X-Train Chugging Along?

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Anderson

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I've been following this "other" LA-LV project on and off, and I popped over to the website half-expecting to see a derelict with no updates in six months or something like that. To my (rather pleasant) surprise, the site is still active, and if anything it seems to be moving along quickly:

http://www.vegasxtra...train-blog.html

The tl;dr of this and one of their linked press bits from a Las Vegas news station is that they've been hiring staff over the summer, got a regulatory approval from the state of Nevada back in the spring, and they're looking to renovate the Amtrak station in Las Vegas and use Fullerton as their southern terminus.

Another interesting thing: I pulled up their stock info, and the stock has actually spiked pretty substantially over the last few weeks (and they've apparently been able to raise more from loans than just stock sales lately...which I think is a good sign).

Finally, of import, some non-barking dogs:

1) There is no talk of operating agreements with UP or BNSF (they'll probably be using the tracks of both) for the (currently planned) twice-weekly service.

2) The twice-weekly plan is actually pared back, I believe, from the plans I recall seeing earlier to "ramp up" the service over a few years. I believe it started at once/twice a week and steadily expanded to have a lot more frequencies.

3) Relating to #2, there is physically no way that their ridership projections can work out with only two round trips per week unless they're planning to jam about 10,000 people onto a single train. The two million or so that are projected comes to about 5600 per day over a year.

My guess here is that DX has more or less "scared them down" from a ramp-up (since if they were to see a massive surge in ridership, it would likely be followed by a collapse once DX gets up and running).

In practical terms, I can't tell if the project is actually viable at this stage, but they seem to be getting money from somewhere, since they managed to raise about $1.2m last quarter.

Edit: Ok, I think I mixed up this with the very-much-dead Z-Train proposal, which I rather recall deriding (either in my own mind or on here) as a circus on wheels.
 
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I've seen a couple of news articles on them in the past few months. Ok, so they claim they are constructing or refurbing the station in Vegas.

Looking at their schedule, they will have at least 2 trainsets with 2 departures from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. I see some renderings of fancy coach car interiors, outfitted for the luxury market. Don't see any recent press releases on rolling stock. Ok, what equipment will they be using and where will they get it from?

Their schedule has a 5 hour trip time between Vegas and Fullerton. I guess I should check the old Amtrak schedules to see what the trip time was for the Desert Wind. I assume they must have discussions with UP and Metrolink, right?

The finances of this strike me as suspect to say the least. Can they possibly make enough revenue to pay for the rolling stock and overhead, let alone the cost of running the trains with only 2 round trips per week? One train departs Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday, then both back on Sunday. That is a LOT of idle time for the trains. Who is going to operate the trains for them with such a minimal schedule?

A lot of questions remain. If the X-train gets decent passenger traffic numbers, it says that Amtrak missed an opportunity to restore a LA to Vegas daily corridor service. Amtrak still could approach the city of Las Vegas and the casinos and ask them to provide the operating subsidies until XpressWest is up and running.
 
I've seen a couple of news articles on them in the past few months. Ok, so they claim they are constructing or refurbing the station in Vegas.

Looking at their schedule, they will have at least 2 trainsets with 2 departures from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. I see some renderings of fancy coach car interiors, outfitted for the luxury market. Don't see any recent press releases on rolling stock. Ok, what equipment will they be using and where will they get it from?

Their schedule has a 5 hour trip time between Vegas and Fullerton. I guess I should check the old Amtrak schedules to see what the trip time was for the Desert Wind. I assume they must have discussions with UP and Metrolink, right?

The finances of this strike me as suspect to say the least. Can they possibly make enough revenue to pay for the rolling stock and overhead, let alone the cost of running the trains with only 2 round trips per week? One train departs Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday, then both back on Sunday. That is a LOT of idle time for the trains. Who is going to operate the trains for them with such a minimal schedule?

A lot of questions remain. If the X-train gets decent passenger traffic numbers, it says that Amtrak missed an opportunity to restore a LA to Vegas daily corridor service. Amtrak still could approach the city of Las Vegas and the casinos and ask them to provide the operating subsidies until XpressWest is up and running.
I agree with you fully; there's no reason that two sets couldn't be stretched a lot further (for example, adding a WB trip on Friday with the EB Thursday set, and then having that set return to Vegas on Saturday). The key seems to be that they're aiming for very high loads on each train (1200 pax capacity is what I'm reading).

