Auto Train Cuts
- Thread starter printman2000
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
- Status
Thanks for the detailed breakdown. If the AT is currently running with the 6th coach car, then there will no increase in capacity for April, unless April is warm enough that they have to cut back to 16 cars total. Checked Amsnag for the month of April for the northbound SFA to LOR: AT is totally sold out April 1, 19, 26; no roomettes available at ALL for the entire month. If the 6th coach car was not in the consist plan for the spring travel peak, but will now be after March 14 with the swap out of the lounge car, we should see coach seats open up for sale.
I'm of the opinion that these changes won't noticeably hurt AT sleeper sales. full disclosure, I have never taken the AT, but I'm not that picky about amenities. I would take the AT so I could take my car to Florida w/o putting 800 miles on it and save on a long boring drive. Not because the dinner is served on china, or there is a second lounge car or free wine.
If the changes that affect the passengers do take effect on March 14, we will see in the monthly reports by this summer whether passenger numbers are up or down. Because people have already brought their tickets for March, April and made their plans, we will have to wait for the June, July, August numbers to see if there is any visible erosion in sleeper sales. And even then, lot of people have already booked for the summer months. So it may take until fall before there could be evidence whether these changes hurt or not.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think this is a bad idea; it's these little extras that people remember. I work as an insurance adjuster, and I see some body shops giving customers "freebies" like cookies and gift bags at the end of their repairs; it's this kind of unexpected, "chotchke" (sp?) stuff that leaves a lasting impression in people's mind, along with of course friendly service and quality. Auto Train fare is not insubstantial whether in coach or sleeper (though the sleeper upgrade is less than on other Amtrak services), so people should expect something more than bare bones. In fact, most Amtrak sleeper fares fit under the "deluxe" category, and the accompanying extras should be commensurate with this. I remember the NY-Chicago slumbercoach fare in 1995 used to be $46 over coach; peanuts, really, even 20 years ago. With prices like this, no one complained that no extras were added in. On the other side of the coin, just to dream I priced out a Calgary-Vancouver Rocky Mountaineer train in "Goldleaf" class; $4500 for two people for a two day train ride! At these prices I would expect almost a private car! Bottom line is, Amtrak needs to find that happy medium; good, fresh cooked food and a few little extras should make just about everyone happy without breaking the bank.
Wait until the lounge is full with coach passengers, camping out for the entire trip, and there is never even a single open seat for a Sleeper passenger.
ScottRu
Service Attendant
I'm with "Engineer." We've taken the AT for years. Initially it was a wonderfully civilized, romantic way to travel. Even the boring scenery (which we came to know quite well!) was all right because the staff was extremely helpful and cordial, the wine & cheese was a nice touch and an opportunity to meet our fellow travelers, the dining car experiences were routinely an enjoyable part of the trip. The linen table clothes and china just added to the experience.
Slowly the cost began to escalate and the service began to decline. (Also the 8 hour trip from Lorton back to Boston at the end of our time in Florida seemed to get longer and longer.)
So this year we've taken the Silver Meteor and rented a car (heading back on Saturday). We were thinking of next year returning to the AT until i read of these changes. Now I'm ready to get my Silvers reservations for next year.
Slowly the cost began to escalate and the service began to decline. (Also the 8 hour trip from Lorton back to Boston at the end of our time in Florida seemed to get longer and longer.)
So this year we've taken the Silver Meteor and rented a car (heading back on Saturday). We were thinking of next year returning to the AT until i read of these changes. Now I'm ready to get my Silvers reservations for next year.
Shortline
Conductor
PPC replacements?
