Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[rickycourtney]

Or at least produces an alarming amount of smoke. But then I am sure that will happen sooner or later with an overheated bearing or a broken coffee pot, even the new tech coffee pot, or someone dozing off while smoking against the regulations. AFAIK there are no LI-Ion batteries except for the ones in everyone's i-Devices and laptops and other mobile devices.

I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries.

As to the production... on The Other train forum someone recently posted photos of several completed shells outside of the CAF factory in New York. If I'm counting correctly it appears that there is 6 shells complete (two baggage cars, two dining cars and two other (sleeping?) cars).

Here's the link: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3129404 (although if you're not a subscriber... they'll just appear as little thumbnails.)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Why do you suppose the matter is kept so opaque? No pictures of semi completed cars, so explanation of delays, no factory views of the new interrior rooms... arn't WE railfans the best costomers Amtrak and CAF have? Shouldn't we be sold some SIZZLE!?!?!? Where's the excitment, the salesmanship?
I get inundated with American Airlines commercials every time I turn on Bloomburg.... and I doubt any of that stuff about new roomier planes is true anyway. The new viewliners howeve seem to have real potential, but what is up with all the secrecy. Sell the sizzle, sell the new cars, and sell out the tickets!

Ok, I'll settle down now... play the chirping crickets.

Whatever, isn't this what we see with every Amtrak equpment order? Or in fact anything new in the US transport industry seems to get dleayed to no end nowadays. Yeah, American took away More Room Throughout Coach and now they want to advertise more legroom? AFAIK, their new 777 planes have less room than the industry average!

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

The Bags look interesting, mainly because we are not use to seeing a "smooth side" Viewliner. I still wish they included some Lounges in the order so they can get rid of those horrid AmCan Lounges.

 

[Guest]

AFAIK, their new 777 planes have less room than the industry average!

Where does Boeing state that?

Airlines get to configure the seating as they wish. They can tightened up the rows on a 777, as they could on a 737 or a A380 too.

 

[oldtimer]

I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries.

I am almost positive that the "new" Viewliners will be equipped with Nickel-Cadmium batteries as all of the Amtrak car fleet use for their batteries. I don't want to be negative but every new car or train set that has been delivered to Amtrak since 1973 has had

Ni-Cads.

I am always ready to share my experience for no charge, but I resist those comments about me being short.

:help: :giggle:

 

[jis]

By the way I did not say "I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries." as I am quoted as saying in the post above. rickeycourtney said that. The great editor in AU strikes again.

 

[rickycourtney]

Haha yes the editor is a real pain in the ass. I've found it easier to switch it into advanced mode and make sure it quotes people correctly.

For the record... I was being a smartass when I said lead-acid batteries. It was just the most low-tech thing I can think of. I realize most planes and trains use the tried and true NiCad batteries.

 

[PRR 60]

By the way I did not say "I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries." as I am quoted as saying in the post above. rickeycourtney said that. The great editor in AU strikes again.

Fixed.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

AFAIK, their new 777 planes have less room than the industry average!

Where does Boeing state that?

Airlines get to configure the seating as they wish. They can tightened up the rows on a 777, as they could on a 737 or a A380 too.

What I meant is that AA is putting ten-abreast Economy Class seats in their new 777-323ER aircraft. That is less than the industry standard of nine-abreast. It's not targeting the 777, it's targeting the AA 777.

 

[jis]

You can find some nice photos of the modules here:

http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html

 

[rickycourtney]

There's a prototype Viewliner II roomette module on display inside the Amtrak Exhibit Train. I posted some photos of the prototype here. But if anyone's interested in seeing the prototype for themselves (and lives nearby) here's the schedule for the Exhibit Train:

• Seattle, Wash., July 27 (10am-5pm) at King Street Station
• Spokane, Wash., August 3 (10am-5pm) at the Amtrak station
• Burlington, Iowa, August 24 (10am-4pm) and 25th (12pm-5pm) at the Amtrak station

The full schedule is posted here. Keep checking back, they'll likely update the schedule with more stops.

 

[jis]

I guess in another 4 to 6 months we may even be able to see the real thing.

 

[gmushial]

I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries.

I am almost positive that the "new" Viewliners will be equipped with Nickel-Cadmium batteries as all of the Amtrak car fleet use for their batteries. I don't want to be negative but every new car or train set that has been delivered to Amtrak since 1973 has had

Ni-Cads.

I am always ready to share my experience for no charge, but I resist those comments about me being short.

