What Amtrak should aspire to

[D.P. Roberts]

Check out the virtual tours of their passenger cars in the column on the right side of the page:

Indian Pacific Onboard Services

The Indian Pacific's fares seem fairly close to what Amtrak charges. For example, a 3-night trip in a Red Kangaroo sleeper costs about $2400 US for two people. It's equivalent in space to an Amtrak Roomette, which from what I've seen costs about $800 per 24 hours or so (more or less, I know, depending on the route, buckets, etc.). If I could plan a "dream trip" to Australia & splurge on Gold Kangaroo service, it looks like I could get much nicer accommodations than are available on Amtrak, for roughly the same price.

I don't have a remote understanding of Australia's funding system for trains, but from a consumer standpoint it's very appealing. I'm going to have to read up on Australia's system for sure.

 

[Galls]

Amtrak should become a hotel on wheels?

 

[The Metropolitan]

Judging by the lengths of the stops, this seems more like a purely sightseeing train as opposed to one that is mostly intended for functional ground transportation.

$800 for a roomette for 24 hours would defintely be on the high side to me. My friend and I are travelling WAS-NOL for 24 hours in a roomette. Cost of the room and rail fare is $370; had it been $800, we would not have gone.

 

[TVRM610]

Check out the virtual tours of their passenger cars in the column on the right side of the page:Indian Pacific Onboard Services

The Indian Pacific's fares seem fairly close to what Amtrak charges. For example, a 3-night trip in a Red Kangaroo sleeper costs about $2400 US for two people. It's equivalent in space to an Amtrak Roomette, which from what I've seen costs about $800 per 24 hours or so (more or less, I know, depending on the route, buckets, etc.). If I could plan a "dream trip" to Australia & splurge on Gold Kangaroo service, it looks like I could get much nicer accommodations than are available on Amtrak, for roughly the same price.

I don't have a remote understanding of Australia's funding system for trains, but from a consumer standpoint it's very appealing. I'm going to have to read up on Australia's system for sure.

Empire Builder (46 hour trip / two nights on-board) Chicago to Seattle for two adults = $492.00 Roomette

$739.00 for Deluxe Bedroom.

Sorry, but for my money I'm going with Amtrak (not that I would not like to take a spin on the Indian Pacific, just saying I would rather have a trip on amtrak that I can afford).

 

[adam_aussie]

Judging by the lengths of the stops, this seems more like a purely sightseeing train as opposed to one that is mostly intended for functional ground transportation.

Spot on there.

Flying between the 'major' cities of Sydney, Adeliade and Perth is much cheaper, faster and more convenient (multiple flights per day) than the rail option.

So no real practical value with travel times, moreso sentimental value; which is how the operating company (GSR) markets the Indian Pacific, not as a ' train trip', rather a 'train journey'.

Its desert between the cities of Perth and Adelaide, however this section of the trip involves travel over the world's longest straight stretch of railroad track - a distance of 297 miles.

Certainly an experience one should take at least once in a lifetime, possibly twice (although this is rather uncommon) on a return trip.

-adam

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Empire Builder (46 hour trip / two nights on-board) Chicago to Seattle for two adults = $492.00 Roomette $739.00 for Deluxe Bedroom.

Quotes I just got from amtrak.com, CHI-SEA, one way, two people, roomette:

March 21: $674

April 21: $903

May 21: $492

June 21: sold out

July 21: $903

August 21: $674

September 21: $492

October 21: $492

November 21: $674

December 21: $492

So yes, the lowest buckets of the EB are much lower than the Indian Pacific ($492), but they can go much higher ($903). So, at highest bucket prices, it's $1800 US for a 2-day trip on the EB, vs. $2400 US for a 3-day trip in the Indian Pacific. More expensive, but certainly comparable. The only alternative train travel in the US is Grand Luxe, which is certainly a scenic railway and not true transportation, and it costs about $5,000-$10,000 per couple per trip.

Let me make this clear - I'm not suggesting that Amtrak should replace its current options with higher-priced ones. I really think this is the direction Amtrak ought to go, at least in terms of providing the level of service available at the higher end. I think many wealthy people (and no, I'm not one of them) would take LD trains if they could offer a level of luxury that isn't available on current Amtrak trains. This is one reason I'm interested to see how the GrandLuxe experiment works out. GrandLuxe's prices, from what I've seen, are several orders of magnitude above Amtrak. I just think it's interesting to see an option that's only somewhat more expensive than Amtrak.

