TSA spreading its wings

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In Texas ALL Certified LE Officers have jurisdiction anywhere in the State and there are literally hundreds of LE Agencies!
Here in Austin (65% of the City Budget goes to Public Safety) we have the DPS (Highway Patrol Division/Texas Rangers)Inteligince Division/Investigations Division/Drug Enforcement Division etc) State Capitol Police/University of Texas Police/Austin Community College Police/AISD School Police/Airport Police/Austin Police Department/Park Rangers/Travis County Sheriffs/Constables and Deputy Constables/DA Investigators and Police/Court Police/ all the Suburbs around here (about 20 different ones all have their own Police/Williamson County Sheriff/Hays County Sheriff/Bastrop County Sherriff and all of their assorted Constables, Deputies, School Districts and a Partridge in a Pear Tree! :eek:

And all the various Alphabet LE Agencies from the Feds! Boy do we feel Safe, not a single Crime is ever committed around here, it's Safe I tell you, Safe! :help:
California is different. Any peace officer is allowed to act if there is a danger or if the perp might get away, but routine juridiction for local law enforcement is limited to geographic boundaries. And when there's theoretically overlapping jurisdiction (like a county sheriff's dept) they rarely step on toes by performing routine enforcement in another place where another agency (city police) has "primary jurisdiction". The law specifies that CHP, UC Police, CSU Police, Dept of Corrections, Dept of Fish and Game (I've heard of them making traffic stops too), state Parks and Recreation officers, specified Forestry and Fire Protection officers, and (I kid you not) California State Fair Police have authority throughout the state.

The law says that UC Police has a primary duty within campuses and 1 mile from campuses, but I know they don't step on toes even within that 1 mile boundary, and local police don't make it a habit of patrolling campuses. It does get interesting when they're preparing for riots (and I've seen cops in riot gear).
 
In Texas ALL Certified LE Officers have jurisdiction anywhere in the State and there are literally hundreds of LE Agencies!

Here in Austin (65% of the City Budget goes to Public Safety) we have the DPS (Highway Patrol Division/Texas Rangers)Inteligince Division/Investigations Division/Drug Enforcement Division etc) State Capitol Police/University of Texas Police/Austin Community College Police/AISD School Police/Airport Police/Austin Police Department/Park Rangers/Travis County Sheriffs/Constables and Deputy Constables/DA Investigators and Police/Court Police/ all the Suburbs around here (about 20 different ones all have their own Police/Williamson County Sheriff/Hays County Sheriff/Bastrop County Sherriff and all of their assorted Constables, Deputies, School Districts and a Partridge in a Pear Tree! :eek:

And all the various Alphabet LE Agencies from the Feds! Boy do we feel Safe, not a single Crime is ever committed around here, it's Safe I tell you, Safe! :help:
Yea and verily. We lived in Texas for a couple of years. There is plenty of complexity in government agencies to deal with. When it came to election time, School District, City, and State/Federal races required us to go to three different places to vote. At this point I have forgotten where the county races were voted, but I do remember it took visiting three different locations to hit them all.

If you want to truly be owerwhelmed with police presence I don't think any place can beat the District of Columbia. DC police force, Capital police force, Secret service, Federal protective service, WMATA police, of course Amtrak police, and probably several others I can't think of right now.
Every federal agency operates in DC, but I'd think State Dept Protective Detail has a lot of officers with all the embassies. All the various agency Office of the Inspector General departments are legally federal law enforcement.

In uniform, there's NPS LE rangers as well as US Park Police. USPP handle a lot of supplemental security for the President and visiting dignitaries. The Smithsonian has its own limited-powers police force (they also supplement the USPP at the National Mall), but apparently the National Zoo has a full-fledge police department.

101_1875.jpg
 
Uniformed Division of the Secret Service is in charge of protecting foreign diplomatic missions in Washington DC.
 
Wow, is that Zoo Trooper waiting on a Speeding Lion or Tiger?? Look like something out of Reno 911!! :giggle:

No Place like DC that's for sure! ;)
 
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Wow, is that Zoo Trooper waiting on a Speeding Lion or Tiger?? Look like something out of Reno 911!! :giggle:
No Place like DC that's for sure! ;)
I found that on a message board post. The guy who took the photo wanted to get a better look at the other side, but he took off on a call. Apparently that's an electric scooter. I suppose that makes sense since it's pretty quiet and they worry about noises upsetting the animals. Still - he looks rather eager.

