genesis P40's appears to have a HEP capacity of 800 KW but I doubt the max load is anything close to this high. I am curious because 800 KW at 480 V 3 Phase is just under 1000 amps and that is a lot of current to deal with. It would take three 500 mcm cables per phase to handle this much current. The jumpers and associated connectors between cars did not appear to have anything close to this capacity. In other words, there seems to be much more HEP capacity available than there is ability to distribute it, at least through the first cars behind the engine. (I am an EE and manage Electrical Maintenance at a large Nuclear Plant, ergo my interest in power distribution).

Thanks for responding. I know very little about RR technology but find it hard not to be curious about it. I actually have numerous other questions about signaling, routing (who sets the switches so the train takes the correct path - this must take enormous coordination by someone considering the large number of trains all going to different locations), engine control and operation, etc. In any case, now that I have taken a train trip, and my interest has been stirred, I guess I have a lot of interesting research to do.

Barry,

While I'm not Ryan, I can help a bit. Amtrak cannot run the two engines in series if you will. Therefore they can only provide HEP from one of the two engines at any given time.

This in fact is a very limiting thing for Amtrak, as they cannot add more cars to this train during the busiest periods. They're maxing out what the engine and cables can provide with 3 dining cars, 2 lounge cars, 6 sleepers, 1 Trans/Dorm, and 5 or 6 coaches.

 

[Ryan]

Welcome to the rabbit hole, the hobby is a fascinating one. I too find the operational side of things to be the most interesting part of the deal.

You are correct in your deductions, it isn't just the jumpers it's also the wiring inside the cars that limits the length of the train.

There's been some speculation around here that it would be theoretically possible to put a second locomotive between the autoracks and passenger cars (it can't go on the tail because the autoracks don't have the cable needed to pass HEP) to run the train "split bus" to allow for longer trains. In practice that isn't really going to happen as you would need to pay an engineer to sit in the locomotive to secure power if it becomes necessary.

 

[George Harris]

Yes, it is all CSX, in fact, ex RF&P north of Richmond and ex ACL south thereof.

Extra sway is probably more because of the additional height of the superliner and for those on the upper level, which will be most people, a longer end of the see saw than you have in a single level car than anything else. If anything, the lower speed limit should help.

 

[Barry]

There's been some speculation around here that it would be theoretically possible to put a second locomotive between the autoracks and passenger cars (it can't go on the tail because the autoracks don't have the cable needed to pass HEP) to run the train "split bus" to allow for longer trains.

Thank you all very much for responding to my questions. I never gave RR operations much thought until this past week but our very enjoyable round trip certainly opened my eyes to a fascinating world of different technology.

I wonder if anyone ever looked at the potential payback associated with building a dedicated "Train Services" car that would be nothing more than a hollow shell with a 400 KW or so diesel generator in it. I know from experience these type of machines are designed to start and run for long periods unattended so a dedicated person to monitor it would not be necessary. The revenue from the additional cars that could be added to the consist during peak periods might just justify the expense of something like this.

I noticed when the train is in the station and on "shore power" (I have no idea what RRs call the equivalent) the train is electrically split. I took note of this because it clearly highlighted how much load there is to provide for. It was interesting to see how long it took to reconfigure from shore to HEP. After thinking about it it is understandable as there appears to be a lot of cables/jumpers that need reconfiguring at both the center of the train and then between the engines and first passenger car.

I also noticed that since everything is in series, a fault in any car or between car jumpers takes out all AC hotel power to all cars aft of the fault. This must be especially difficult with respect to customer relations if the problem occurs in a car near the engine. That must eventually happen sometime and must cause a huge problem for Amtrak. I just cannot imagine running a train through the night without any A/C, any forced ventilation, only battery operated DC lights, no toilets or sanitation, and no food service if the problem occurs early enough. If I was the Amtrak Maintenance Manager I think I would identify the through car AC power distribution a critical system that would demand a high level of preventive maintenance and periodic testing.

 

[AlanB]

I wonder if anyone ever looked at the potential payback associated with building a dedicated "Train Services" car that would be nothing more than a hollow shell with a 400 KW or so diesel generator in it. I know from experience these type of machines are designed to start and run for long periods unattended so a dedicated person to monitor it would not be necessary. The revenue from the additional cars that could be added to the consist during peak periods might just justify the expense of something like this.

