Amtrak heritage cars retirement thread

[CCC1007]

They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.

OK, I guess derailment/rerailment doesn't differ too much from one piece of rolling stock to the next. I'd think the parts would be *wildly* different from modern cars, though. Are there really enough parts similarities to make them useful for that? This Surprises Me.

A coupler is a coupler, and an air hose is an air hose. These parts haven't changed much in about a century.

 

[neroden]

Updated list. Probably still inaccurate. I'm still wondering about #1260.

Former baggage cars believed to be in passenger service:

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1159, 1161, 1164, 1241, 1247, 1248* (probably soon to go)

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:

1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster) -- is this really in service? OTOL doesn't think so

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1230

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1709, 1760

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:

1702-1703, 1710, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761,

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1751

1752 (now "training car")

1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1730-1731, 1733, 1735, 1738, 1757

(addition to original list) "Training cars" (origin unknown):

1762, 1232, 1231

-----------

Dining cars believed still in service:

1946 NYC Budd:

8553 -- NY Central 452, Penn Central 4552 -- built Budd 1946, "grill" conversion 1980s

1948 NYC Budd:

8512 -- NY Central 463, Penn Central 4563 -- built Budd 1948 as "grill lounge", quirky non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

1948 CB&Q Budd:

8551 -- CB&Q 194 "Silver Diner" -- built Budd 1948, "grill" conversion 1987, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8504 -- CB&Q 195 "Silver Restaurant"-- appears to be sister car to 8551 (it's an educated guess that this is the build date), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8510 -- CB&Q 193 "Silver Cafe" -- (Dailey says built Budd 1958 but I think it's a typo), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1948/1949 Southern Budd:

8524 -- Southern 3309 -- built Budd 1948

8521 -- Southern 3306 -- built Budd 1949

8558 -- Southern 3307 -- built Budd 1949, "grill" in 1980s

1950 CB&Q Budd:

8502 -- "Silver Cuisine" CB&Q 198 -- built Budd 1950

1950 Southern Pacific Budd:

8528 -- Southern Pacific 10213 -- built Budd 1950

8559 -- Southern Pacific 10210 -- built Budd 1950, "grill" in 1980s

8527 -- Southern Pacific 10212 -- built Budd 1950, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1951 Pennsy former Parlor Car:

8530 -- Pennsylvania Railroad 7143 "Molly Pitcher", Penn Central 7143 -- built Budd 1951 as "parlor car", converted to "galley lounge" in 1973, "cafeteria car" in 1983, Temoinsa rebuild in 2000. Whew. n

1956 CB&Q Budd former coaches:

8531 -- CB&Q 4737 "Silver Bit" -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted to dining car 1971, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8532 -- CB&Q 4739 -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted in 1970s to cafeteria car, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1957/1958 GN and NP Budd:

8550 -- Burlington Northern 1296 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

8552 -- Northern Pacific 461 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8505 -- Northern Pacific 458, later 462 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8507 -- Northern Pacific 463 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8509 -- Northern Pacific 459 or 460 (Dailey says CB&Q was also involved)-- built Budd 1958

Information from OTOL and Geno Dailey's page (http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/locoshots/heritagediner/HERITAGEDINER.html), plus some comments at various forums.

----

So the very oldest car is #8554 from the NYC, built in 1946.

The oldest cars which seem to have no major modifications are probably #8521 and #8524 -- potential museum candidates?

The ones with the most conversions over their lives are the 1951 Pennsy Parlor Car and the 1956 CB&Q coaches.

 

[neroden]

They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.

OK, I guess derailment/rerailment doesn't differ too much from one piece of rolling stock to the next. I'd think the parts would be *wildly* different from modern cars, though. Are there really enough parts similarities to make them useful for that? This Surprises Me.

A coupler is a coupler, and an air hose is an air hose. These parts haven't changed much in about a century.

Aha. That makes sense. Even if these did originally have different parts -- and they might have -- they would have been retrofitted for compatibility at some point anyway.
(Worth noting: although the Janney coupler is from the 19th century, one of the dining cars actually predates the type H tightlock coupler which was only standardized in 1947. I haven't found detail on the history of air hose connectors, but I strongly suspect they've been changed too -- but the 1950s hoses would have died of rubber fatigue and been replaced in the meantime anyway.)

 

[Thirdrail7]

Updated list. Probably still inaccurate. I'm still wondering about #1260.

Former baggage cars believed to be in passenger service:

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1159, 1161, 1164, 1241, 1247, 1248* (probably soon to go)

The list still accurate. The 1260 is indeed active, being used as a rider car as recently as Friday. The 1248, still lingers in limbo. It hasn't been officially retired, but it hasn't been used in years.

They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.