I'm wondering the same thing on rolling stock. 35 years ago, my guess would be that they'd just grab some stuff laying around, but that isn't an option now. Also, figuring that you're looking at perhaps 30+ cars for the sets (15/set plus spares seems to be where they're going with this), the equipment cost would run from $75m on the low end (looking at Viewliner pricing) to $120m+ on the high end (for bilevels). That is a lot of money; my only guess, if I had to offer one, would be some hope of piggybacking on an Amtrak order.

As to times, pulling one of the 1995 timetables, I got the following for the Desert Wind:

Eastbound:

10:55 AM LAX

11:30 AM FUL

12:33 PM San Bernadino

1:35 PM Victorville

2:30 PM Barstow

5:45 PM Las Vegas

Westbound:

8:05 AM Las Vegas

11:25 AM Barstow

12:00 N Victorville

1:05 PM San Bernadino

2:18 PM FUL

3:20 PM LAX

There's about a 30 minute pad westbound between FUL and LAX, but at the same time that's academic as this operation isn't going all the way downtown (at least, not for now). FUL-Las Vegas times out at 6:15 EB and 6:12 WB, with three intermediate stops. Being a realist, I'd say that would allow for them to drop back to 6:00 without any trouble. I would also note that a check back to the April, 1983 timetable shows a LAX-Vegas time of 6:40 Eastbound, which again hints at 6:00 or so, albeit on a slightly different routing. The distance in question is 340 miles or thereabouts, so 6:00 give or take a bit makes a good deal of sense.
 
FUL-Las Vegas times out at 6:15 EB and 6:12 WB, with three intermediate stops. Being a realist, I'd say that would allow for them to drop back to 6:00 without any trouble. I would also note that a check back to the April, 1983 timetable shows a LAX-Vegas time of 6:40 Eastbound, which again hints at 6:00 or so, albeit on a slightly different routing. The distance in question is 340 miles or thereabouts, so 6:00 give or take a bit makes a good deal of sense.
The Desert Wind trip times are from 1995. There have been a lot of track projects since then by UP, BNSF, and California to improve the flow of freight container traffic from Long Beach and for Metrolink service. There is the eastern Alameda corridor project and the Colton Flyover which is currently under construction.

Found a link on Wikipedia's entry for the Desert Wind (Amtrak) to an extensive 2007 "Las Vegas to Los Angeles Rail Corridor Improvement Feasibility Study". (213 pages, ~6 MB PDF). Chock full of rail maps, travel market for Southern CA to Vegas data, route alternative analysis, specific possible track projects, and project trip times for no, low-build, high-build improvements for Surfliner, Talgo, and wait for it, Bombardier JetTrain equipment.

I think some of the proposed projects for the LA to San Bernardino and BNSF Cajon Subdivision have been completed or are under construction since this 2007 report. However, the UP Cima Subdivision from near Barstow to Vegas which was 84% single tracked has probably seen few improvements. The report shows circa 6 hour trip times from LA Union Station to Vegas with various low-build improvements. So a circa 5 hour trip time from Fullerton to Vegas with stops only at Riverside and San Barnardino might be feasible with the track projects that are already done or under construction. But, by not starting at LA Union Station, they may cut off too much of the western half of LA region market.

The problem with the report that I see is that it is one of those, well, there are the low-build $1+ billion dollar improvement and the $3+ billion dollar high-build improvements. Those numbers make it politically difficult to even start a once a day service from scratch even with the bare minimum of improvements. Far easier to sell incremental improvements if there is a successful once a day train service with decent trip times showing that people will indeed take the train.

This report has to be the basis for the X-Train plans. Lays out for them the market numbers, peak travel days and route alternatives in detail.
 
A read-through on the report makes a lot of sense out of things. The one jam that I see is that the ridership projections in this report are clearly quite a bit lower than what X-Train is aiming for, and that's with daily service. However, with that said, there are three points in their defense:

1) Corridor ridership is up about 50% since the report was being worked on (I must presume that their ridership data is no newer than FY2006, and I'm actually expecting that they were working off of FY05 numbers).