If the GrandLuxe experiment works, I think Amtrak could offer something like the Indian Pacific on its more successful lines. For example, the Pacific Parlour Cars on the CS seem to be a success. Imagine if a highly upgraded parlour car and a highly upgraded sleeper or two were added to the CS, the EB, or other strong LD routes. You could use existing Superliner cars & fit them out with much higher-end materials (like those pictured on the IP), so I doubt there would be many engineering challenges. Staff them with top-notch crews, charge top-notch prices. There's a significant group of people out there who would be willing to pay even more than Amtrak currently charges for most of its sleeping cars. I think it would work.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Judging by the lengths of the stops, this seems more like a purely sightseeing train as opposed to one that is mostly intended for functional ground transportation.

Spot on there.

Flying between the 'major' cities of Sydney, Adeliade and Perth is much cheaper, faster and more convenient (multiple flights per day) than the rail option.

So no real practical value with travel times, moreso sentimental value; which is how the operating company (GSR) markets the Indian Pacific, not as a ' train trip', rather a 'train journey'.

-adam

Adam - thanks for chiming in - I was hoping an Aussie would give some feedback on the Australian system.

As for air travel - everything you said about air travel in Australia is also true here in the US. Long distance trains are slower, less convenient, and frequently more expensive than air travel.

In comparing Amtrak with other countries, it's hard to find a comparable system. The distances are usually so much smaller in Europe, government involvement varies, etc. However, if you look at Australia, Canada, and the US - three countries with similar levels of development and size - it seems that Amtrak is offering much lower levels of service & prices.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see rail travel develop in a way that makes it an even better alternative to air travel. High-speed corridor trains could easily replace most mid-length flights in the US, if our government could get around its air & road infatuation. But given the "playing field" it's on, Amtrak cannot currently compete for speed, & competition for price is difficult without more government help. So, why not compete in areas like comfort and convenience, where rail naturally excels over air travel?

 

[AlanB]

So yes, the lowest buckets of the EB are much lower than the Indian Pacific ($492), but they can go much higher ($903). So, at highest bucket prices, it's $1800 US for a 2-day trip on the EB, vs. $2400 US for a 3-day trip in the Indian Pacific. More expensive, but certainly comparable. The only alternative train travel in the US is Grand Luxe, which is certainly a scenic railway and not true transportation, and it costs about $5,000-$10,000 per couple per trip.

How is it $1,800 US for a 2-day trip on the EB. You just quoted prices in the $900 range as a high. One doesn't pay twice for a roomette. One must pay the railfare twice for two people, once for each person; but only once for the room charge. The room charge is not per person, only the railfare is.

 

[TVRM610]

D.P. - Your absolutely right, I think select routes could benefit from highly upgraded rail travel (like the GrandeLuxe experiment). I guess my point is, the countries that I see like Australia with the Indian Pacific, and VIA, what happens is that the railroads have better service (1'st class lounge cars, very nice dining cars, etc.) but of course charge a large amount. Since the actual rooms are not much different, what happens is all of the sleepers get a high price tag since they get the fancy meals and lounge cars, and there are no second class sleepers, or affordable sleepers to be found. Thats why I appreciate amtrak so much, because there are affordable first class routes, true, you have to plan ahead sometime to really get them affordable.

With that in mind, I'm all for the Grande Luxe concept, first class cars completely seperate from the existing amtrak sleepers.

 

[BobWeaver]

Check out the virtual tours of their passenger cars in the column on the right side of the page:Indian Pacific Onboard Services

The Indian Pacific's fares seem fairly close to what Amtrak charges. For example, a 3-night trip in a Red Kangaroo sleeper costs about $2400 US for two people. It's equivalent in space to an Amtrak Roomette, which from what I've seen costs about $800 per 24 hours or so (more or less, I know, depending on the route, buckets, etc.). If I could plan a "dream trip" to Australia & splurge on Gold Kangaroo service, it looks like I could get much nicer accommodations than are available on Amtrak, for roughly the same price.

I don't have a remote understanding of Australia's funding system for trains, but from a consumer standpoint it's very appealing. I'm going to have to read up on Australia's system for sure.

I had a friend of mine do this with her family a few summers ago, and she said it was unreal.