OK, I guess derailment/rerailment doesn't differ too much from one piece of rolling stock to the next. I'd think the parts would be *wildly* different from modern cars, though. Are there really enough parts similarities to make them useful for that? This Surprises Me.

A coupler is a coupler, and an air hose is an air hose. These parts haven't changed much in about a century.

Aha. That makes sense. Even if these did originally have different parts -- and they might have -- they would have been retrofitted for compatibility at some point anyway.
(Worth noting: although the Janney coupler is from the 19th century, one of the dining cars actually predates the type H tightlock coupler which was only standardized in 1947. I haven't found detail on the history of air hose connectors, but I strongly suspect they've been changed too -- but the 1950s hoses would have died of rubber fatigue and been replaced in the meantime anyway.)

Additionally, the electrical components in terms of HEP are pretty much the same. Changing a 480 cable on this and cutting out the actual trucks are quite similar to a Horizon coach.

 

[Thirdrail7]

This looks a lot better to me:

Updated list. Probably still inaccurate. I'm still wondering about #1260.

Former baggage cars believed to be in passenger service:
1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1159, 1161, 1164, 1241, 1248* (probably soon to go)

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:
1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster) -- is this really in service? OTOL doesn't think so

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1230

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1709

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:
1702-1703, 1710, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761,

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1751
1752 (now "training car")
1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1730-1731, 1733, 1735, 1738

(addition to original list) "Training cars" (origin unknown):
1762, 1232, 1231

-----------
Dining cars believed still in service:

1946 NYC Budd:
8553 -- NY Central 452, Penn Central 4552 -- built Budd 1946, "grill" conversion 1980s

1948 NYC Budd:
8512 -- NY Central 463, Penn Central 4563 -- built Budd 1948 as "grill lounge", quirky non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

1948 CB&Q Budd:
8510 -- CB&Q 193 "Silver Cafe" -- (Dailey says built Budd 1958 but I think it's a typo), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s


1950 Southern Pacific Budd:
8527 -- Southern Pacific 10212 -- built Budd 1950, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1951 Pennsy former Parlor Car:
8530 -- Pennsylvania Railroad 7143 "Molly Pitcher", Penn Central 7143 -- built Budd 1951 as "parlor car", converted to "galley lounge" in 1973, "cafeteria car" in 1983, Temoinsa rebuild in 2000. Whew. n

1956 CB&Q Budd former coaches:
8531 -- CB&Q 4737 "Silver Bit" -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted to dining car 1971, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8532 -- CB&Q 4739 -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted in 1970s to cafeteria car, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1957/1958 GN and NP Budd:
8550 -- Burlington Northern 1296 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s
8505 -- Northern Pacific 458, later 462 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8507 -- Northern Pacific 463 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8509 -- Northern Pacific 459 or 460 (Dailey says CB&Q was also involved)-- built Budd 1958

Information from OTOL and Geno Dailey's page (http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/locoshots/heritagediner/HERITAGEDINER.html), plus some comments at various forums.

----
So the very oldest car is #8554 from the NYC, built in 1946.
The oldest cars which seem to have no major modifications are probably #8521 and #8524 -- potential museum candidates?
The ones with the most conversions over their lives are the 1951 Pennsy Parlor Car and the 1956 CB&Q coaches.

As mentioned in the Where are all the dining cars going? thread, it is unlikely you will see the 8502, 8504, 8551,8552 or the 8558 in revenue service again. T

 

[gmo1515]

1948/1949 Southern Budd:

8524 -- Southern 3309 -- built Budd 1948

8521 -- Southern 3306 -- built Budd 1949

8558 -- Southern 3307 -- built Budd 1949, "grill" in 1980s

I wonder if one of these cars might be a good grab for someone like TVRM? Strip the striping off, put some Southern lettering back on it and you're in business (of course I know its not that simple, but hey...).

-Jason

 

[neroden]

1948/1949 Southern Budd:

8524 -- Southern 3309 -- built Budd 1948

8521 -- Southern 3306 -- built Budd 1949

8558 -- Southern 3307 -- built Budd 1949, "grill" in 1980s

I wonder if one of these cars might be a good grab for someone like TVRM? Strip the striping off, put some Southern lettering back on it and you're in business (of course I know its not that simple, but hey...).

-Jason

Given their decrepit state, it would be wisest for a museum to buy all three and attempt to build one good car out of the combination!

