Amtrak ending BC on AT and Crescent May 1st

[TiBike]

They do this on the Surfliner. Business class sometimes extends part way into an adjacent coach. It's the same snackbox/wine/2x2 seating as in the dedicated business class car. I think it's fine -- much better odds of your seatmate and neighbors being agreeable travelling companions.

You could also dynamically auto-adjust available business class seats by rows instead of entire cars based on demand. That way no more than a row or two of buffer space would be "wasted" on business class. This is very similar to how regional length business class is handled on some European airlines. But, it also has the distinction of being very efficient and I don't think that's something Amtrak appreciates.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Making Amtrak LD BC 2x1 would probably attract buyers, but it would cost money to implement and reduce capacity somewhat.

How much money would it cost to simply block one column of seats at booking time? That way you'd end up with 2x1 seating without having to modify or retrofit any of Amtrak's hardware.

All this does is give (potentially, if the whole car is sold) 2/3 of the business class passengers the exact same experience as coach, for a higher price, while 1/3 of the passengers get twice as much space.

The minimum dependable business class experience on Amtrak has always been little more than a glorified coach seat for as long as I can remember and my suggestion does not change that fact. Amtrak has made it abundantly clear that they are unwilling and/or incapable of running their business class service as a substantially upgraded experience.

That just makes the inconsistency worse, which is one of the major problems with Business Class on Amtrak (and has been for years). If anything, you'd have to block 50% of the space to give everybody their own seat pair. Then the question becomes, are passengers willing to pay essentially twice as much for business class vs. coach, because that's what they're taking up.

What my suggestion does is give individual travelers a chance to sit alone in exchange for an upcharge. Amtrak does not allow single travelers to sit alone in coach, even if they purchase two coach tickets, so this would remedy that problem. Amtrak could address the concerns you mentioned above by only seating people together in business when they're booked as one itinerary and/or by charging more for the business seats that are next to a blocked seat.

You could also dynamically auto-adjust available business class seats by rows instead of entire cars based on demand. That way no more than a row or two of buffer space would be "wasted" on business class. This is very similar to how regional length business class is handled on some European airlines. But, it also has the distinction of being very efficient and I don't think that's something Amtrak appreciates.

This has a bit more merit, though without extra amenities, it still becomes questionable value to passengers to get essentially the same product as other passengers for quite a bit more money. Since you're in the same car as other coach passengers, you don't get reduced foot traffic / noise, you get the same atmosphere as coach, same seats as coach, and (under current setup), little to nothing extra in terms of service. So...what's the point?

For many passengers there will be little or no point, but for people like me the opportunity to purchase a seat I could enjoy alone would be worth a premium over a standard coach seat where I may be forced to sleep with a potentially stinky/feely stranger without any divider between us. Is it worth double the coach price? Perhaps, especially if they allowed me to choose my actual seat rather than wait for some random coach attendant to do it for me at the last second. At least in this case I wouldn't be stuck with Amtrak's silly excuses about why they cannot figure out how to set aside two matching coach seats for one passenger with two paid tickets.

 

[xyzzy]

The CEO knows that Delta has raised a significant amount of money by up-pricing some rows in domestic economy class as Comfort+ with more legroom. (Of course, those Comfort+ rows have basically the same legroom as every Delta aircraft had in the 1990s.) For Amfleet II coaches there isn't much point in selling additional legroom. On the Carolinian, some passengers going NC-NY (an all-day ride) will gladly pay extra to escape 72-seat Amfleet I, but that's an isolated situation.

On overnight trains, yes, some folks might be willing to pay for "virtual 2-1" with a seat in 2-2 blocked off. If the BC car had the fourth seat blocked off in every row -- that is, BC would be the starboard side of the chosen coach -- perhaps Amtrak would be more open to the idea. But I wouldn't expect Amtrak to price it inexpensively. And this would limit the BC offering to 15 sales per Amfleet II car. You could go even farther with "virtual 1-1", one seat blocked off on both sides of the aisle, but then the challenge would be selling even more upgrades per car.

 

[PVD]

Under the present system, on almost every route, where every passenger buys a seat that is heavily subsidized, a case can be made by train advocates that there is a public interest in providing that service. It is a lot more difficult to ask taxpayers to subsidize an unoccupied seat. I understand that an unsold seat still bears a cost, some recovery might be better than none, but that is not an easy sell to the general public. What if people bought the empty seats at discount fares, and actual riders had to pay higher bucket fares? Maybe the second seat should be sold at the fully loaded price, no subsidy.

 

[neroden]

When I was on the LSL I remember Business Class was on one side of the Café/Lounge and I hardly saw anyone if anyone using it. That left one car for everyone else, including the crew (there is an active thread about the topic).

The BC on LSL is frequently packed absolutely full. I've been on it, full, repeatedly.

