Train Jam CZ Feb 23

[Rover]

Watching the Truckee web cam, the Train Jam was 10 minutes late. The train did not stop at the station. I counted 2 engines and 10 other cars.

About 15 minutes before the Train Jam came through Truckee, 2 engines and a caboose came through, headed West. I could not tell if this was a snow plowing operation though.

 

[neroden]

So now we have a second train which has degenerated into a charter service where regular passengers are excluded. But hey, it's been cancelled without notice for weeks due to weather disruptions anyway, so it's not like it was usable for regular passengers.

This is... not exactly what you want to advertise to Congress when saying that Amtrak provides vital mobility needs. I mean the money is great and all, but it's just screaming "We are not real scheduled transportation". It makes it difficult to advocate to preserve said train service. It's not quite as bad as three a week, but it's the same sort of problem.

The problem is not, of course, having a large group charter a bunch of cars. The problem is eliminating scheduled service for everyone else. Without so much as an alert, even. "No alternative transportation will be provided." In other words, if you want to travel, take a car or an airplane. It's not a message Amtrak should be sending.

I realize a lot of the problem is due to a car shortage. So fix that. But more of it seems to be an attitude problem.

I hope the charter paid a premium over the costs of buying out all the seats individually, to reflect the cost of the extra lounge and the cost of the dimunition of goodwill. If they paid $11 million, that's great, it was probably worth it for Amtrak. I Have My Doubts; the Safety Patrol students pay about $540K and not all of that goes to Amtrak.

The Silver Meteor is profitable before overhead, so I guess Amtrak can do what it likes with it. But frankly this makes me want to remove the federal subsidy for the CZ (on a non-allocated direct-costs-only basis, it's about $10.4 million). Why am I subsidizing charter operations?

It's enough to make me want to micromanage Amtrak. Remember there's that stupid "no discounts larger than 50% of peak fare" rider? I'd like to add a rider saying "Amtrak shall not suspend sales of tickets or transportation between any pair of stations for the benefit of private charter services". You know, I suspect Congress would be sympathetic.

There are starting to be a growing collection of these services: services which Amtrak treats as hobby services and not as transportation. So much so that they sometimes don't even bother to mention when they're cancelled. I don't like this trend. Maybe Wick can turn it around.

 

[MikefromCrete]

What, Neorden wants to micromanage! What a surprise! (That's sarcasm, folks)

 

[Thirdrail7]

So now we have a second train which has degenerated into a charter service where regular passengers are excluded. But hey, it's been cancelled without notice for weeks due to weather disruptions anyway, so it's not like it was usable for regular passengers.

They are regular passengers. They just are part of a group. Groups ride Amtrak all year around and on a lot of routes. This group just happened to be larger than others.

This is... not exactly what you want to advertise to Congress when saying that Amtrak provides vital mobility needs. I mean the money is great and all, but it's just screaming "We are not real scheduled transportation". It makes it difficult to advocate to preserve said train service. It's not quite as bad as three a week, but it's the same sort of problem.

Yes. Congress would hate the idea of a sold out train that traversed 2400 miles . I'm sure they prefer paying to run a train that is half empty along the route.

The problem is not, of course, having a large group charter a bunch of cars. The problem is eliminating scheduled service for everyone else. Without so much as an alert, even. "No alternative transportation will be provided." In other words, if you want to travel, take a car or an airplane. It's not a message Amtrak should be sending.

Why do you need an alert? The train is running and why would there be an alert for a sold out train? Why would they schedule alternative transportation for a sold out train. the Adirondack sells out most Friday's and Sunday's in the summer. The Ethan Allen sells out on a lot of Fridays. Do passengers get an alert and alternate transportation for their sold out train? No, because that is all this is: A train that normally has room, but on this trip it doesn't and since the riders are end to end, they are treating it just like other trains that have no work and are discharging passengers. The premise is not that uncommon but you're not used to seeing it, particularly for such a long distance.

I realize a lot of the problem is due to a car shortage. So fix that. But more of it seems to be an attitude problem.

We've covered this kind of thing before. Assuming they put together a special, the hosts are not required to run extra service. With the meltdown that was occurring out west, they would have canceled this move just as easily as they canceled the Reno Fun train. The passengers expecting that service had it pulled and there are no repercussions since it is not a scheduled train. It is extra service. At least this way, there was good chance the train could get through and there are penalties if it canceled for certain reasons.

I hope the charter paid a premium over the costs of buying out all the seats individually, to reflect the cost of the extra lounge and the cost of the dimunition of goodwill. If they paid $11 million, that's great, it was probably worth it for Amtrak. I Have My Doubts; the Safety Patrol students pay about $540K and not all of that goes to Amtrak.

You're good at math and figures. Why don't you break down the average revenue per trip on this train and I'm sure that the people that can see how much revenue came from this train will say "higher or lower."

I'm willing to bet they made more money on this trip because the numbers on this train dwarf the numbers of riders on any single train along this route for months (and months) to come.

But, if it makes you feel better, they paid the extra staff and catering.