And the National Zoo Police has apparently been around for over 120 years.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/AboutUs/History/police.cfm
NATIONAL ZOOLOGICAL PARK POLICE CELEBRATE 120 YEARS OF SERVICE

In August 2009, the National Zoo's police force celebrated its 120th year of dedication and service to all who visit, work, and live at the Zoo. The Police Department began as one of the original five law enforcement agencies in Washington, D.C., in 1889, with only two watchmen tasked to patrol the entire 163-acre facility. Over the past 12 decades, it has developed and expanded to become a substantially larger Federal Law Enforcement agency.

The Zoo's hard-working and professional group of men and women patrol both the Rock Creek facility in Northwest Washington, D.C. and the 3,200-acre Conservation and Research Center in Front Royal, Virginia. They encounter more than 3.5 million people visiting the Zoo throughout the year, many of whom are local residents, members of Congress, heads of state, and foreign dignitaries. As the needs of the Zoo community change, the National Zoological Park Police will dutifully offer its assistance and services—for the next 120 years and beyond.
 
Zoo police! That is awesome.
I'm a member of the Oakland Zoo. They have cars that sort of look like police vehicles, but it just says Public Safety/Zoo Security on the side. They don't have guns, but I suppose they can call Oakland Police (like they don't have anything better to do) any time.
 
Uniformed Division of the Secret Service is in charge of protecting foreign diplomatic missions in Washington DC.
I was thinking foreign dignitary protection from the State Department's Diplomatic Security Service. However, I guess they wouldn't go around protecting high level embassy staff, but major targets. Still - they provide security at State Dept offices as well as the Secretary of State's protection detail.

I've actually seen a cabinet level protection detail up close and personal at a private event. I was like 5 feet away from the Secretary of Commerce. He had two guys with the stereotypical earpieces. One was chubby and stone faced. The other guy was thin and couldn't stop smiling. I looked it up, and that detail is from the OIG office within the department.

Every cabinet level agency has internal law enforcement provide security details for their cabinet secretary. Homeland Security is probably Secret Service. Interior is from the US Park Police. State is Diplomatic Security Service. Still - some reports I've read question whether or not there's really any viable threat to the Secretary of Agriculture or other departments where most people have no idea who is in the position.
 
Considering that the reason for locking was the wild straying off topic, I am hoping that we can be a little more disciplined and actually address what I (and perhaps many of you all) consider to be a truly important topic of what we can do to:

(a) Help educate fellow Amtrak riders about what will keep them out of trouble when confronted with such a TSA or VIPER situation, based on their level of tolerance of invasion of private space etc.

(b) What we can do to collectively have an impact in communicating with the lawmakers and executors on what is and is not reasonable given the realities that we face today.

This needs to be done while minimizing emotional outbursts, since that is what causes a discussion to go off rails (folks here would understand the consequences of that way more than in some other groups).

Keep in mind also, that by merely bullying a discussion thread into submission using weird tactics of argument, ad hominem attacks and name calling is not going to change one single thing in the real world outside of it.

OK, now I shall descend from my 2 inch high soap box :D
 
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Well back on topic of security at Amtrak stations, I was at PVD early this morning to board the 95. There are three trains that leave within 10 minutes - a SB acela, SB regional and the 66 going north.

Once again I observed the same two female Amtrak PD officers. They stood around observing and then around 6:35 am started going through the station and swiping bags for explosives.

They did not swipe my bag as I headed to the platform when they started. They move counter clockwise around the benches which are positioned in a circle in the middle of the waiting area.
 
Still - I hear a lot of people talk about taking Amtrak instead of flying to avoid the security circus at airports. I understand the aversion to being searched. It isn't routine on Amtrak, but it can happen. I don't believe random searches of luggage are common (it's happened when I've flown) on Amtrak, but I suppose they can happen.

What I don't understand is an almost militant attitude about being searched. However, there are situation where someone doing something totally innocent can be searched on the street and has no means of opting out. Maybe taking Amtrak usually gets around TSA, but you'd still need to walk though stations with law enforcement doing what they normally do. It's great to learn what your rights are as well as the limits of those rights.
 