Just to piggyback off my last post, what I REALLY think Amtrak should do is to offer sleepers at a greatly reduced price as a “barebones” service, with no meals or other services included. You can then make the diner a “pay as you go” offering meals at lower prices throughout the day. Attendants would be on hand only to make up beds and assist mobility impaired passengers, which in reality is all most do now anyway. This would appeal to a broader range of people who don’t want or expect first class service (which isn’t really first class anyway); there is a world of travelers out there who can’t pony up the sleeper fare, but wouldn’t travel overnight in coach; these people generally fly or drive. Let’s face it; Amtrak’s first class is not first class, and it’s time to come to grips with it. That the carrier even offers this flies in the face of Amtrak providing a necessary transportation. And finally, and I think this will prove unpopular to many reading this, I think AGR points usage needs to be much more restrictive, especially for sleepers. Offer only so many rooms per train, more or less depending on the season. Let’s face it, it’s more beneficial to have revenue passengers in rooms than people travelling on points; how many of these points are generated by Amtrak travel vs. the AGR credit card?
Granted, this is a very broad outline, but in general it is how I see the successful future of overnight rail travel in the US. Plus from an enthusiast standpoint wouldn’t you rather take more trips at a lower cost than more expensive trips in “first class?”
Granted, this is a very broad outline, but in general it is how I see the successful future of overnight rail travel in the US. Plus from an enthusiast standpoint wouldn’t you rather take more trips at a lower cost than more expensive trips in “first class?”
FormerOBS
Conductor
afigg, there is a bit of a false impression implicit (or explicit) in your observations. I need to clarify. The train has used 4 coaches up to now. The additional coach has already been added, for a total of 5. This means 17 cars, total. The maximum capacity of the electrical lines for head end Hotel Electric Power (HEP) in the summer is 16 cars because of the heavy demands for A/C. When one lounge is removed from the consist in mid-March, this will bring the consist down to the practical summertime maximum of 16 cars. There is no 6th coach. Sorry if I stated things in a confusing way. My answer was a bit convoluted.
I know many people don't think of Amtrak's service as first class. In part, that depends on the people delivering the service and Auto Train's people are among the very best. It should be remembered that passengers in need of special service due to physical disabilities are very numerous on AT because the clientele is primarily retirees.
I know many people don't think of Amtrak's service as first class. In part, that depends on the people delivering the service and Auto Train's people are among the very best. It should be remembered that passengers in need of special service due to physical disabilities are very numerous on AT because the clientele is primarily retirees.
Last edited by a moderator:
Just to clarify, at Amtrak's current pricing levels a premium service should be expected and provided; maybe Auto Train should retain this as it is the only Amtrak LH service that is profitable.
The Auto Train's functional capacity is presently about 500/train, at least before these adjustments. That comes to 1000/day or 365,000/year, assuming no cancellations. In FY13, the Auto Train carried 265,274 passengers, or about 72.7% of that amount. When you factor in the fact that traffic can get rather "asymmetrical" at peak season (i.e. more traffic going one way than the other due to snowbird migration), getting close to 75% is pretty dang good.
Likewise, YTD in FY14, there were 92 days in Oct-Dec, putting the theoretical cap at 92k riders. In that time, the Auto Train carried 63,946 riders, or 69.5% of capacity. Breaking that down further, in:
October: 19,615 of 31,000 (63.3%)
November: 20,389 of 30,000 (68.0%)
December: 23,942 of 31,000 (77.2%)
Considering that October is one of the worst months for LD trains (behind January and February as a rule), and that it's one of those "asymmetrical seasons", I think the Auto Train is doing about as well as can be hoped for in terms of load factors. As a result, I really can't blame Amtrak for wanting to drop one of the lounge cars. I would argue that they should at least try to set up a coach-lounge for the coach passengers due to the length of the walk (even at the cost of a dozen seats), but the train sells out often enough (and gets into high bucket range for coach often enough) that I can't blame Amtrak's decision-making.
Amtrak has desperately been looking for solutions for the Auto Train's capacity limits, including exploring setting up a power car to allow them to go over 18 passenger cars. However, until they can work out a solution on that front, this is the best they can do. It is far from great, but under the circumstances I kind of can't blame Amtrak.