Just to provide you with a bit more info, the issue surrounding the dedicated person is the fact that there is are FRA rules about being able to turn on/off the HEP. That's part of the reason why Amtrak doesn't add a third engine in the middle so as to be able to short loop some cars and extend the train length. There is the added expense of simply running a third engine, but there is also the issue of how FRA rules come into play and require a warm body in that engine to be able to turn on/off the HEP and monitor other engine issues too.

When the engines are coupled together the engineer can monitor all engines up front. Seperate them with cars and the engineer cannot monitor the engine in the middle.

I noticed when the train is in the station and on "shore power" (I have no idea what RRs call the equivalent) the train is electrically split. I took note of this because it clearly highlighted how much load there is to provide for. It was interesting to see how long it took to reconfigure from shore to HEP. After thinking about it it is understandable as there appears to be a lot of cables/jumpers that need reconfiguring at both the center of the train and then between the engines and first passenger car.

I suspect that what you saw as taking a long time with the HEP wasn't just the issues surrounding HEP. When they start any switching moves, all HEP must be off so as to prevent accidental electricution of personel. In Sanford you've got to put the two sections of the passenger portion of the train together and then you have to couple on the Auto Carriers. So from start to finish of that entire procedure, there is no HEP in the train.

I also noticed that since everything is in series, a fault in any car or between car jumpers takes out all AC hotel power to all cars aft of the fault. This must be especially difficult with respect to customer relations if the problem occurs in a car near the engine. That must eventually happen sometime and must cause a huge problem for Amtrak. I just cannot imagine running a train through the night without any A/C, any forced ventilation, only battery operated DC lights, no toilets or sanitation, and no food service if the problem occurs early enough. If I was the Amtrak Maintenance Manager I think I would identify the through car AC power distribution a critical system that would demand a high level of preventive maintenance and periodic testing.

I'm far from an expert on this, but I believe that pretty much the only thing that would take out everything would be a failed cable between cars. And they're supposed to have a couple of spares onboard. But otherwise in most circumstances I believe that even if one car should have problems and end up with zero power, that power could & would still pass through to the following cars.

 

[CHamilton]

I'm far from an expert on this, but I believe that pretty much the only thing that would take out everything would be a failed cable between cars. And they're supposed to have a couple of spares onboard. But otherwise in most circumstances I believe that even if one car should have problems and end up with zero power, that power could & would still pass through to the following cars.

I was on the Sunset a few years ago, and we had just left Del Rio (I believe) station when there was a huge white flash outside the window, together with a pretty large bang. The power went out, as apparently the cable connecting our car to the one ahead had disconnected. Luckily, the crew was able to walk over to a business across the street and get some duct tape, with which they taped everything back together again. Or so I was told when I asked. The conductor seemed pretty blase about it, and said that cables disconnected pretty frequently. I always wondered what they would have done if we'd been in the desert someplace.

 

[Trogdor]

I'm far from an expert on this, but I believe that pretty much the only thing that would take out everything would be a failed cable between cars. And they're supposed to have a couple of spares onboard. But otherwise in most circumstances I believe that even if one car should have problems and end up with zero power, that power could & would still pass through to the following cars.

I'm also not an expert on this, but my experience with HEP problems on trains has been that the entire train loses power. I've never seen or heard of a train where a middle car had HEP problems but everything else on the train worked.

I'm not going to try and get into the really technical details, since electrical circuits aren't my thing, but there is a process called "short looping" a train that can, in certain circumstainces, preserve power to the entire train even if there is an electrical problem somewhere. Basically, there are two HEP loops, one on the right side and one on the left side (that's why there are HEP cables on both sides of the couplers). If they somehow identify where the problem is, they can short loop before that location, so only one side would be fully connected from the engine to the tail, and the other side would be looped from the front just to the last "good" car.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'm far from an expert on this, but I believe that pretty much the only thing that would take out everything would be a failed cable between cars. And they're supposed to have a couple of spares onboard. But otherwise in most circumstances I believe that even if one car should have problems and end up with zero power, that power could & would still pass through to the following cars.

I was on the Sunset a few years ago, and we had just left Del Rio (I believe) station when there was a huge white flash outside the window, together with a pretty large bang. The power went out, as apparently the cable connecting our car to the one ahead had disconnected. Luckily, the crew was able to walk over to a business across the street and get some duct tape, with which they taped everything back together again. Or so I was told when I asked. The conductor seemed pretty blase about it, and said that cables disconnected pretty frequently. I always wondered what they would have done if we'd been in the desert someplace.