2) These reports tend to be a hair on the conservative side (ignoring the Lynchburger, estimate-killing results have been increasingly common over the last few years); and

3) They can achieve rather high load factors with just the ballpark ridership in the report. Assuming 1200 seats/train and two round trips per week, you're looking at 249,600 seats being available. Could this operation put 200,000 butts in seats, for an 80% load factor? Based on the massive travel market they're looking at per the report (excluding the western-most parts of the region as well as the extreme eastern parts and "other", I got 7.613m trips for 2007 and 9.774m trips for 2020; double this for the number of rides), the 100k riders needed for that would amount to about 1-2% market share. That seems to at least be plausible, though I think the far-less-than-daily operation would be a nasty hindirance to it breaking through in a serious fashion. Mind you, if they were able to add in some "specials" (i.e. running a return on Labor Day, trips around July 4th, etc.) on top of their existing operation, this becomes plausible.

Edit: I'll also note that the numbers in there without major builds make 5 hours look plausible for only running to Fullerton. A lack of intermediate stops (either none or only one at the far end of the area) also eases scheduling issues.
 
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X-Train now claims to have purchased 10 passenger railrcars from a private owner, but the news release does not say who they acquire the cars from and what types. Anyone care to speculate? :cool:

Quoting from the first paragraphs in the news release:

LAS VEGAS, NV--(Marketwire - Aug 28, 2012) - Las Vegas Railway Express, Inc. ("X" Train), a Delaware company (OTCQB: XTRN) is pleased to announce the company has executed an agreement with a private owner to acquire its first set of passenger railcars for its "X" Train project. The acquisition brings the first railset to "X" Train officials upon which the refurbishment is scheduled to begin early next year. The terms of the cash purchase were not disclosed.
"These railcars are the genesis of our product and signal the beginning of the design and refurbishment process. When complete, the 'X' Train will establish a new, exciting and innovative travel experience for travelers between Los Angeles and Las Vegas," stated Joseph Cosio-Barron, Asset Development Managing Director for the Company. The ten car railset is the first of several which will undergo extensive renovation under the supervision of Mr. Cosio-Barron.

"X" Train President & CEO Michael A. Barron said, "We have acquired the first set of railcars and are expecting to begin renovation work later this year. Our plan is to use this first railset as our operating prototype and as a model for future cars."
Wonder if the refurbished cars will look anything like the artist renderings besides the logo on the side of the cars.
 
Anyone care to speculate? :cool:
NJ Transit? :rolleyes:
The new release says they are acquiring the equipment from a private owner. I don't think NJ Transit meets that description.

Isn't there a storage yard with a large number of old Sante Fe hi-level passenger cars which used to belong to Amtrak? [pause for search]. Yes, in Illinois. There were a bunch of photos posted last year from a tour of the Gateway Rail facility in Madison, IL. The artist rendering attached to the news release may be a legit clue.

The X-Train plans are to run an excursion level service: one train departing Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday; then both back from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. The cars would not get the daily pounding that Amtrak's equipment receives, so they would have multiple down days to maintain the old equipment.

I'm still very skeptical about the viability of their business model or plan. So they spend millions(?) refurbishing 10 train cars with luxury interiors. Then they run the trainsets 1 paying round-trip a week? Really?
 
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The new release says they are acquiring the equipment from a private owner. I don't NJ Transit meets that description.
Ah, yes. Details! :lol:

Isn't there a storage yard with a large number of old Sante Fe hi-level passenger cars which used to belong to Amtrak? [pause for search]. Yes, in Illinois. There were a bunch of photos posted last year from a tour of the Gateway Rail facility in Madison, IL. The artist rendering attached to the news release may be a legit clue.

The X-Train plans are to run an excursion level service: one train departing Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday; then both back from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. The cars would not get the daily pounding that Amtrak's equipment receives, so they would have multiple down days to maintain the old equipment.

I'm still very skeptical about the viability of their business model or plan. So they spend millions(?) refurbishing 10 train cars with luxury interiors. Then they run the trainsets 1 paying round-trip a week? Really?
At least (hopefully) it would be nice to see those cars have some attention paid them, if that were the case.
 