Likewise, YTD in FY14, there were 92 days in Oct-Dec, putting the theoretical cap at 92k riders. In that time, the Auto Train carried 63,946 riders, or 69.5% of capacity. Breaking that down further, in:
October: 19,615 of 31,000 (63.3%)
November: 20,389 of 30,000 (68.0%)
December: 23,942 of 31,000 (77.2%)
Considering that October is one of the worst months for LD trains (behind January and February as a rule), and that it's one of those "asymmetrical seasons", I think the Auto Train is doing about as well as can be hoped for in terms of load factors. As a result, I really can't blame Amtrak for wanting to drop one of the lounge cars. I would argue that they should at least try to set up a coach-lounge for the coach passengers due to the length of the walk (even at the cost of a dozen seats), but the train sells out often enough (and gets into high bucket range for coach often enough) that I can't blame Amtrak's decision-making.
Amtrak has desperately been looking for solutions for the Auto Train's capacity limits, including exploring setting up a power car to allow them to go over 18 passenger cars. However, until they can work out a solution on that front, this is the best they can do. It is far from great, but under the circumstances I kind of can't blame Amtrak.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
They could quite easily solve the problem by running the train with a third engine running in-between the last passenger car and the first auto carrier, with it providing HEP for half the cars, and the second unit providing HEP for the other half. But this isn't really about capacity, its about downgrading costs.
Ok, so it is 5 coach cars that are already included in the available seat sales after mid-March. I should have added up the number of cars myself before posting.
battalion51
Engineer
Its not quite that simple. They'd either have to have a power car without traction motors or MU the entire train. You can't run an engine in the middle of the train without the Engineer having control of the engine brakes on that unit. DPU technology could be deployed for this, especially since Auto Train uses a captive fleet. However, with the power shortages the entire system is facing, allocating an additional two units to the AT pool won't happen anytime soon.
The reasoning used here for the cuts on other LD trains was that it would save jobs and/or routes. The amount that would be collected annually from 'pass rider fees' would be substantially more than the amount saved by cutting the wine and cheese from the other routes. (W & C costs $428k-source: OIG report) the 'pass rider fee' would bring in $586k according to this thread).
Wouldn't this save more jobs/routes?
Wouldn't this save more jobs/routes?
OlympianHiawatha
Engineer
Since I have never been on Auto Train can someone give a description to what the dedicated Lounge Cars are like. Thanks!
henryj
Conductor
I have always said Amtrak has bloated overhead. Finally someone agrees with me.
I think that is exactly where Amtrak is heading, except it will be with no change in Sleeper fares, or possibly even higher fares.
Same high Sleeper fare and you will have to pay full menu price for all your meals.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
MUing a dedicated fleet is not brain surgery.
Sounds like a job for one of the mothballed F40's slated for a Cabbage role. Replace the original Prime Mover with a GenSet for the purpose of providing HEP. You could even go as far as completely removing the cab if it made any different. No engine brakes or traction motors to worry about; it's just a "power car" at that point.
Of course, I know it would never be that simple. They'd spend millions having to draw up engineering plans, make cost analysis reports, perform the conversions, then have employees complain about them, go back to engineering, etc.
Ryan
Court Jester
FormerOBS
Conductor
Since mechanical/electrical issues are outside my area of expertise, I won't get into the HEP discussion.
Olympian Hi ---
When AT was converted to Superliners in the mid 1990's, there were not enough Sightseer Lounge cars available; and if there had been, they would not have been ideal for AT's purposes. Two cars were needed for each consist, plus one spare. Five old Superliner diners were converted to lounges in the AT's Sanford shop. These diners were essentially stripped. Since the dominant clientele was and is retirees, the lounge attendant's service counter was placed upstairs, in the middle of the car, next to the stairway. Once a passenger boards the train and goes upstairs, there is no need to return to the lower level until detraining next morning. One of the two food service elevators ("dumb waiters") was retained. The "B" end upstairs was fitted with lounge seats and tables. The "A" end upstairs was fitted with ten dining car tables and bench seats so that these tables could be available for overflow dinner and breakfast service. Obviously, the "A" end runs adjacent to the diner in both coach and sleeper sections. The new consist arrangement will make this a moot point since the one lounge will not have any spare room for dining car patrons, and new staffing levels will eliminate the one extra waiter who would have worked this section. Downstairs is a single restroom and two additional lounge areas flanking the door/stairway area. Until last summer, AT was the last train to allow onboard smoking. One of these lower level lounge areas was separated from the rest of the car by a partition and a door, and served as the ONLY designated smoking area. Smoke-eaters were installed there. The door has since been removed, but the windowed partition is still there. Since these are converted diners, there are no ceiling windows as you would find in a Sightseer lounge. Not many people miss the extra windows since the scenery is not spectacular and most of the route is covered in darkness anyway, especially in the winter.