 

[KnightRail]

The list with some strikes

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1159

1161

1164

1241

1248**

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:

1260

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1230

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1709

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:

1702

1703

1710

1714

1716

1717

1750

1761

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1751

1752*

1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1730

1731*

1733

1735

1738

* 'Training cars' including 1762, 1232

-----------

Dining cars:

1946 NYC Budd:

8553 -- NY Central 452, Penn Central 4552 -- built Budd 1946, "grill" conversion 1980s

1948 NYC Budd:

8512 -- NY Central 463, Penn Central 4563 -- built Budd 1948 as "grill lounge", quirky non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

1948 CB&Q Budd:

8510 -- CB&Q 193 "Silver Cafe" -- (Dailey says built Budd 1958 but I think it's a typo), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1950 Southern Pacific Budd:

8527 -- Southern Pacific 10212 -- built Budd 1950, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1951 Pennsy former Parlor Car:

8530 -- Pennsylvania Railroad 7143 "Molly Pitcher", Penn Central 7143 -- built Budd 1951 as "parlor car", converted to "galley lounge" in 1973, "cafeteria car" in 1983, Temoinsa rebuild in 2000. Whew. n

1956 CB&Q Budd former coaches:

8531 -- CB&Q 4737 "Silver Bit" -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted to dining car 1971, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8532 -- CB&Q 4739 -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted in 1970s to cafeteria car, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1957/1958 GN and NP Budd:

8550 -- Burlington Northern 1296 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

8505 -- Northern Pacific 458, later 462 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8507 -- Northern Pacific 463 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8509 -- Northern Pacific 459 or 460 (Dailey says CB&Q was also involved)-- built Budd 1958

Information from OTOL and Geno Dailey's page (http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/locoshots/heritagediner/HERITAGEDINER.html), plus some comments at various forums.

Reclassified for Maintenance of Way:1231, 1237, 1705

 

[Thirdrail7]

Let's make some updates to this list, shall we?

The list with some strikes

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1159
1161
1164
1241
1248**

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:
1260

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1230

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1709

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:
1702
1703
1710
1714
1716
1717
1750
1761

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1751
1752*
1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1730
1731*
1733
1735
1738

* 'Training cars' including 1762, 1232

-----------

Reclassified for Maintenance of Way:
1231, 1237, 1705

This is current reflection of what is in revenue service:

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1159
1248**

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:

1714
1750
1761

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1751
1752*
1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1730
1731*


* 'Training cars' including 1762, 1232

 

[Seaboard92]

Can I ask a dumb question. What are the training cars used for? I'm assuming a class room.

 

[Seaboard92]

Can I ask a dumb question. What are the training cars used for? I'm assuming a class room.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Can I ask a dumb question. What are the training cars used for? I'm assuming a class room.

Without having seen the insides of one, I do believe you are correct. Airlines use the interiors of various planes (often constructed as part of a "brick and mortar" classroom) in their fleets to train FAs and others on, as that presents a more accurate setting, especially in dimensions, of the work environment. This is especially critical in safety training.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Can I ask a dumb question. What are the training cars used for? I'm assuming a class room.

Without having seen the insides of one, I do believe you are correct. Airlines use the interiors of various planes (often constructed as part of a "brick and mortar" classroom) in their fleets to train FAs and others on, as that presents a more accurate setting, especially in dimensions, of the work environment. This is especially critical in safety training.

From this very thread:

Thanks, updated.

If you don't mind my asking, what the heck is a training car? What are they used for training? I'd think that everything about them would be so different from the active cars that they wouldn't be useful for training people on how to operate or maintain the active cars... ???

Thanks, updated.

If you don't mind my asking, what the heck is a training car? What are they used for training? I'd think that everything about them would be so different from the active cars that they wouldn't be useful for training people on how to operate or maintain the active cars... ???

They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.

They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.

OK, I guess derailment/rerailment doesn't differ too much from one piece of rolling stock to the next. I'd think the parts would be *wildly* different from modern cars, though. Are there really enough parts similarities to make them useful for that? This Surprises Me.

A coupler is a coupler, and an air hose is an air hose. These parts haven't changed much in about a century.

Aha. That makes sense. Even if these did originally have different parts -- and they might have -- they would have been retrofitted for compatibility at some point anyway.
(Worth noting: although the Janney coupler is from the 19th century, one of the dining cars actually predates the type H tightlock coupler which was only standardized in 1947. I haven't found detail on the history of air hose connectors, but I strongly suspect they've been changed too -- but the 1950s hoses would have died of rubber fatigue and been replaced in the meantime anyway.)

Additionally, the electrical components in terms of HEP are pretty much the same. Changing a 480 cable on this and cutting out the actual trucks are quite similar to a Horizon coach.

 

[Thirdrail7]

...and then there were 9. The 1750 is out of the running. I expect a few more to follow. Get your pictures while you can.

 

[KnightRail]

Surprising given the current need of axle count cars

 

[Thirdrail7]

Surprising given the current need of axle count cars

Indeed...you can disregard me previous message. I figured it out after staring at your post, seeing the alert about the "temporary reversion" and checking 316.

Thanks.

