Amtrak trains to get 180 day notices after July 1s

[Guest_guest]

bnsf, you know much more about this than i do but i thought the presumed savings from diner lite(short sighted though it is)would satisfy the congressional mandate.

Nope it included anything that would bring the costs down.

Can you provide the bill number and the exact quote in a piece of passed and signed legislation (such that it can be searched at http://thomas.loc.gov ) that says everything is subject to cancellation?

H.R.4214.IH, Sec. 3. Not sure if that's what you're looking for, but, it states it clearly in black and white, that service will be discontinued.

 

[Sam Damon]

Can you provide the bill number and the exact quote in a piece of passed and signed legislation (such that it can be searched at http://thomas.loc.gov ) that says everything is subject to cancellation?

H.R.4214.IH, Sec. 3. Not sure if that's what you're looking for, but, it states it clearly in black and white, that service will be discontinued.

As far as I can determine, that bill is still in committee. Nowhere near being passed by the House and Senate, much less signed.

That's the drift I get. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Where's Rafi when we need him?

 

[Chi_Train_Fan]

H.R.4214.IH, Sec. 3. Not sure if that's what you're looking for, but, it states it clearly in black and white, that service will be discontinued.

That resolution did not become law. It is irrelevant.

-David Z

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

This was all tied into the FY 2006 budget.And there is nothing that states that trains would come off it states however costs can be saved congress never put what could be cut they left that up Amtrak and we know who is running Amtrak at the present time and there was nothing protecting the trains from being cut they found a loop hole and are using it.

It is all tied in with the diner lite issue it was just taken a step ahead to Kill Amtrak right off like i said the Bush Admin found a loop hole.

 

[Everydaymatters]

I'm absolutely dumbfounded. It's not that I don't believe it could happen, I just find it very hard to believe the the government would leave us without western rail transportation.

Seems there's always a last-minute reprieve when something major happens to Amtrak. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[caravanman]

I would have thought another line of defence against any cuts would be to ensure that all the towns and cities affected by proposals are made fully aware...I am thinking email editors of local papers, tourist offices, (...I am thinking to visit your town but I see the train won't be stopping there...etc, etc.)

I imagine New Orleans would be especialy upset by withdrawal of two trains, when they need to regenerate.

It is important not to cry wolf, if we make a fuss too early, and our info is wrong, then there is a good chance of being disbelieved next time..on the other hand 180 days isn't long to overturn a govt. decision.

Ed. B)

 

[Rafi]

I can't speak to the validity of BNSF's report (time will tell, obviously), but I can tell you this. When I had dinner with Hughes on April 30—a completely off-the-record conversation on both sides of the table—he assured me that as long as he was on watch, "nothing drastic, like cutting multiple routes at one time" was going to happen. Instead, he said the only thing on the chopping block, so to speak, are diners and sleepers because of the new "break even" legislation on those services, and even in those cases, he had a good handle on how to approach those situations without losing the services.

Now, unless something has changed between now and then, I can't see how Hughes would let this happen without going out to the media and NARP to drum up congressional support. In fact, his entire leadership theory is to open communication between Amtrak and the public as a whole. When a route is in danger, his intention is—or at least was—to use all available PR resources to get the congressional support to keep it. Again, we'll know in a week, but the idea that Hughes is going to issue a 180 notice on every connection between Chicago and the west coast, along with the City and a Crescent curtailment—all without any prior "last chance" appeal—is a very big pill to swallow.

-Rafi

 

[x-press]

Ooooooookay, I'll play.

Let's get this latest rumor straight:

They are (supposedly) discontinuing:

- Sunset Limited (which makes sense, since it's a disastrously unreliable train that serves as nothing but a national laughingstock, hurting useful long distance trains).

- California Zephyr (a popular train serving major population centers, though with major reliability issues once it gets on UP . . . tough one)

- Empire Builder and Southwest Chief (huh? Two highly reliable trains, one of which they just spent big bucks refurbishing, and the other they just re-trained everybody for diner-lite?!)

- City of New Orleans (Don't know much about this route, but New Orleans just may not have the population to support much (if any) train service at this point). Note how many of the trains cut terminate at, or go through New Orleans. Probably not coincidence. Not Amtrak's fault, but they have to react, right?