If you want to truly be owerwhelmed with police presence I don't think any place can beat the District of Columbia. DC police force, Capital police force, Secret service, Federal protective service, WMATA police, of course Amtrak police, and probably several others I can't think of right now.
I grew up in the DC area and have spent a majority of my life here, and wouldn't even begin to try and name the insane number of law enforcenment entities that exist in the greater DC area. The number would be interesting, and scary.

Amtrak Police Chief Hanson worked for Washington's Metro Transit Police for 27 years, rising up through the ranks. She is what I would call a 'Washington Insider' and I'm sure knows many many people involved in law enforcement in the area. I'd be real surprised if some of those folks don't work for TSA. She is not Former Chief O'Connor.

Here is a link to a message from her, at The Amtrak Police Department's website, and here is a quote from it:

The Amtrak Police Department is a national police force committed to protecting the passengers, employees, and patrons of Amtrak. We achieve this effort by working closely with the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) and other federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies across the country, and by collaborating with our counterparts across the globe; sharing best practices and other vital information.
 
Two TSA oficers accompanied two Amtrak LE's, canine division, on a NER I was on from WAS to BWI, a few weeks ago. They stayed in the AmCafe for the entire trip, did no overt searching or sniffing, ALL got out at BWI.

For all I know, the TSA officers may have been commuting to work at BWI, but the didn't "seem" in any rush to leave platform at BWI.

My ride was waiting, so was a cold beer, so I didn't hang around to snoop.
 
What I don't understand is an almost militant attitude about being searched. However, there are situation where someone doing something totally innocent can be searched on the street and has no means of opting out. Maybe taking Amtrak usually gets around TSA, but you'd still need to walk though stations with law enforcement doing what they normally do. It's great to learn what your rights are as well as the limits of those rights.
Yep. I wholeheartedly agree. I think it is very important for us to understand exactly what the currently accepted practices are as upheld in courts.

This is not to pass any judgement on someone who chooses to enter into an act of civil disobedience as a protest. However, it is unfair to characterize everyone who is trying to lead a normal daily life as a "sheepy" or whatever other pejorative term one chooses, simply because they don't share ones own attitude towards such things. As I said before name calling is not going to win friends to your cause. Reasoned arguments might.

But also, having personally known the leadership of AU, I am almost certain that it is not the purpose or goal of AU to facilitate organization of mass civil disobedience. So if you believe that is what you are trying to organize, you are probably are at the wrong place. Civilized discourse to argue the points with lawmakers and legitimate lobbying activities would be OK I suppose. The Moderators can chime in to clearly state the limits.
 
This is not to pass any judgement on someone who chooses to enter into an act of civil disobedience as a protest. However, it is unfair to characterize everyone who is trying to lead a normal daily life as a "sheepy" or whatever other pejorative term one chooses, simply because they don't share ones own attitude towards such things. As I said before name calling is not going to win friends to your cause. Reasoned arguments might.
But also, having personally known the leadership of AU, I am almost certain that it is not the purpose or goal of AU to facilitate organization of mass civil disobedience. So if you believe that is what you are trying to organize, you are probably are at the wrong place. Civilized discourse to argue the points with lawmakers and legitimate lobbying activities would be OK I suppose. The Moderators can chime in to clearly state the limits.
Exactly!!!! I do not for the life of me understand why those of us who don't intend to engage in acts of civil disobedience have to be subject to name-calling simply because we don't choose the same course of action. Someone does that to me and the LAST thing I'll do is pay any attention to their cause.
 
Well back on topic of security at Amtrak stations, I was at PVD early this morning to board the 95. There are three trains that leave within 10 minutes - a SB acela, SB regional and the 66 going north.
Once again I observed the same two female Amtrak PD officers. They stood around observing and then around 6:35 am started going through the station and swiping bags for explosives.

They did not swipe my bag as I headed to the platform when they started. They move counter clockwise around the benches which are positioned in a circle in the middle of the waiting area.
I also have seen the APD explosive sniffing dogs at PVD making the rounds. They are unobtrusive and I'm glad to see them! :) (And you did say APD in your post.)
 