The new release says they are acquiring the equipment from a private owner. I don't NJ Transit meets that description.
Ah, yes. Details! :lol:

Isn't there a storage yard with a large number of old Sante Fe hi-level passenger cars which used to belong to Amtrak? [pause for search]. Yes, in Illinois. There were a bunch of photos posted last year from a tour of the Gateway Rail facility in Madison, IL. The artist rendering attached to the news release may be a legit clue.

The X-Train plans are to run an excursion level service: one train departing Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday; then both back from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. The cars would not get the daily pounding that Amtrak's equipment receives, so they would have multiple down days to maintain the old equipment.

I'm still very skeptical about the viability of their business model or plan. So they spend millions(?) refurbishing 10 train cars with luxury interiors. Then they run the trainsets 1 paying round-trip a week? Really?
At least (hopefully) it would be nice to see those cars have some attention paid them, if that were the case.
Well, let's not forget that those art renderings have been floating around for quite some time and may or may not still be accurate (I think they just repainted a Metra car design as a quick-and-easy selection). I'm hoping for the Hi-Levels, personally, so long as they don't get butchered into an unrecognizable circus. Likewise, I'd note that there are probably another 15-20 cars that could be purchased for either a second set, as spares, or to extend the set(s).

As to the issue of using the cars once a week, I think that demand will induce at least some more use. Still, assuming 72 seats apiece in 9 cars (the tenth presumably doing duty as a diner/bar/lounge of some sort), you'd have a capacity of 648 paying passengers. If you cut this through a shift to 2-1 seating you'd have 432 passengers. Multiply this by $100/passenger, and weekly revenue on a run could hit about $43k on the 2-1 model or $65k on the 2-2 model (assuming that the $99 is a round-trip fare) or $86k/$130k (assuming it is a one-way fare). The hgh end therefore would be over $6 million in revenue over the course of a year.

I do suspect that if demand is strong, an additional round trip per set might work their way into the mix. For example, the Thursday set could run back to LA on Friday and then return on Saturday while the Friday set could do a Wedensday/Thursday round trip. This would offer service to Las Vegas on WRFS and service from Vegas on RFU. You'd have no service either way on MT, and I think the lack of Monday service is a potential failing due to holiday weekends and the like. With that said, it seems plausible that a pair of deadhead moves (or oddly-timed moves that are thin on revenue generation) could be worked into the mix, such as turning the Sunday Morning run to LA for a later-evening run back to Vegas so as to enable a Monday trip.

Also worth noting is that, at least in theory, two sets allows up to four equipment moves per day (i.e. one round trip with each set is viable). I think it is obvious that they want to do a lot less than this (both to avoid equipment issues and, at least for the time being, to avoid "over-serving" the market), but it also seems obvious that they can push things a lut futrher. Of note is the fact that Sunday is actually the only day they actually need both sets for their proposed service...in the event of a major problem (multiple car failures and the like), they can always rush some cars back to LA from the Thursday train to do double duty on the Friday one.
 
There's a private owner of Metra gallery cars. Several years back, Metra sold some of its carbon-steel (that is, not fluted stainless steel) cars, the oldest in its fleet, to Illinois Transit Assembly, of Madison IL.

ITA is now Gateway Rail Services. Interestingly, while GRS lists several passenger railcars for sale on its website, none of them are ex-Metra cars.
 
As to the issue of using the cars once a week, I think that demand will induce at least some more use. Still, assuming 72 seats apiece in 9 cars (the tenth presumably doing duty as a diner/bar/lounge of some sort), you'd have a capacity of 648 paying passengers. If you cut this through a shift to 2-1 seating you'd have 432 passengers. Multiply this by $100/passenger, and weekly revenue on a run could hit about $43k on the 2-1 model or $65k on the 2-2 model (assuming that the $99 is a round-trip fare) or $86k/$130k (assuming it is a one-way fare). The hgh end therefore would be over $6 million in revenue over the course of a year.