 

[WICT106]

I'm not so sure about this. While amtrak has been compelled to explore ways of increasing their revenues, I can only imagine the howls of protests from Amtrak critics saying that they don't want taxpayer funds going towards luxury trains.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

How is it $1,800 US for a 2-day trip on the EB. You just quoted prices in the $900 range as a high. One doesn't pay twice for a roomette. One must pay the railfare twice for two people, once for each person; but only once for the room charge. The room charge is not per person, only the railfare is.

Sorry, that was round trip (I meant to say "2 way", not "2 day"). The numbers I posted were one way, so it's $1800 for a 4 night trip on the EB, as compared to $2400 for a 3 night trip in Australia. I was only mentioning those specific numbers I could make an "apples to apples" comparison. In summary, that's about $250-$400 per couple per day for Amtrak, or $800 per couple per night in Australia (and from what I've seen, VIA as well). This compares to $6000 for a 4-day trip - or $1500 per night - on Grand Luxe. The point being that while Amtrak is certainly cheaper than VIA or Australian train travel, those two countries are filling a niche that is much closer to "transportation" than "scenic travel".

I think my point is getting lost in the numbers comparisons here. I'm not trying to say that Amtrak is "too expensive" or "not competitive" or anything like that. I'm saying that for many or even most sleeping car passengers (don't forget, we haven't even begun to examine bedroom prices), PRICE is not the deciding factor when booking a train trip. A significant group of people are willing to pay MORE for rail travel. It could be because it's more comfortable, more scenic, more relaxing, more convenient - whatever the reason, people are willing to pay more to get it.

For the record, I do think Amtrak is a good deal, and I would be upset if they replaced the current sleeper accommodations with fancier ones. For my planned trip this summer, I'm paying more per night for the hotel I'm staying in than I'm paying for my Amtrak roomette. When you throw in the price of a rental car & food, I'm paying about the same amount per day on Amtrak as I am at my destination.

 

[TVRM610]

I'm not so sure about this. While amtrak has been compelled to explore ways of increasing their revenues, I can only imagine the howls of protests from Amtrak critics saying that they don't want taxpayer funds going towards luxury trains.

Well... taxpayer funds should not go to luxury trains. Thats why if Amtrak is making money off of it (as in the case of the GrandeLux deal) then sure I'm all for it. But if Amtrak was doing it, and taking the risk of loss (if no one pays the money to ride etc.) then no.. I don't really think amtrak has any business doing that. They exist for transportation, not luxury.

I'm not exactly sure what people want though, I mean the Empire Builder has good food served in a very elogant setting, complimentary wine and cheeses tastings, the sleepers are extremely comfortable, and the refurbished ones are very very nice. Obviously this type of service is not to be expected on every train nation wide, so you have it on the Empire Builder, and on the Coast Starlight you have (when it's actually running!) a first class lounge. It seems like the things you are suggesting have already been done, and for only a modest raise in sleeper fares at that. Beyond this, I think a company like GrandeLuxe should take over.

Just my thoughts on it. A co-worker took the Ghan across Australia when he went, he loved it. His discription of coach means that it is definately used as transportation as well.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

I'm not so sure about this. While amtrak has been compelled to explore ways of increasing their revenues, I can only imagine the howls of protests from Amtrak critics saying that they don't want taxpayer funds going towards luxury trains.

I've been wondering about that too. However, again we're only talking about a level of service to be added to an existing train, which still offers coach. People are already used to Coach, Business, and First Class airfares being together on one plane. Plus, Amtrak already has 3 main levels of service (coach, roomette, & bedroom - 5 levels of service if you count family rooms & accessible rooms).

All that, of course, is in terms of public perception. In terms of actual financing, it would only be feasible (and logical) to add another level of service if it generated more revenue. And if it generated more revenue, that means a smaller outlay of public financing.

 

[TVRM610]

D. P. - Are you saying you want amtrak to provide something nicer than a refurbished deluxe bedroom? More of them sure, but I'm not sure how much nicer a room can get, without getting into gold sinks or something. I think that Amtrak should continue to refurbish there cars, and then keep them maintained to the level that you see on trains like the Empire Builder, but I don't think much is needed beyond that. I see the pictures, and honestly I don't see what your getting for your money, maybe thats just me though.

Not trying to argue here, more just trying to understand your point of view, you say Amtrak should aspire to this, but to what? What about the Indian Pacific is that much better than the Empire Builder or Coast Starlight? I of course know that there is room for amtrak to improve in many areas, but I'm trying to see exactly what you see in the accomodations of the I-Pacific.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak should aspire to the Empire Builder. There are some trains on Amtraks routes that simply are not of that quality, but really should be.