Duct tape saves the day again! :lol: In the event of failure in the boonies, the Crew could borrow some from any AU members aboard since "we don't leave home without it!" :lol: :lol: :lol: !

 

[Barry]

... there are two HEP loops, one on the right side and one on the left side (that's why there are HEP cables on both sides of the couplers).

I noticed 480 V 3 phase connectors on both sides and was curious why there are two sets. This probably explains it; redundancy so a fault in one circuit can be easily rerouted through the other simply by reconnecting the jumpers.

I am glad I found this forum. Some really interesting information about a subject I know nothing about. I do know a lot about low and medium voltage power distribution (especially in industrial venues) but not in a railroad mobile application. This is fascinating and I appreciate those who are taking the time to respond to my questions.

I suspect each so called "loop" is nothing more than a copper bus that runs from one end of the car to the other, terminating in the connectors at each end of the car. I would guess it is what is referred to as a "non-segregated" bus meaning all three sets of bus bars are in a single enclosure. This would provide high reliability and high current carrying capacity (800KW = 962 amps). There is probably a single tap on this bus for an on car distribution panel. I have no reason to suspect it is designed this way other than that is how I would do it if I were designing it.

BTW, if someone working for me used duct tape as a 480 volt insulating material, I would fire him on the spot. Duct tape is nothing more than a loose cloth weave impregnated with an adhesive. It has great mechanical strength but, even though the adhesive has some insulating ability (it is sometimes polyethylene based), I do not believe it has any proven ability to be safely used as an insulating material. Trust me, 480 Volts is nothing to take chances with and restoring A/C does not constitute an emergency sufficient to risk injury or fire. Just my opinion.

 

[oldtimer]

I would like to jump into the electrical end of this now hijacked topic.

Before my retirement I worked 36+ years on Amtrak equipment, 35+ of those directly for Amtrak. I worked on the first HEP equipment that Amtrak had (the TMT's United Aircraft Turbotrains).

I can tell you that the HEP cables are 4/0 transit wire. This wire is strung under the carbody. The power is 480 VAC 3 phase. All 12 cables from each end of the car meet at one central junction box. It is at this point that they connect to 3 copper buss bars, one for each phase. The buss bar for each phase has 8 cables connected to in and a 4/0 tapoff that feeds the rail cars main circuit breaker. The car has a set of 480 VAC buss bars after the main breaker to distribute the power.

The fact that all cables connect to one buss bar per phase does not allow for splitting the electrical load. VIA uses a split buss bar system that allows for longer trains but reduces the redundancy if a connecting cable fails. The HEP cables are hard wired at one end and have been for several years so that carrying a spare cable is no longer a viable option. If a cable fails it is possible to Disconnect the bad cable and and electrically insulate it with the proper material NOT DUCT TAPE.

This create another new problem as it was pointed out that when a train is put on standby(ground or shore) power there is a low voltage loop circuit that is carried on smaller pins of the HEP cable heads and receptacles. This circuit is routed through all of the HEP cables down one side set of cables back up the same side second cable, it crosses over to the other side of the train and don that side to the end where it is fed back to the last set of cables. If one of these small pins loses contact all HEP shuts down. The protection circuit uses shorter pins so that they will open the loop circuit and shut the 480 down before contact is broken.

When a train is "short looped" a cable before the offending car is disconnected and plugged back into that car, leaving all of the current to travel on the 480 cables on the opposite side of the car. It is interesting to note that GE diesel locos will allow an open control circuit if the loco is above 5 MPH. Some times you will have a train that loses HEP at stops but regains it in motion, that train has a defective or not fully installed HEP cable.

I hope this clears up some of the questions, if not PM me.

PS As to the origin of the term "shore power" it probably originated with the United Aircraft Turbotrains as they were based at Field's Point, Rhode Island actually at a port facility where 480 VAC 3 phase was already available for ship use while in port. This system was used on the trains with a simple change of connectors.

OT2

:huh: :help:

 

[George Harris]

Just south of Lorton we were at a full stop and I was watching the rails as various freight consists past by. To my surprise, the ties at any given instant under a truck noticeably sunk into the ballast and then popped back up as soon as the truck past. Since these trains were moving at a relatively high speed, the ties and rails just kept bouncing up and down with each set of wheels/trucks. No wonder so many spikes in the area visible to me were only partially seated.