 

[KnightRail]

Only about four bags remain...for now, 1750, 1751, 1753, & 1761

Their number should actually be increasing as many arise from the deadlines needed to meet the increased axle count demand. The 1700s are not ready to ride off into the sunset just yet.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Only about four bags remain...for now, 1750, 1751, 1753, & 1761

Their number should actually be increasing as many arise from the deadlines needed to meet the increased axle count demand. The 1700s are not ready to ride off into the sunset just yet.

What a waste of the 10031. I can think of a few more uses for these bags, particularly when it comes to power moves. I guess someone decided it wasn't worth the costs.

 

[rtabern]

Only about four bags remain...for now, 1750, 1751, 1753, & 1761

Their number should actually be increasing as many arise from the deadlines needed to meet the increased axle count demand. The 1700s are not ready to ride off into the sunset just yet.

What a waste of the 10031. I can think of a few more uses for these bags, particularly when it comes to power moves. I guess someone decided it wasn't worth the costs.

Is 10031 still running as an axle count car to Carbondale... closed to the public?

That is horrible! There has to be other cars available besides one of the oldest cars in your fleet and the best observation car. Who makes these decisions?? Then when they really need it and advertise it on a run its pulled for emergency wheel repairs or something.

If they need it for an axle count car then fine... atleast open it up for people to enjoy for crying out loud!

My support for Amtrak and its bone head moves continue to dwindle. 10 years ago I would use almost all my vacation time to ride trains. Maybe did 15-20 nights a year in a sleeper. This year... 2.

 

[ScouseAndy]

Sorry if this has been covered before but why do some trains need an axle count? As a Brit we have single car DMUs running on 4 axles which have no issues triggering automatic signals and crossings etc

 

[jis]

Sorry if this has been covered before but why do some trains need an axle count? As a Brit we have single car DMUs running on 4 axles which have no issues triggering automatic signals and crossings etc

Because CN apparently cannot get their signaling system to detect anything with less than their specified (large) number of axles.

 

[PRR 60]

Sorry if this has been covered before but why do some trains need an axle count? As a Brit we have single car DMUs running on 4 axles which have no issues triggering automatic signals and crossings etc

Because CN apparently cannot get their signaling system to detect anything with less than their specified (large) number of axles.

With CN, the (alleged) issue is train detection for grade crossing protection. There is also a minimum 30-axle requirement imposed by the Union Pacific on the route of the River Runner in Missouri that was triggered by an Amtrak train dropping of the dispatch board back in December. That one is for general CTC signaling.

For the uninformed (not jis ), most railroad signaling is based on an electric circuit applied to the two rails. When a train occupies a section of track, the metal wheels and axles short (shunt) the circuit between the two tracks, and the signal and control system interprets that as a train occupying that section of track.

A problem can develop if the rails get a little rusty. The voltage applied to the rails is low (typically about 9 Volts), so even a light coating of rust can create an insulation layer that prevents the wheels from shunting the circuit. The more axles a train has, the greater the likelihood that the lead axles will clean the rails of rust, the following axles will then shunt the circuit, and the signal or crossing protection will "see" the train. Why here and not there? Why CN, only a section of the UP, and no where elsewhere? Who knows.

The 30 axle minimum is interesting. Almost all Amtrak equipment has four axles. Four does not divide evenly into 30. That means that Amtrak must run at least one locomotive and seven cars (32 axles) to meet the 30-axle minimum. However, one Amtrak car has six axles - the old dome car. If that car is available, then they only need the locomotive and six cars. Thus, the dome occasionally shows up solely to meet the minimum axle count.

 

[jis]

Maybe Amtrak should acquire a few of those special load move 10 axle cars, just to meet the axle count. There are interesting possibilities to equip those cars with a semi-open observation deck for use in the summer and such too. Says he with a smirk and dripping sarcasm

 

[PRR 60]

Replace the transformer with a block of concrete, and we're ready to rumble. Twenty axles in one shot. I bet cranking that bad boy up to 79 mph would be interesting.



By terry cantrell - originally posted to Flickr as CPOX820, CC BY-SA 2.0

 

[Seaboard92]

The other option that could work but I doubt the owners would go along with it. Tack private cars on for axle count in exchange for free parking for the month. You might get some takers.

And the reason they don't let passengers into the dome when it's an axle count car is actually good business. With only one car you can't guarantee it'll be on the train every day. And you don't want people anticipating an amenity that you can't run on every train or every departure of a certain number. People don't like equipment substitutions especially if it is an amenity they were planing on. But then again most passengers don't care about domes they just want to go to their destination safely, and on time. The railfans do but they make up such a small part of the market I wouldn't worry about them. Amtrak wouldn't miss railfans disappearing as they make up such a minority of passengers.