From the outside, the upper level of these cars looks just like that of a Superliner diner. Unlike a diner, the lower level has windows for the lower level lounge areas.
When AT derailed at speed near Crescent City, FL about 13 years ago due to faulty track, one of the AT lounges was destroyed. To replace it, one Sightseer lounge was assigned as the extra lounge car to allow cars to be rotated in and out of the shop. This car received dining car tables on the "B" end upstairs, and still serves as the extra car.
This Sightseer car could probably be re-modified and return to service on some other Superliner train. As for the four remaining AT special lounges, two will be in service at all times. At least one will be needed as an extra. One would hope that the fourth car would be retained to guarantee that at least one extra car is available at all times in case of an unexpected car shortage.
I hope that answers it
Olympian Hi ---
When AT was converted to Superliners in the mid 1990's, there were not enough Sightseer Lounge cars available; and if there had been, they would not have been ideal for AT's purposes. Two cars were needed for each consist, plus one spare. Five old Superliner diners were converted to lounges in the AT's Sanford shop. These diners were essentially stripped. Since the dominant clientele was and is retirees, the lounge attendant's service counter was placed upstairs, in the middle of the car, next to the stairway. Once a passenger boards the train and goes upstairs, there is no need to return to the lower level until detraining next morning. One of the two food service elevators ("dumb waiters") was retained. The "B" end upstairs was fitted with lounge seats and tables. The "A" end upstairs was fitted with ten dining car tables and bench seats so that these tables could be available for overflow dinner and breakfast service. Obviously, the "A" end runs adjacent to the diner in both coach and sleeper sections. The new consist arrangement will make this a moot point since the one lounge will not have any spare room for dining car patrons, and new staffing levels will eliminate the one extra waiter who would have worked this section. Downstairs is a single restroom and two additional lounge areas flanking the door/stairway area. Until last summer, AT was the last train to allow onboard smoking. One of these lower level lounge areas was separated from the rest of the car by a partition and a door, and served as the ONLY designated smoking area. Smoke-eaters were installed there. The door has since been removed, but the windowed partition is still there. Since these are converted diners, there are no ceiling windows as you would find in a Sightseer lounge. Not many people miss the extra windows since the scenery is not spectacular and most of the route is covered in darkness anyway, especially in the winter.
From the outside, the upper level of these cars looks just like that of a Superliner diner. Unlike a diner, the lower level has windows for the lower level lounge areas.
When AT derailed at speed near Crescent City, FL about 13 years ago due to faulty track, one of the AT lounges was destroyed. To replace it, one Sightseer lounge was assigned as the extra lounge car to allow cars to be rotated in and out of the shop. This car received dining car tables on the "B" end upstairs, and still serves as the extra car.
This Sightseer car could probably be re-modified and return to service on some other Superliner train. As for the four remaining AT special lounges, two will be in service at all times. At least one will be needed as an extra. One would hope that the fourth car would be retained to guarantee that at least one extra car is available at all times in case of an unexpected car shortage.
I hope that answers it
OlympianHiawatha
Engineer
Thanks! I knew they were converted from Superliner 1 Diners but was curious how the seating was configured.
Dovecote
OBS Chief
Former OBS---Thanks for the history lesson on the AT lounge cars. It was quite informative.
trainviews
Service Attendant
First I have to say that I've never taken the auto train and probably never will (no car and not living in the US...). I'm also not an "all trains have to make a profit" guy and am happy with subsidies when needed.
But - if you have a very long train that runs close to 75 percent full, and it still doesn't make money - then you're doing something wrong! And I'm not talking about avoidable costs or before overhead here. If you count that the AT is above water, but a train running this well - it has to make enough money that it also pays it's share of general company expenses. I think that is a political reality as well as common sense. Subsidies has to be spent on services that needs them.