I suspect the customer base on the Crescent and Auto Train is very different from that on the LSL or Coast Starlight.

 

[Anderson]

The Crescent can probably sell some BC seats from NYP into Virginia, but on the southern end (Atlanta-Birmingham-New Orleans) the load factor situation really fouls the value proposition since Amtrak has generally wanted to sell sleeper space there (as, after all, the SCAs are still on the clock all the way in and putting someone in a sleeper and getting them to have a meal or two helps the diner's performance...which is a major metric Amtrak has been dealing with.

 

[PVD]

The car on the LSL was going anyway as a cafe/lounge. Quite a few less seats to sell, also. It isn't adding a car or dropping a car sold as regular coach seats, or adding another OBS position. Very different than Crescent.

 

[acelafan]

I like Devil's suggestion. I would *gladly* pay extra on an overnight route where I could be guaranteed to have an empty seat next to me. Amtrak should really consider that.

 

[Anderson]

I like Devil's suggestion. I would *gladly* pay extra on an overnight route where I could be guaranteed to have an empty seat next to me. Amtrak should really consider that.

Agreed. There are times when I've wanted to see how a conductor would react if, on making that announcement about buying two seats if you were going to sprawl, someone promptly pulled out a credit card.

Edit: Honestly, Amtrak should look at dynamically pricing "second seat" offerings...it's a worthwhile upsell, especially since (for example) south of Washington on a Regional there's often a good deal of empty space that they would at least be getting some revenue for, and there are definitely cases where the extra space is going to have utility (e.g. workspace on a 3-4 hour trip).

 

[PaTrainFan]

I've ridden BC mainly on the Pennsylvanian with one trip on Pacific Surfliner. I have no experience with BC on any other Eastern or Midwest train. I see the upgrade on the Pennsylvanian is valuable mainly because I have rarely had a seatmate, and it seems to be fairly well patronized, certainly east of Harrisburg. But the Pacific Surfliner experience is vastly superior with the boxed snack and unquestionably worth the higher fare. If Amtrak tried this same approach throughout the system it would have a winner, but I presume it happens on the Surfliner because of the state subsidy.

 

[CraigDK]

I've ridden BC mainly on the Pennsylvanian with one trip on Pacific Surfliner. I have no experience with BC on any other Eastern or Midwest train. I see the upgrade on the Pennsylvanian is valuable mainly because I have rarely had a seatmate, and it seems to be fairly well patronized, certainly east of Harrisburg. But the Pacific Surfliner experience is vastly superior with the boxed snack and unquestionably worth the higher fare. If Amtrak tried this same approach throughout the system it would have a winner, but I presume it happens on the Surfliner because of the state subsidy.

You hit on a key phrase, worth the higher fare. At least on the long distance trains, BC should be a repeatable experience from one train to another that is (as you put it) worth the higher fare and that experience should slot in somewhere between the experience of a passenger in a coach and in a sleeper.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

On the Lake Shore, Cardinal, and Crescent, what are the actual amenities? Soft drinks from the cafe car? A stack of bottled water at one end of the "Busineesd class" car? 1 drink that you have to sign for in the cafe?

(Not asking about coast starlight since the bottles of water and food voucher are clearly advertised).

 

[jis]

On the Lake Shore the hard product is distinct - 2-1 seating. So at least notionally, even if there was no enhanced soft product, the distinction is clear.

The problem with those trains where the hard product is either indistinguishable or is somewhat inferior to the one in Coach, and the soft product is ridiculously minimalist differentiation, one might as well not have it.

 

[Anderson]

So, looking at the LD BC products:
-LSL: Distinct hard product. Limited differentiation on soft product. Seems to be a modest success

-CS: Somewhat distinct hard product, significantly distinct soft product, distinct marketing. Seems to be a success.

-Cardinal: Distinct hard product. Limited differentiation on soft product. Seems to be a modest success (especially since the Cardinal doesn't tend to quite need full use of the whole cafe).

-Crescent: Dubious distinction on the hard product. Weak marketing. Flop.

-Auto Train: No clue on the hard product, but no room to distinguish the soft product. Moderate marketing. Flop.

So, I think jis hit it on the head.

 

[TiBike]

I wouldn't call the Coast Starlight's hard product distinct. It's 2x2 seating. In my experience, the upper level is a standard coach. Sometimes the lower level has faux-leather seats, but you're often times, um, encouraged to sit upstairs. Often times, it appears to be set aside as an, um, workspace for the business class attendant.

 

[jis]

In Auto Train the hard product was identical to coach AFAICT, just perhaps a bit secluded.

OTOH in the Amtrak California service, the hard product is minimally different but the soft product is quite noticeably different what with soft drink and wine and snack boxes and all that. I loved it! No wonder it is a success.

 

[Lonestar648]

Interesting that Amtrak decided not to make BC on the Crescent and AT more attractive in order to sell more seats. Will BC be expanded to other trains with these cancellations?