 

[Steve4031]

I rode the Indian Pacific about 10 years ago in what was called holiday class which was probably equivalent to the red service mentioned in the link above. The cars were a newer version of the budd cars, and the rooms were fine. The food service in the diner in holiday (red class) was pretty bad. It was the same menu with very limited choices for the entire trip. We rode it round trip, and were really tired of it by the end of the trip. The ambience and quality of food was inferior to the SDS dining service that has been on Amtrak before the recent upgrade which I have not sampled.

Now I cant speak for the first class, but it did look to be much better than the holiday class.

 

[haolerider]

Amtrak should aspire to the Empire Builder. There are some trains on Amtraks routes that simply are not of that quality, but really should be.

That was the idea behind the renovation, to develop a superior class of service that could be used as a template for the rest of the longer distance trains. Unfortunately, the issue of money is the problem in converting the balance of the long haul trains. The re-launch of the Coast Starlight will get Amtrak back in the business of providing first class service.

 

[Irv]

D. P. - Are you saying you want amtrak to provide something nicer than a refurbished deluxe bedroom? More of them sure, but I'm not sure how much nicer a room can get, without getting into gold sinks or something.

I don't think it's about refurbishment.

I rode the Southern Crescent on one of its last trips. The rooms were old, paint was worn off

from repeated cleanings, no fancy anything to be found.

BUT

The train was clean. Every employee was pleasant, polite, and helpful. The food was excellent, served on china with tablecloths, etc. And we got there on time.

If AMTRAK could provide that, I'd be satisfied.

 

[Galls]

D. P. - Are you saying you want amtrak to provide something nicer than a refurbished deluxe bedroom? More of them sure, but I'm not sure how much nicer a room can get, without getting into gold sinks or something.

I don't think it's about refurbishment.

I rode the Southern Crescent on one of its last trips. The rooms were old, paint was worn off

from repeated cleanings, no fancy anything to be found.

BUT

The train was clean. Every employee was pleasant, polite, and helpful. The food was excellent, served on china with tablecloths, etc. And we got there on time.

If AMTRAK could provide that, I'd be satisfied.

Government Subsidies.

 

[Irv]

Government Subsidies.

Explain

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak continues to amaze with the level of service it provides. Did it not provide this level of service, and inspire the passion it does among its long distance customers, the company would have ceased to exist 20 years ago once it became clear it didn't make money and never would.

 

[Galls]

Government Subsidies.

Explain

Well fine dining is not a service the government should be paying for. Regardless of the effect it has on ridership.

 

[Irv]

Well fine dining is not a service the government should be paying for. Regardless of the effect it has on ridership.

Funny, I thought the upgrade more than covered the cost of marginal quality food.

If it doesn't, then they are buying it at the same place the gov't. buys toilet seats and hammers.

"Regardless of the effect is has on ridership"?

Fewer riders will mean no AMTRAK funding, which will mean no passenger trains whatsoever.

Is that ok too? Because moving people is not something the government should be paying for either. It's a luxury - you can just walk or stay at home.

Forget flying, because the gov't. subsidises them all and bails them out when they go bankrupt,

just so people have the luxury of flying. And let's not forget that PAVING is a really unnecessary

luxury. Let's stop paving roads. People are too pampered anyway.

 

[Galls]

Well fine dining is not a service the government should be paying for. Regardless of the effect it has on ridership.

Funny, I thought the upgrade more than covered the cost of marginal quality food.

If it doesn't, then they are buying it at the same place the gov't. buys toilet seats and hammers.

"Regardless of the effect is has on ridership"?

Fewer riders will mean no AMTRAK funding, which will mean no passenger trains whatsoever.

Is that ok too? Because moving people is not something the government should be paying for either. It's a luxury - you can just walk or stay at home.

Forget flying, because the gov't. subsidises them all and bails them out when they go bankrupt,

just so people have the luxury of flying. And let's not forget that PAVING is a really unnecessary

luxury. Let's stop paving roads. People are too pampered anyway.

My argument was on levels of service and where the government should be subsidizing. You seem to be implying that the romantic ideals of the former prestige of rail travel are essential to the actual operation of basic services.
I have no idea where you derive your point of view that the diner car is equivalent to any and all interstate commerce.