There's basically only two ways of doing this - save on costs or raise prices. Both of them have a limit before you start to turn so many customers away that your price hike/service cut will work in reverse.
Now, if you had to start a new auto train from scratch which service level would you go for? Why will people buy tickets for the train and at what price? Most of the LD's have some element of travel experience as an important draw for at least a part of the passengers. The Auto Train not so much. It is primarily a way to transport yourself and your car from the Northeast to Florida and back in a relatively comfortable way.
So I would say the basics of the service is: Reasonably comfortable seats and rooms, cleanliness, decent food which doesn't have to be high cuisine, but has to be over micronuke level and staff which sees to this is delivered in a hospitable manner, actually cares if something is lacking and are able to help passengers with special needs.
Beyond that I think you have to be careful with your costs. People like amenities, but it's not why they are buying their tickets. A small wellplaced amount of them might make them come back a little more often.
As for the concrete cuts: The extra coach instead of a lounge car is regrettable if one lounge lacks capacity - but given the constraints on the length of the train it's probably a tradeoff worth making. Not selling a car load of tickets leave an awful lot of money on the table. As for the rest - well china is nice, but it really matters more what's on the plate. Charging for wine is a good idea (charging for food probably woudn't be but that is another discussion) and the tasting is not what makes people take the train.
But all this is my gut feeling. I sincerely hope Amtrak is basing these service changes on solid market reseach and not just guessing. And if this can help push the AT towards being truly profitable it's worth it.
But - if you have a very long train that runs close to 75 percent full, and it still doesn't make money - then you're doing something wrong! And I'm not talking about avoidable costs or before overhead here. If you count that the AT is above water, but a train running this well - it has to make enough money that it also pays it's share of general company expenses. I think that is a political reality as well as common sense. Subsidies has to be spent on services that needs them.
There's basically only two ways of doing this - save on costs or raise prices. Both of them have a limit before you start to turn so many customers away that your price hike/service cut will work in reverse.
Now, if you had to start a new auto train from scratch which service level would you go for? Why will people buy tickets for the train and at what price? Most of the LD's have some element of travel experience as an important draw for at least a part of the passengers. The Auto Train not so much. It is primarily a way to transport yourself and your car from the Northeast to Florida and back in a relatively comfortable way.
So I would say the basics of the service is: Reasonably comfortable seats and rooms, cleanliness, decent food which doesn't have to be high cuisine, but has to be over micronuke level and staff which sees to this is delivered in a hospitable manner, actually cares if something is lacking and are able to help passengers with special needs.
Beyond that I think you have to be careful with your costs. People like amenities, but it's not why they are buying their tickets. A small wellplaced amount of them might make them come back a little more often.
As for the concrete cuts: The extra coach instead of a lounge car is regrettable if one lounge lacks capacity - but given the constraints on the length of the train it's probably a tradeoff worth making. Not selling a car load of tickets leave an awful lot of money on the table. As for the rest - well china is nice, but it really matters more what's on the plate. Charging for wine is a good idea (charging for food probably woudn't be but that is another discussion) and the tasting is not what makes people take the train.
But all this is my gut feeling. I sincerely hope Amtrak is basing these service changes on solid market reseach and not just guessing. And if this can help push the AT towards being truly profitable it's worth it.
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2010
- Messages
- 4,888
Amtrak's service is NOT first Class. Some individuals on Amtrak provide excellent service but Amtrak does not. Amtrak is like a nice restaurant where you go in one day and have a fabulous waitress and the next time some don't-care waiter is serving you. A good restaurant would NEVER allow that to happen. Similarly, Amtrak should not allow it. Since they do, they are NOT providing first class service unlike VIA which apparently from what people say does.
The blame falls squarely on management. To paraphrase an old Ford ad "Quality should be Job 1". It is not even Job 10.
- Status
Latest posts
-
-
-
LA Metro Rail crashes with USC Bus - 55 Injured
- Latest: moosejunky99
-
-
-
-
-