Now, just in case you're an anti-rail zealot and this all makes perfect sense to you, let's note which trains they're NOT cutting:

- Cardinal: A meandering, slow, unreliable train New York-Chicago that barely has enough equipment available to run a sleeper.

- Coast Starlight: Reliability's a catastrophe, parlor cars are falling apart.

I WISH the anti-Amtrak folks would try to cut the network this way! Because if they did, they'd be DOOMED to fail! You'd have almost every congressman west of the Mississippi aligned against you (and you already have most of them east of the Mississippi up in arms, note the "blue state" concentration). You'd create national, even international headlines screaming that 70% of the country was losing its rail service.

Not to give them any free advice, but if they really want to get rid of Amtrak long distance trains, take the "Three Rivers" approach. Kill off an underperforming train once in a while, cite operational problems, low ridership, offer to slightly improve food service on other trains (since that's all railfans apparently care about any more).

This rumor has, at best, been passed down through so many people before reaching us, that even if there is some truth to it, it's likely been warped beyond recognition.

Look, there may well be some changes coming July 1. Can you argue that they're not needed? Is the Sunset doing anything other than giving Vranich something to whine about? I understand it's a good, useful route, but what's the point if it's so unreliable? A New York-Atlanta train would be GREAT! The reliability of the Crescent on that stretch is superb! Shortening the Zephyr to Denver-CHI would be worth a try, too, as I believe it's much more punctual along that stretch, and Chicago-West Coast passengers have other options.

If trains 3-8 are really on the block this Saturday, I'll be first in line to raise hell (especially if they are totally cut and not just truncated to more pragmatic overnight routes). Still, I really, really have my doubts.

JPS

 

[AlanB]

Now, just in case you're an anti-rail zealot and this all makes perfect sense to you, let's note which trains they're NOT cutting:
- Cardinal: A meandering, slow, unreliable train New York-Chicago that barely has enough equipment available to run a sleeper.

The Cardinal can't be cut, at least so long as Amtrak exists as a corporation. Senator Byrd got legislation passed years ago requiring Amtrak to run that train. Amtrak can't get out of that, unless they go belly up or get Congress to change the law.

 

[Alan]

The Cardinal can't be cut, at least so long as Amtrak exists as a corporation.  Senator Byrd got legislation passed years ago requiring Amtrak to run that train.  Amtrak can't get out of that, unless they go belly up or get Congress to change the law.

Interesting historical note:

On A-Day (5/1/71) there was no thru train on the route.

The original routes were Newport News/DC - Cincinnati and Cincinnati - Chicago. The original trains were the overnight George Washington and the Cincinnati - Chicago daytime round trip James Whitcomb Riley with no eastbound connection !

 

[Guest_George Harris]

On A-Day (5/1/71) there was no thru train on the route.The original routes were Newport News/DC - Cincinnati and Cincinnati - Chicago. The original trains were the overnight George Washington and the Cincinnati - Chicago daytime round trip James Whitcomb Riley with no eastbound connection !

This is not correct. That was the pre-Amtrak situation. With Amtrak, they were made into one through train. For a while it carried the James Whitcomb Riley name in one direction and the George Washington in the other. It actually carried through cars to both Newport News and Washington DC, with the train being split at C&O's station in Charlottesville, VA, which was not the same as the Southern Railway station. The Newport News car was a dome, plus a coach or snack bar car was added at Charlottesville. Really don't recall exactly at this point.

I rode this train in early December 1971 from Chicago to Washington. At that time thanks to the Penn Central falling apart, much of the run across Indiana was at 25 mph, getting into Cincinatti about 2 hours late. But, when we got to Cincinatti, the Chessie ran it like it ought to be run.

 

[minstrel]

I apologize if this has been asked before but I am just getting started with my LD train travel obsession. I have reservations from Houston to LA on SL over Christmas. If what you are saying is true there might not be a SL around on Christmas. I am sure Amtrak would refund the fare, but it would be just another trip without the train. Should I be making alternate plans?

 

[Sam Damon]

I can't speak to the validity of BNSF's report (time will tell, obviously), but I can tell you this.

Thank you for injecting a badly needed dose of sanity into this thread. I think we need to know where the "panic button" is, but at this point, I don't think it needs pressed.

Given the nature of off-the-record conversations with sources, I certainly think you've told us what you could tell from that particular one without breaking your word. Thanks for chiming in.