:help: :giggle:

Am wondering about these batteries - are they off-the-shelf industrial NiCad packs? Any idea what type of capacities etc... what I'm wondering is if there isn't room to move to NiMH type packs, or are the NiCads sufficiently special or industrial, that such might not be available or viable?

 

[oldtimer]

The Ni-Cads used are special built by SAFT if my memory serves me right. I can vouch that they are heavy, on a superliner the batteries are installed on the "B" end behind a series of louvered doors, the are installed on two separate shelves, and occupy about 90% of the floor space of that compartment. The battery charger/ low voltage power supply is located in the "B" end equipment room.

 

[gmushial]

Thanks for the reply. So, do I infer correctly, that most of the electrics on a superliner are dc operated and probably either 12 or 24 volt, ie, they run off the batteries directly; but the charger that charges the batteries is run off the high-voltage line from the HEP? Or are the electrics std 120v ac and they run the dc from the batteries through an inverter for such? Or, maybe both, ie, the original lighting etc is low voltage dc, but the 120v outlets at the passenger seats being 120v ac are run through an inverter, but only those outlets? ... had never though about the logistics of providing (electric) power to rail cars. I guess, before the question of batteries came up I had assumed/guessed that the power in the cars was simply an artifact of the HEP... but that would leave a car w/o power while being switched from train to train, or not connected to a loco, etc... so by having the batteries that would provide the necessary buffer.

 

[Nathanael]

These are looking good. Thanks for linking to the "spy" photos. Boy the people at trainorders are Negative Nellies. I like the Viewliner profile, myself; I can't wait until Amtrak gets some coaches and cafes and has a fully matching trainset.

I was worried about baggage capacity previously, due to the likely plans to use only Bag-Dorms on a number of eastern trains. What I hadn't noticed before is that the Viewliner Baggage cars will not only have shelving, they are also going to be 12 feet *longer* than pretty much all of the Heritage baggage cars. That should help quite a lot with capacity.

 

[oldtimer]

Thanks for the reply. So, do I infer correctly, that most of the electrics on a superliner are dc operated and probably either 12 or 24 volt, ie, they run off the batteries directly; but the charger that charges the batteries is run off the high-voltage line from the HEP? Or are the electrics std 120v ac and they run the dc from the batteries through an inverter for such? Or, maybe both, ie, the original lighting etc is low voltage dc, but the 120v outlets at the passenger seats being 120v ac are run through an inverter, but only those outlets? ... had never though about the logistics of providing (electric) power to rail cars. I guess, before the question of batteries came up I had assumed/guessed that the power in the cars was simply an artifact of the HEP... but that would leave a car w/o power while being switched from train to train, or not connected to a loco, etc... so by having the batteries that would provide the necessary buffer.

The DC voltage in railcars is supplied at 72VDC from the battery charger/low voltage power supply. When the 480 VAC 3 Phase Head End Power is on the DC is supplied by the low voltage power supply and is separate from the battery circuit. The battery charger portion just charges the batteries as needed so that the DC load does not go through the batteries until the HEP is off. There are other DC voltages that are supplied by an inverter for voltages above 72 VDC and resistors for lower than 72 VDC. The systems also have a load shed relay that keeps essential DC loads all the way to zero voltage.

The 480 VAC HEP provides heat, air conditioning, and waste evacuation. It also is transformed down for lighting, some of the control functions and the 120 VAC convenience outlets.

oldtimer

 

[gmushial]

And again, many thanks for the illuminating reply. ... so it sounds like my impression of the 480v being used for the heavy loads and the dc for the lighter ones was mistaken - it sounds like most of what a passenger sees is in fact running off the 480v ac (or transformed down products of it). Two further questions if I might: 1) what functions does the battery backed up DC service in a car, and 2) bringing this back to the original thread topic: as long as the interface to the 480vac 3ph is maintained, is there any reason that a new car (ViewlinerII) can't reengineer electrical usage within a car (it sounds like there is a mishmash of voltages and ac or dc within a car, ie, one legacy system upon another), or would any benefits of such be offset by now having a new maintenance scheme just for those new cars and still the old one for the older cars, and the costs associated with having two? ... sneaking in a third question: is there anywhere on the web one can read about the electrical usage within an (American) train?

yet again - many thanks - greg

 

[jis]

AFAIK the battery power supply is mostly used for providing lighting in the cars when HEP is out.

