79(28) Lost 2H (Again)

[neroden]

I'd like to see the press release. You seem to be right that through freight is planned. Freight would definitely be shoved out of the way for passenger trains, though; that's the advantage of having the passenger operator in control of ownership & dispatch.

 

[xyzzy]

Don't jump to conclusions about who will dispatch Petersburg-Raleigh. No one has said yet.

 

[neroden]

I suppose it's possible that VA and NC government could be incredibly stupid, and allow a line they built with state & federal funds for passenger service, to be dispatched for the benefit of freight service. I try never to underestimate the stupidity of state governments, particuarly in the South.

But if they've ever talked to anyone who's ever done any work with passenger rail, they will do what Michigan and New York and Massachusetts and Vermont and California and Florida have been doing, and put the passenger operator firmly in control. The freight trains can deal with being delayed by passenger trains, the passenger trains can't tolerate being delayed by freight trains.

 

[xyzzy]

The NCDOT Raleigh-Charlotte trains are dispatched by NS, and things run just fine. It's true that the underlying railroad is owned by NCDOT, but that doesn't matter much in day-to-day operations. The contract between NCDOT/NCRR and NS clearly gives NS dispatching rights.

The question, really, is whether the track in question has sufficient capacity for both passenger and freight, relative to the number of trains that traverse it. If the track does, a dispatcher won't have to make difficult decisions very often. But if the track doesn't, it really doesn't matter who dispatches it -- there will be delays regardless. People seem to think that dispatchers are either the devil incarnate or omnipotent. The truth is, neither.

 

[Phil S]

I understand that dispatchers can only do what they can do - given limitations of tracks, sidings,crews, motive power, signal systems, etc. What I'd really like to understand better is why the contract language between the host railroad and Amtrak needs to be such a closely held secret.Or is that even true? Is there some way get a look at these contracts?

Someone please explain to this hopelessly naive pax rr fan, why those contracts need to be such closely held secrets?

Phil S

 

[neroden]

The NCDOT Raleigh-Charlotte trains are dispatched by NS, and things run just fine. It's true that the underlying railroad is owned by NCDOT, but that doesn't matter much in day-to-day operations. The contract between NCDOT/NCRR and NS clearly gives NS dispatching rights.

Everyone knows who's in charge. If NS started delaying passenger trains for freights, they wouldn't get their contract renewed.

The question, really, is whether the track in question has sufficient capacity for both passenger and freight, relative to the number of trains that traverse it. If the track does, a dispatcher won't have to make difficult decisions very often. But if the track doesn't, it really doesn't matter who dispatches it -- there will be delays regardless.

To freight trains, yes.

People seem to think that dispatchers are either the devil incarnate or omnipotent. The truth is, neither.

You make it seem much too simple and act as if it is out of the control of the dispatchers -- which isn't true at all. The difference between hostile-to-passengers dispatching and friendly-to-passengers dispatching is actually quite blatant and obvious most of the time. Though in some cases I've also seen what looks like simply sloppy dispatching (not paying attention).
Of course, it's possible to give a dispatcher an impossible problem ("Here, we've assembled a million very long extra trains for you to put through a single track line, and we need to shut the line down for maintenance.")

But consider the case where the dispatcher is faced with a somewhat crowded double-track (or largely double-track) line where the dispatcher can choose to give passenger trains priority or not... it can be pretty darn clear when they are doing so and when they've been instructed not to. Little things like whether you're passing freight trains going in the same direction, or whether they're being run ahead of you.

I've been on some really impressive passes on BNSF track, with one freight train in the right-hand siding, another freight train in front of us, passing onto the left track to pass that train, and then back onto the right track, with another freight train waiting to go the other way. BNSF has also gone out of its way to provide detour routes when there are problems on the track. I've seen some fairly heroic dispatching from Norfolk Southern as well.

By way of contrast, on CSX in NY, they don't seem to even try to pass passenger trains ahead of freight trains, but I've seen them pass freights around stopped passenger trains. Some of this may have to do with the numerous one-platform stations requiring specific track allocations, but still, the difference in attitude is noticeable. CP seems to have an even less friendly attitude towards passenger trains. And Amtrak has documented CN's behavior in detail in STB filings.

 

[xyzzy]

If NS woke up in the middle of the night and began delaying NCDOT passenger trains for no reason except their whim, there would be recriminations. But that's not going to happen... a red herring. In theory if NS were to lose the lease of the line, they could move freight around it; they've been careful never to close off that possibility entirely. But it would take hundreds of millions of dollars in capital to rearrange their freight flows. Everybody knows. CSX would have no interest in the line.

Sounds like your criticism is specific to CSX. I'd argue that it's even more specific than that, namely a region of CSX. CSX in central North Carolina south of Rocky Mount carries 8 or 10 Amtraks a day plus probably twice and possibly three times the volume of freight that any CSX line in New York does. I don't have a problem with how CSX dispatches south of Rocky Mount. Maybe you're right in your criticism and your suspicion of instructions given to the CSX dispatchers in New York; maybe not. Until you've spoken with a railroad employee who has first-hand knowledge of those instructions or who has actually sat in a dispatcher's chair, you're speculating. Don't go by what the road crews say; my father started working for a railroad in 1947, and road crews were already at war with dispatchers. I believe they always have been.