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In Texas ALL Certified LE Officers have jurisdiction anywhere in the State and there are literally hundreds of LE Agencies!
Here in Austin (65% of the City Budget goes to Public Safety) we have the DPS (Highway Patrol Division/Texas Rangers)Inteligince Division/Investigations Division/Drug Enforcement Division etc) State Capitol Police/University of Texas Police/Austin Community College Police/AISD School Police/Airport Police/Austin Police Department/Park Rangers/Travis County Sheriffs/Constables and Deputy Constables/DA Investigators and Police/Court Police/ all the Suburbs around here (about 20 different ones all have their own Police/Williamson County Sheriff/Hays County Sheriff/Bastrop County Sherriff and all of their assorted Constables, Deputies, School Districts and a Partridge in a Pear Tree! :eek:

And all the various Alphabet LE Agencies from the Feds! Boy do we feel Safe, not a single Crime is ever committed around here, it's Safe I tell you, Safe! :help:
California is different. Any peace officer is allowed to act if there is a danger or if the perp might get away, but routine juridiction for local law enforcement is limited to geographic boundaries. And when there's theoretically overlapping jurisdiction (like a county sheriff's dept) they rarely step on toes by performing routine enforcement in another place where another agency (city police) has "primary jurisdiction". The law specifies that CHP, UC Police, CSU Police, Dept of Corrections, Dept of Fish and Game (I've heard of them making traffic stops too), state Parks and Recreation officers, specified Forestry and Fire Protection officers, and (I kid you not) California State Fair Police have authority throughout the state.

The law says that UC Police has a primary duty within campuses and 1 mile from campuses, but I know they don't step on toes even within that 1 mile boundary, and local police don't make it a habit of patrolling campuses. It does get interesting when they're preparing for riots (and I've seen cops in riot gear).
I have seen the CSUN campus police routinely respond to drug store/stationary store/ supermarket robberies within that one mile jurisdiction.

Train topic: Metrolink and the MTA encourages LE to travel in uniform off duty on their trains by allowing them to do so without buying tickets.
 
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In Texas ALL Certified LE Officers have jurisdiction anywhere in the State and there are literally hundreds of LE Agencies!

Here in Austin (65% of the City Budget goes to Public Safety) we have the DPS (Highway Patrol Division/Texas Rangers)Inteligince Division/Investigations Division/Drug Enforcement Division etc) State Capitol Police/University of Texas Police/Austin Community College Police/AISD School Police/Airport Police/Austin Police Department/Park Rangers/Travis County Sheriffs/Constables and Deputy Constables/DA Investigators and Police/Court Police/ all the Suburbs around here (about 20 different ones all have their own Police/Williamson County Sheriff/Hays County Sheriff/Bastrop County Sherriff and all of their assorted Constables, Deputies, School Districts and a Partridge in a Pear Tree! :eek:

And all the various Alphabet LE Agencies from the Feds! Boy do we feel Safe, not a single Crime is ever committed around here, it's Safe I tell you, Safe! :help:
California is different. Any peace officer is allowed to act if there is a danger or if the perp might get away, but routine juridiction for local law enforcement is limited to geographic boundaries. And when there's theoretically overlapping jurisdiction (like a county sheriff's dept) they rarely step on toes by performing routine enforcement in another place where another agency (city police) has "primary jurisdiction". The law specifies that CHP, UC Police, CSU Police, Dept of Corrections, Dept of Fish and Game (I've heard of them making traffic stops too), state Parks and Recreation officers, specified Forestry and Fire Protection officers, and (I kid you not) California State Fair Police have authority throughout the state.

The law says that UC Police has a primary duty within campuses and 1 mile from campuses, but I know they don't step on toes even within that 1 mile boundary, and local police don't make it a habit of patrolling campuses. It does get interesting when they're preparing for riots (and I've seen cops in riot gear).
I have seen the CSUN campus police routinely respond to drug store/stationary store/ supermarket robberies within that one mile jurisdiction.