There really is not much mish mash of voltage. From a customer perspective there is basically 480 that they don;t get to see directly, but only in the form of HVAC, and 120.

With the battery driven subsystem, there is a choice of having parallel DC circuits with DC lights. but I think these days probably the same lights are used but a circuit with a subset of them in the car that is powered at the same 120v AC through an static converter/transformer pack.

 

[Bus Nut]

Hate the colors chosen but at least that means when they eventually refurb they can chose more pleasing, shopworn colors (blue, orange) than some sort of ill burgundy/purple heathered mess. (Looks 1990s hospital.)

 

[gmushial]

AFAIK the battery power supply is mostly used for providing lighting in the cars when HEP is out.
There really is not much mish mash of voltage. From a customer perspective there is basically 480 that they don;t get to see directly, but only in the form of HVAC, and 120.

With the battery driven subsystem, there is a choice of having parallel DC circuits with DC lights. but I think these days probably the same lights are used but a circuit with a subset of them in the car that is powered at the same 120v AC through an static converter/transformer pack.

I wasn't so much thinking about what the customer sees, but what is actually present, (and thus has to be maintained) - was thinking that it might be more cost effective to run the heavy loads off the 480 and run the rest off of 120ac either "transformered" down from the 480 when it is present, or (pure sine wave) inverted up from the batteries when it is not. W/re mishmash - from "oldtimer's" post I think I see allusions to at least five voltages present in the car, ie, 2.5x the voltages which have to be maintained, and also, probably legacy loads which have become specialty items and might be more cost effectively replaced with more modern 120ac loads. [also would wonder about replacing the 72v NiCads packs with 48v NiMH ones - more standard off the shelf items, easier to interface to off the shelf inverters, and 2.5x the energy density.] ... what I think I'm seeing parallels what has happened to the IBM mainframes - in a desire to provide better performance super-web servers, yet still be able to run legacy software from the 1960s (s/360 days), they have produced an instruction set that is 5x the complexity of what has been there historically, and has actually raised the complexity to the point that few programmers will be able to grapple with it... sometimes one has to step away from the existing solutions/implementations and start afresh [understanding that the car-boundary interfaces can't be changed]. ... on one of our software products, some functions which were present in version 2, which became depreciated in version 3, in spite of the screams of their absolute necessity by some, simply eliminated them in version 4 [apologizing to those that "needed" them, suggested that they simply stay on ver 3... turns out that 80%+ upgraded to ver 4 anyway].... change can be difficult, but if managed properly can be made almost painless. ... this is all about the operating costs and trying to keep them as low a possible.

 

[jis]

I don't know the details of Superliners per se.

The new Bombardier MLVs that NJT just acquired is basically just 480v HVAC and all other devices and lights are run off of 120v AC. The power source for 120v AC circuits may be from HEP when it is on, or from battery. Not all circuits are fed from the battery, only certain small subset of circuits and operational devices are fed from battery via static inverter/transformer when HEP is out, and they also go through, a series of reduction in load by switching of select less important circuits as the battery discharges.

 

[gmushial]

I don't know the details of Superliners per se.
The new Bombardier MLVs that NJT just acquired is basically just 480v HVAC and all other devices and lights are run off of 120v AC. The power source for 120v AC circuits may be from HEP when it is on, or from battery. Not all circuits are fed from the battery, only certain small subset of circuits and operational devices are fed from battery via static inverter/transformer when HEP is out, and they also go through, a series of reduction in load by switching of select less important circuits as the battery discharges.

This is what I'd expect for a system that was designed from scratch, today. Thus my question/quandary above w/re the multiple voltages etc, and wondering if such wasn't an opportunity for the SL2's.

 

[jis]

I don't know the details of Superliners per se.
The new Bombardier MLVs that NJT just acquired is basically just 480v HVAC and all other devices and lights are run off of 120v AC. The power source for 120v AC circuits may be from HEP when it is on, or from battery. Not all circuits are fed from the battery, only certain small subset of circuits and operational devices are fed from battery via static inverter/transformer when HEP is out, and they also go through, a series of reduction in load by switching of select less important circuits as the battery discharges.

This is what I'd expect for a system that was designed from scratch, today. Thus my question/quandary above w/re the multiple voltages etc, and wondering if such wasn't an opportunity for the SL2's.

I'm sure SL2's electrical design is a clean slate design and does not necessarily carry forward all the crud from a 20 year old design in SL1s

 

[bgiaquin]

So will the Diners be #d 8401-8425?