I do suspect that if demand is strong, an additional round trip per set might work their way into the mix. For example, the Thursday set could run back to LA on Friday and then return on Saturday while the Friday set could do a Wedensday/Thursday round trip. This would offer service to Las Vegas on WRFS and service from Vegas on RFU. You'd have no service either way on MT, and I think the lack of Monday service is a potential failing due to holiday weekends and the like. With that said, it seems plausible that a pair of deadhead moves (or oddly-timed moves that are thin on revenue generation) could be worked into the mix, such as turning the Sunday Morning run to LA for a later-evening run back to Vegas so as to enable a Monday trip.
The $99 is stated as an introductory price. Since their aim is to provide a "Las Vegas" style service - presumably after the more ostentatious Vegas hotels and casinos, not the low end flea bag motels - the standard price will be higher. But the material on the website discusses combining the train travel with bookings of hotels, spas, dining & show tickets. Which does change the economics behind their plan. Provide a weekend package trip with a X-Train to Vegas, a limo to the hotel and casino complex, spend 2 days dropping money at the casino and on shows, back to LA via the X-Train on Sunday night while recovering from the hangover and hoping what just happened in Vegas will indeed stay in Vegas.

As for the X-Train schedule and number of trips each week, they will have to pay UP trackage right fees and UP will say how many trips the X-Train can run in a week. What we don't know is what arrangements Las Vegas Railway Express has reached with UP.
 
Excerpt:

 

LAS VEGAS — Las Vegas Railway Express, which plans to begin luxury rail passenger service between suburban Los Angeles and Las Vegas in 2013, announced Tuesday it had "executed an agreement with a private owner to acquire its first set of passenger railcars for its 'X' Train project." Spokesperson Maria Bailey told Trains News Wire the cars being refurbished are ten bi-levels built by Pullman Standard. "The architectural firm is working on drawings of what the inside of the cars will look like, and those renderings should be released soon," she said. The company's release noted that the work would begin early next year but did not disclose the terms of the cash purchase nor where the cars came from. In the release, Las Vegas Railway Express president & CEO Michael A. Barron did say, "Our plan is to use this first railset as our operating prototype and as a model for future cars."

 

Rest of the article HERE.

 
 
Ok, now I am confused. Did Pullman-Standard do any bilevel work other than the Superliners? The Hi-Levels were a Budd job, so this rules them out.

Actually, scratch that. We might be looking at ex-Metra gallery cars. Those are the only other bi-levels I can think of that P-S was invovled with off the top of my head.
 
Probably should merge this thread with the X-Train chugging along thread.

The Trains Magazine news brief does provide clues to where the 10 Pullman Standard bi-levels might coming from even if the company doesn't. Excerpt:

Pullman Standard built bi-levels for multiple railroads, including the first push-pull commuter cars for Chicago & North Western. Colorado Railcar did have a number of ex-Southern Pacific Pullman Standard-built bi-levels on its Ft. Lupton, Colo., property in September, 2008, several months before the company went bankrupt. The cars were at various stages of transformation dating from the stillborn Marlboro Express in the 1990s (which was to feature a hot tub car), the Golden Eagle transcontinental train that was to run with Amtrak express cars in 2001, and eventually the Colorado Railcar-owned Grand Luxe cruise train, which abruptly halted operations in August, 2008.
Maybe that car still has the interior for a hot tub! Hot water sloshing around could be a wee bit of a problem with the FRA though. :lol:

Given the interview with the head guy behind XpressWest (formerly DesertXpress) which sounds as if XW is very close to getting approval for its $5.5 billion FRA RRIF loan, what would the loan do to the prospects for the X-Train? There would be a 5 year window before the XW is running and after that they could be competing with HSR service from Victorville. The 10 Pullman Standard bi-levels could go back into mothballs.
 
Huh...I didn't know how far Amtrak was along with their "Transcontinental Luxury Service" plans when the system growth plans got axed.

As to DX/XW impacting the X-Train (I don't think even Liz Taylor could come up with as many Xes as these trains seem to be involving), there are three options there:

1) DX/XW will basically kill the X-Train. The presence of a higher-speed service will more or less wipe out the appeal of the conventional-speed train. The time savings will be such that nobody will want to take they pokey 79 MPH train into Las Vegas.

2) The geographic markets will be sufficiently different that the X-Train can survive. Fullerton is further south in the LA Metro area and there are no concrete plans to connect DX/XW to LAUS. The added travel time to get to the bullet train therefore gets to be a bit prohibitive, leaving the X-Train a niche in serving the southern side of the LA region. This could be augmented if the X-Train folks and UP/BNSF can come to an agreement to add some stops in the Valley.