 

[GaSteve]

Interesting that Amtrak decided not to make BC on the Crescent and AT more attractive in order to sell more seats. Will BC be expanded to other trains with these cancellations?

BC on the Crescent was just a regular Amfleet II coach on the end of the consist. Nothing special.

 

[Palmetto]

Interesting that Amtrak decided not to make BC on the Crescent and AT more attractive in order to sell more seats. Will BC be expanded to other trains with these cancellations?

BC on the Crescent was just a regular Amfleet II coach on the end of the consist. Nothing special.

And therein lies the problem: Nothing special.

 

[Thirdrail7]

In Auto Train the hard product was identical to coach AFAICT, just perhaps a bit secluded.

OTOH in the Amtrak California service, the hard product is minimally different but the soft product is quite noticeably different what with soft drink and wine and snack boxes and all that. I loved it! No wonder it is a success.

The Auto Train business class had a few minor perks. It was against the sleepers and business class passengers boarded after the sleeper passengers but ahead of the coach passengers. You also ordered off the sleeping car menu and used the sleeping car lounge and also received a comfort kit(pillow, eye shades, etc), water and digital newspaper.

The Crescent offered digital newspapers and weird position in the consist.

Wheeeee!

At any rate, I can't wait to see some of these go. I hope he sheds more of them. With little exception, it has been a waste since Custom Class became Business class. The only thing is, people keep paying for it and it generates revenue.

 

[Anderson]

In Auto Train the hard product was identical to coach AFAICT, just perhaps a bit secluded.

OTOH in the Amtrak California service, the hard product is minimally different but the soft product is quite noticeably different what with soft drink and wine and snack boxes and all that. I loved it! No wonder it is a success.

The Auto Train business class had a few minor perks. It was against the sleepers and business class passengers boarded after the sleeper passengers but ahead of the coach passengers. You also ordered off the sleeping car menu and used the sleeping car lounge and also received a comfort kit(pillow, eye shades, etc), water and digital newspaper.

The Crescent offered digital newspapers and weird position in the consist.

Wheeeee!

At any rate, I can't wait to see some of these go. I hope he sheds more of them. With little exception, it has been a waste since Custom Class became Business class. The only thing is, people keep paying for it and it generates revenue.

I don't disagree with you, but:

(1) Business Class now offers a shield against cancellation fees, and unless a train is pretty packed it seems to often be cheaper than the Flexible Coach ticket. That's actually a significant selling point for business class now that the voucher situation got changed.

(2) I've felt, for quite some time, that something better than Business Class (at least, as we know it) has potential on the Regionals and their equivalents elsewhere, especially given the volume of business that seems to get generated there. In particular, I'm reminded of one time where I heard that about a quarter of the revenue generated on the VA trains was from Business Class tickets (though to be fair, this isn't as thundering as it might seem at first: A FBG-WAS passenger probably isn't as likely to buy Business Class as a NFK-WAS or NPN-PHL passenger, and that longer-haul passenger is going to have a substantially higher fare base to boot). Still, the number of 6-8 hour passengers coming out of central/southern VA isn't trivial, and all the data I've seen suggests that Richmond to points north is a substantial market for the Silvers for similar reasons.

 

[CHvision]

Will the Crescent keep their Amfleet II coach that was squeezed between two Viewliners to the coach section of the consist?

 

[NativeSon5859]

I just got off of 20 in WAS earlier today. Business Class was empty the entire trip until Charlottesville. I rode it once NYP-NOL. Literally the only redeeming feature was that you were basically guaranteed two seats to yourself. But again it wasn’t all that special. Not surprised to see it go.

Side note - people like to always bash the southern portion of the route but ATL-NOL is one of the busiest city pairs on the route. In the top 3, I believe. The problem is that besides BHM, none of the other towns in that segment generate much ridership.

 

[cpotisch]

Will the Crescent keep their Amfleet II coach that was squeezed between two Viewliners to the coach section of the consist?

Most likely yes, since that car was already in the consist before they introduced BC on the Crescent.‘Business Class’.

 

[benale]

Will the Crescent keep their Amfleet II coach that was squeezed between two Viewliners to the coach section of the consist?

Most likely yes, since that car was already in the consist before they introduced BC on the Crescent.‘Business Class’.

2×1 seating is the reason I would use Business Class. On an overnight train the prospect of having to share a seat with someone is very unappealing. If the price of a sleeper isnt outrageous I will always do a roomette. Echoing other posters I would gladly pay extra to have two seats to myself. I'm sure many others agree. Why wont Amtrak institute a fare structure like this. The last straw came last year when I was forced to sit with a smelly 350 pound guy on a sold out train from Chicago to Pittsburgh. I gladly spent a good portion of the night in the Sightseet car. That option is not available on the other Eastern trains.