Train topic: Metrolink and the MTA encourages LE to travel in uniform off duty on their trains by allowing them to do so without buying tickets.
I live near Berkeley and went to school there. I looked up the MOU with the city of Berkeley, and they've agreed to a joint off-campus patrol area just off the south side of campus. This is an area where it's pretty clear that the foot and vehicle traffic has a lot to do with the campus being there.

http://police.berkeley.edu/about_UCPD/jurisdiction.html
By mutual agreement in December 1969, the City and the University established a joint UCPD/BPD Patrol in the South Campus area as a cooperative venture to reduce, by preventative patrol, the high incidence of serious crime and disorder in this densely populated area. This evolved in to the current program consisting of bicycle and foot patrols seven days a week, as staffing permits.

Not sure who patrols the Berkeley Amtrak station though. I suppose it's Berkeley PD. The parking spaces are metered and that's clearly a city responsibility. I suppose Alameda County Sheriff's Dept might also patrol the bus stop at the station, especially with a lot of people waiting right at the bus stop.
 
This is not to pass any judgement on someone who chooses to enter into an act of civil disobedience as a protest. However, it is unfair to characterize everyone who is trying to lead a normal daily life as a "sheepy" or whatever other pejorative term one chooses, simply because they don't share ones own attitude towards such things. As I said before name calling is not going to win friends to your cause.
Have you not just done something similar by blurring the lines between merely standing firm for your rights and civil disobedience, or breaking the law as an act of protest? I do stand up for my Constitutional Rights, but leave breaking the law to make a point to others. I feel that painting us all with the same broad brush is an insult to me and many others like me.

Reasoned arguments might.
If only a few honest citizens always stand up for their rights, then the cops and courts mostly see those who do as lawbreakers who are trying to sail through loopholes in the law.

On the other hand if the majority of Americans took their Constitutional Rights to heart all the time, then the cops and courts would better understand that Americans really do value the Constitution and it would be a much healthier document today than it is.

--

Bud
 
I am hoping that we can be a little more disciplined and actually address what I (and perhaps many of you all) consider to be a truly important topic of what we can do to:
(a) Help educate fellow Amtrak riders about what will keep them out of trouble when confronted with such a TSA or VIPER situation, based on their level of tolerance of invasion of private space etc.
Having been through the TSA/DHS dragnet a hundred times or more I'm hard pressed to name something more physically or emotionally invasive that doesn't involve being housed on government property. As with the NSA, the danger of the TSA isn't just the power given to the agency itself but also the carefully created path they provide to warrantless search and seizure. Consider it this way...

The TSA is allowed to search anyone and everyone who intentionally or unwittingly falls into the TSA's ever changing dragnet, but we allow this because the TSA otherwise has limited powers and cannot arrest you or confiscate your possessions without permission.

On the other hand the police are allowed to arrest you or confiscate your possessions without permission but we accept this because they have limited powers to search you and are not permitted to do so without a warrant or probable cause.

However, if we let the TSA search you and your belongings and then hand you and your possessions over to the police then we've created a backdoor method for allowing search, seizure, and arrest without a warrant or probable cause. The NSA is also understood to be following a similar extrajudicial protocol. In my view this isn't a simple mistake or unintended unintended consequence. It's a carefully implemented stepping stone to a police state.

I realize that not everyone was raised to value freedom over safety, but for me this is a major setback to our liberties that I find extremely discouraging. If you take everything we've learned about the US government's actions in the post-911 period and boiled it down to a single sentence I think it would come out a bit like this...

"In order to save our freedoms we must first subvert and destroy them."

If we take the path of educating fellow riders on how best to conform with the directives and assumptions of our growing security apparatus in order to avoid being singled out for interest or punishment then what have we really accomplished? What more would even need to be said besides doing whatever you're told and never saying anything back?

(b) What we can do to collectively have an impact in communicating with the lawmakers and executors on what is and is not reasonable given the realities that we face today.
Is there any actual impact you'd like to have today's security process, or are we just supposed to guess?

This needs to be done while minimizing emotional outbursts, since that is what causes a discussion to go off rails (folks here would understand the consequences of that way more than in some other groups). Keep in mind also, that by merely bullying a discussion thread into submission using weird tactics of argument, ad hominem attacks and name calling is not going to change one single thing in the real world outside of it.
The person I've seen bullying others is the member who repeatedly insists that the TSA is in no way involved with Amtrak despite all evidence to the contrary. You can be as clear, calm, and careful as you like but he's not going to change his mind.
 
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