3) The market demographics of the X-Train are going to be distinct enough to support the service, and potentially offer complementary service in some form. This would assume that the bullet train ends up being somewhat more expensive (entirely believable), "nudging" more casual travelers to the X-Train for at least one leg of their trip with its lower fares and/or more tourist-oriented amenities. DX/XW carries the business community and a share of the tourist market, but X-Train also gets a share of it and gets some "makeup help" from the X-Train "normalizing" taking the train to/from Las Vegas.
 
They definately look like Metra cars. I wonder what locomotive they will use. Renderings show the F59PHI.

Another reason for this train to run into LAX would be connections to Amtrak. Might not be much but could be something.
 
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They definately look like Metra cars. I wonder what locomotive they will use. Renderings show the F59PHI.

Another reason for this train to run into LAX would be connections to Amtrak. Might not be much but could be something.
Actually, Fullerton also connects with the Surfliners, which I presume would be (by a wide margin) the main connection concern. Particularly if DX/XW has a stop in Palmdale, there's not a chance they'll get traffic traveling from further north.
 
Another reason for this train to run into LAX would be connections to Amtrak. Might not be much but could be something.
Actually, Fullerton also connects with the Surfliners, which I presume would be (by a wide margin) the main connection concern. Particularly if DX/XW has a stop in Palmdale, there's not a chance they'll get traffic traveling from further north.
LA Union Station would provide direct connections to the LA subways and light rail transit system. I would think X-Train would much rather operate from LA Union Station, but either it costs too much or Metrolink won't let them because of capacity constraints at the station and the tracks to LAX.

Fullerton is part of the Metrolink commuter rail system, but a quick check of the schedules show few Metrolink trains on Sunday and none after either of proposed Sunday trains arrive at Fullerton. The second train on Sunday is nominally set to arrive at Fullerton at around 10 PM, which is before the last north and southbound Surfliners go through Fullerton, but there would be little margin for the X-Train to run late. The X-Train business plan is probably figuring on most people driving to or parking at Fullerton. On the other hand, they may be planing to run several charter buses to Fullerton from LAX and several other locations in the LA area as feeder connectors to the X-train.
 
I would think X-Train would much rather operate from LA Union Station, but either it costs too much or Metrolink won't let them because of capacity constraints at the station and the tracks to LAX.

Fullerton is part of the Metrolink commuter rail system, but a quick check of the schedules show few Metrolink trains on Sunday...
Which kind of contradicts the idea of LAUPT being too busy for an extra two trains on a Sunday. Maybe it's politics, or X-Train may be thinking if they can start with Fullerton it will be easier to get a shoe-in for a slot at LAUPT once people start complaining to Metrolink about problems with connections at Fullerton? Just some thoughts.

Rob
 
I would think X-Train would much rather operate from LA Union Station, but either it costs too much or Metrolink won't let them because of capacity constraints at the station and the tracks to LAX.

Fullerton is part of the Metrolink commuter rail system, but a quick check of the schedules show few Metrolink trains on Sunday...
Which kind of contradicts the idea of LAUPT being too busy for an extra two trains on a Sunday. Maybe it's politics, or X-Train may be thinking if they can start with Fullerton it will be easier to get a shoe-in for a slot at LAUPT once people start complaining to Metrolink about problems with connections at Fullerton? Just some thoughts.

Rob
Or as the CEO of the XpressWest (nee Desertxpress) said, looking at their casino customers, about 75% come from the Inland Empire, making this a better bet. ;-)
 
Which kind of contradicts the idea of LAUPT being too busy for an extra two trains on a Sunday. Maybe it's politics, or X-Train may be thinking if they can start with Fullerton it will be easier to get a shoe-in for a slot at LAUPT once people start complaining to Metrolink about problems with connections at Fullerton? Just some thoughts.

Rob
The Thursday and Friday departures from southern Cal would run into busier Metrolink traffic. The 12 Noon departures for Thursday and Friday from Fullerton shown on their projected schedule are not ideal times. Especially the Friday one where a 3 or 4 PM departure would fit more people's schedules. if you get to Vegas by 9 PM, so what? The partying has just barely gotten started by then. But mid to late afternoon departures will run into more Metrolink traffic.

As for getting customers from the Inland Empire, the X-Train can stop at Fullerton, San Barnardino on a departure from LAUPT. Could stop at Victorville too.
 
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