BNSF, you're going to have to come up with some better, verifiable sources. If I were you, or Trainboy, I'd PM the phone numbers to Rafi -- I don't think he got the job he has by not using discretion appropriately -- and let him break the story if it's true. I'm not saying your story's false; I am saying that to believe you fully, I'd like to see some more solid evidence, even on an internet BB like this one. Rafi's in a position to set the tone for coverage in this matter, and I believe he would set a fair and objective tone. We will certainly see what happens July 3d. The premise for making the announcement that day is perfectly valid -- given this year's calendar, it's a good day to bury an unpleasant story.

 

[AmtrakFan]

This does NOT surprise me ONE BIT! We have gotton warning thanks to several members and it will only get worse from here.

 

[Boxcar]

I apologize if this has been asked before but I am just getting started with my LD train travel obsession. I have reservations from Houston to LA on SL over Christmas. If what you are saying is true there might not be a SL around on Christmas. I am sure Amtrak would refund the fare, but it would be just another trip without the train. Should I be making alternate plans?

It's possible but I would't scrap the train travel part as yet. As Sam said,"I think we need to know where the "panic button" is, but at this point, I don't think it needs pressed."

It has long been the speculation that the Sunset Limited would be the first to go and It may well be but it would really create a problem for people like you and I that live in Texas or the deep South that wish to travel to Southern California. Without the Sunset you would have to take the Amtrak thruway(Bus) from Houston to Longview to connect to the Texas Eagle or somehow catch it in San Antonio and go up to Chicago, connect to the Southwest Chief, and come all the way back down through New Mexico and Arizona to LA. I live in Lubbock and usually catch the Eagle out of Austin which is close to 400 miles if I want to go North or the SW Chief out of Lamy, NM near Albuquerque, NM.(another 350 miles if I wish to go to LA.)

Either way...nearly all passengers in the South that wish to go to LA will have to pass through Chicago some way.....

 

[TransAtlantic]

...or perhaps they'll just keep running the Texas Eagle as a through train 3 days a week, as it currently is (albeit attached to the SL)...I don't think the governors and senators/representatives from Texas, New Mexico and Arizona want to see small-town rail service curtailed in their states, and I can assure you (she sent me a PERSONALIZED e-mail) that Barbara Boxer will never allow rail service to be cut in California without a MAJOR stink!!

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

look i am going to lay this on the line people

4 months ago when i posted about station and train offs and you all said nothing was happining well this is the 2nd time around with this same issue they let it cool off before going behind closed doors again and getting this going again.

As far as names that you want you won't get them because i will not let any employee get fired which will happen to any employee that says anything about what is going on.

This information was never to be made public until the 180 day notices come out just like 4 months ago when i put a stop to it.

 

[GP35]

Bush and Amtrak both wanted states to join the funding at 80/20. This was the main reason behind last year zero funding. I think this is nothing more than a ploy to get states involved by pissing off the public.

 

[Boxcar]

...or perhaps they'll just keep running the Texas Eagle as a through train 3 days a week, as it currently is (albeit attached to the SL)...I don't think the governors and senators/representatives from Texas, New Mexico and Arizona want to see small-town rail service curtailed in their states, and I can assure you (she sent me a PERSONALIZED e-mail) that Barbara Boxer will never allow rail service to be cut in California without a MAJOR stink!!

The trouble with that is with the Sunset Limited gone, New Mexico, Southern Arizona and California will still be serviced by The SW Chief to the point it wouldn't be as missed as it would be to the points east of New Mexico. At least my Texas Senators and Congressmen are supporting Amtrak but what pull if any they have on George W I don't know.

Too run the Texas Eagle on through 3 days a week would be the same as the Sunset now runs and would not accomplish anything as I see....BD

 

[GP35]

Think about it, the LD trains cost about $400 million per year. A drop in the bucket in our multi-trillion dollar economy. Would Bush risk outrage from the public and Republicans before an election to gain nothing. If anything is annouced, we will see a few days of outrage before a deal with states funding 20% is reached. Then you will see new serves popping up everywhere.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

Think about it, the LD trains cost about $400 million per year. A drop in the bucket in our multi-trillion dollar economy. Would Bush risk outrage from the public and Republicans before an election to gain nothing. If anything is annouced, we will see a few days of outrage before a deal with states funding 20% is reached. Then you will see new serves popping up everywhere.