All track does that. It had better. It is like the three bears porrige. Not too much, not too little, but just right. The property is called the spring rate. And, it took a log time to figure out, 1. that it was necessary, and 2. what the "just right" value is, and some would argue that we have not yet decided what the "just right" number should be, and how much difference it should have for different types of traffic. In general, the amount of deflection you get with a good well maintained ballasted track appears to be in the neighborhood of "just right."

The pioneering work on this subject, at least in the US, was the result of a series of studies done in the 1910 to 1940 time frame done by the American Railway Engineering Association's Special Committee on Stresses in Railroad Track. In its earlier years it was a joint committee with the American Society of Civil Engineers. They are collectively referred to as "the Talbot Reports" after the chairman, Dr. Arthur N. Talbot of the University of illinois. These reports in total run to over 1300 pages. There are other studies done in the US some earlier and quite a few since plus quite a few others done in other countries.

There is no need to get too excited about spikes not being down tight. In fact, they should not be down completely tight. if they are, they will promptly be driven up some by the vertical wave in the rail that goes up in advance of the depression under the wheel.

 

[dlagrua]

Earlier in this post I told the passenger to be prepared for a bumpy ride as the Autotrain moves at 70 MPH most of the night. Another poster claimed that this is so on many Amtrak routes but not really. Other Amtrak routes have station stops so the train will periodically slow down and accelerate. On some routes there can be up to a 30 minute wait sitting at one station so the rocking isn't constant. The CSX frieght track to Florida isn't as well maintained (as NS track) and with a superliner traveling at 70 mph with only one stop at Florence, the ride isn't that smooth. We've traveled on quite a few Amtrak routes and I can tell you that the Autotrain isn't the smoothest route. With some adult beverages in your system or with an herbal sleep aid you can get some sleep but many people that we've met cannot sleep on this route. Still we are taking the A/T to Florida in May 2012. The trip may not be as smooth as say the Crescent or the Capitol Limited but the dinners are excellent, it is still enjoyable and beats driving any day.

 

[Barry]

Dlagrua, although we noted the ride varied from good to rough, it never bothered us or detracted from the enjoyable round trip we had. Both of us are long time boaters and after spending countless nights over the years in less than glassy seas in V-berths and other not so spacious accommodations, we certainly had no issues at all with the Auto Train and no problem sleeping (especially after a few glasses of Amtrak dinner wine). In fact we really enjoyed it, had a lot of fun, and intend to take advantage of it for future trips. It certainly beat driving a boring Lexus SUV on the very efficient sleep aid referred to as I95. We were also impressed about how well Auto Train had their act together. They really have that thing down to a well oiled science and the hotel crew were all very customer oriented.

George, after thinking about it, what you said about the "spring rate" makes a lot of sense. I suspect a rigid system without any flexibility would result in frequent material failure from work hardening. I am not sure I understand why the spikes should not be tight because it seems to me the spikes hold everything in the intended alignment. I would think if the spikes are loose, the spacing between the rails, etc. can start to vary a little and that would lead to the unwanted ride motion.

Oldtimer2, thank you for taking the time to write that excellent explanation. I was surprised that cables instead of bus bars are used to carry the power from one end of the car to the other. I assume for protection and reliability the cables must be completely enclosed in some sort of metal trough or raceway, maybe each phase in its own raceway. You stated 12 4/0 cables so I assume that means four per phase (there is probably no need for a neutral in the 480 V system). That must result in some significant temperature rise in the first few cars because, assuming a full 800 KW (960 Amps), each cable would see 240 Amps. That corresponds to a temperature of well over 75 degrees C for each conductor, depending on the ambient. I do not know what kind of insulation "transit wire" uses but it must be rated at a very high temperature. It has been my experience that the very high temperature insulating materials tend to be brittle and are not suited for applications where they are subject to mechanical stress such as vibration so it would be interesting to learn more about it. I suspect Google will be my next stop in a few minutes. The low voltage loop you mentioned also makes a lot of sense. Pulling out one of the jumpers while under load would result in a very dangerous arc so it makes sense that a circuit breaker (designed to interrupt load and fault current) interrupts the circuit before the main pins separate. Also, it was not my intention to hijack this thread so I sincerely apologize for that.

Thanks again for the responses.

 

[bobnabq]

My guess is bomb sniffing dogs.

My guess would be drugs, at least on the SWC.

At least once a month there's a news story on local TV about a drug bust on that train coming East from LA.