The States are broke and can't pay to take over service

 

[Boxcar]

Think about it, the LD trains cost about $400 million per year. A drop in the bucket in our multi-trillion dollar economy. Would Bush risk outrage from the public and Republicans before an election to gain nothing. If anything is annouced, we will see a few days of outrage before a deal with states funding 20% is reached. Then you will see new serves popping up everywhere.

I just read where Congress is to start voting on the 2007 Defense bill of $460 (some odd ) Billion. Maybe we can work a deal for a few billion for Amtrak to pull a couple of cars of Humvee's or Bradley's from point to point. <_<

The States are broke and can't pay to take over service

True to a point but they seem to find money for medical and schooling for illegals.

 

[PennCentralFan]

Don't underestimate the hatred Bush, the NeoCons, the airline industry, trucking companies and their allies in Big Oil have for Amtrak and all forms of public transportation.

The Bush Dynasty was built on Big Oil. Read the latest book by Kevin Phillips. Wake Up! We go to war in Iraq and then Oil companies reap record profits. Public transportation is the antithesis of Big Oil and the airlines.

 

[Guest]

it looks to me that the anti-rail execs that Bush has appointed to the Amtrak board are trying to kiss up to top brass in the Bush Administration by proposing unrealistic cuts like this, more than anything else(why else would the EB and the CZ be on this list?). personally, to me this unrealistic cut list is pretty much nothing more than a backdoor way to dismantle Amtrak service in rural areas of the country, and was probably proposed to impress insider policy wonks within the Bush Administration.

i'm gonna side with the minority here and say that I don't think those trains are gonna disappear, especially since i believe there are enough pro-Amtrak senators and Congressmen that'll fight like hell to override any proposed Amtrak cuts. plus, i doubt the successful budgetary amendment that restored something like $200 to $400 million to Amtrak's budget a week or 2 ago(upping it from $900 million to $1.3 billion) was the last shot fired on this issue, as i'm anticipating that hopefully it can be raised at least slightly more.

that all said, i agree that we shouldn't cry wolf over train eliminations just yet. however, we will need to be much more proactive than we have in previous summers, and write to as many Congressmen and U.S. Senators as we can, explaining how important Amtrak is to so many citizens in this country, urban or rural, poor or rich. i know i'm gonna write to my local Congressman, my Senators, and even to Senators in other states(especially nearby ones) stating the importance of intercity transportation. its a no-brainer why Amtrak needs to be allowed to continue its operations nationwide(even including its cross-border services to Canada)!

and a question for BNSF: would the San Antonio to Los Angeles portion of the Sunset Limited be eliminated by these cuts? i was reading through the cuts that were posted, and it didn't state whether that portion of the Texas Eagle/SL would remain or not. or would these cuts mean that the Texas Eagle would now trunciate in San Antonio, instead of LA 3 days a week(with no more through-car service to there)?

 

[PRR 60]

look i am going to lay this on the line people
4 months ago when i posted about station and train offs and you all said nothing was happining well this is the 2nd time around with this same issue they let it cool off before going behind closed doors again and getting this going again.

As far as names that you want you won't get them because i will not let any employee get fired which will happen to any employee that says anything about what is going on.

This information was never to be made public until the 180 day notices come out just like 4 months ago when i put a stop to it.

As I said before, unless you know someone on the Board who is leaking information directly to you, how would you know anything about what the Board is discussing or has decided? There is no one to be fired because no one outside DC knows about the Board's plans (and, if all the trains are cut, won't they be fired anyway?).

If the Amtrak Board is so malicious and wants so badly to kill Amtrak, why would the Board tell anyone outside their little circle about anything? Wouldn't they keep their vicious plans to themselves and drop the bomb when it was least expected? There is no way this would leak to a freight railroad employee in Louisiana. So, if that makes sense (and it does), how would you find out about the dirty secret from inside the Amtrak Board Room?

Quite frankly, the track record of your dire warnings having any factual basis has been less than impressive. So far, not one has come to fruition. But, even if you are right and all kinds of trains are being cut on July 3rd, or July 30th, or a month from next year, there will still 180 days to ponder the proposal and make changes if that makes sense. But, until such time as there is factual information posted from an authoritative source, rumor mongering is simply rumor mongering: nothing more and nothing less. You are doing no one any favors posting rumors as facts and then declining to provide any semblance of substantiation.