The Silver Meteor is profitable before overhead, so I guess Amtrak can do what it likes with it. But frankly this makes me want to remove the federal subsidy for the CZ (on a non-allocated direct-costs-only basis, it's about $10.4 million). Why am I subsidizing charter operations?

Well, that is the ultimate question. Why does PhillyAmtrakFan have to subsidize riders in West Virginia? Why does Tennessee Traveler have to subsidize the costs of upgrading catenary in NJ that he'll likely not use? Why do I have to subsidize snowbirds moving their vehicles up and down the east coast to avoid the cold of winters in the NE and the heat of summer in the SE? Why is SarahZ subsidizing the Autumn Express?

This goes back to what is Amtrak? What can it do for people? What role does it serve for people? Is it essential travel or a joyride for gamers? it depends on your perspective but the gamers pay for the subsidy as well. So, if they decided to cash in once a year, I don't begrudge them. Who knows how much of that will become spill revenue? How many will ride again? How many will ride other routes, with their families? How much exposure is Amtrak getting from their twitter feed?

It's enough to make me want to micromanage Amtrak. Remember there's that stupid "no discounts larger than 50% of peak fare" rider? I'd like to add a rider saying "Amtrak shall not suspend sales of tickets or transportation between any pair of stations for the benefit of private charter services". You know, I suspect Congress would be sympathetic.

I would suspect you'd be laughed at. What does that even mean? So, if the Au Pairs that used to show up monthly on the Vermonter reserve their space from EWR to STM results in sold out conditions at intermediate spots, that would meet the criteria you just stated. You're actually advocating turning done what has become repeat business with guaranteed revenue, hoping that every day passengers fill the void?

Congress would laugh at you because they are the ones that want Amtrak to explore new ways of making money and expanding opportunities..and this is one way. What started as a smaller group has emerged into a large group and if they start the tradition of showing up once a year, that is indeed good thing. Another example is the Autumn Express, which may cover its direct costs, but also wreaks havoc on other trains bu eliminating stops (ABE and NRK take a both) and causing sold out conditions on other trains since the equipment is diverted elsewhere. Same goes for the Denver Ski train, the Reno fun train, the Spencer train, the NJ Chamber Of Commerce, etc. They all impact other trains, but they all can lead to spill revenue and are (usually) guaranteed revenue.

There are starting to be a growing collection of these services: services which Amtrak treats as hobby services and not as transportation. So much so that they sometimes don't even bother to mention when they're cancelled. I don't like this trend. Maybe Wick can turn it around.

I'm sure Wick, (for how ever long he hangs around) would like the numbers on this train. This is especially true as the leader of railroad, who no doubts sees the opportunity for repeat business and sold out conditions on a long distance train. This aren't rail buffs that are boarding this train. These people are at work and are using the train to work on their product. It is about the transportation and is consistent with the theme of being able to relax and work on the train. This group could have taken a plane but they chose to make a 2400 mile trip on a train...so they can work. It is nice to have that option and that is something you can take to people.

I'm willing to bet a true business person would like the idea of their product selling out for a change.

 

[Rover]

Years ago, when I rode the city bus to work, one dark rainy winter morning, it was raining, and the scheduled bus that I would have liked to have boarded, just passed me by. You see, although it was scheduled, it was full that morning, without nary a seat, or even a standing space available. Sometime scheduled transportation gets sold out.

During Texas-OU weekend, good luck on trying to board the light rail at certain stops. The trains are likely full to capacity on their way to the Fairgrounds.

Sometimes regularly scheduled transportation gets sold out, for whatever reason.

As to Amtrak, until the US Govt. gets serious about long distance double-tracked rail, what do you expect??

Look at the European model, where there the passenger rail runs smoothly.

The political hold that the railway freight lines hold, will never be altered, and passenger rail, except in a few NE corridors, will just be on the back bench, forever, imo.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Train Jam arrive early.

 

[KnightRail]

So now we have a second train which has degenerated into a charter service where regular passengers are excluded. But hey, it's been cancelled without notice for weeks due to weather disruptions anyway, so it's not like it was usable for regular passengers.

They are regular passengers. They just are part of a group. Groups ride Amtrak all year around and on a lot of routes. This group just happened to be larger than others.

This is... not exactly what you want to advertise to Congress when saying that Amtrak provides vital mobility needs. I mean the money is great and all, but it's just screaming "We are not real scheduled transportation". It makes it difficult to advocate to preserve said train service. It's not quite as bad as three a week, but it's the same sort of problem.

Yes. Congress would hate the idea of a sold out train that traversed 2400 miles . I'm sure they prefer paying to run a train that is half empty along the route.

The problem is not, of course, having a large group charter a bunch of cars. The problem is eliminating scheduled service for everyone else. Without so much as an alert, even. "No alternative transportation will be provided." In other words, if you want to travel, take a car or an airplane. It's not a message Amtrak should be sending.

Why do you need an alert? The train is running and why would there be an alert for a sold out train? Why would they schedule alternative transportation for a sold out train. the Adirondack sells out most Friday's and Sunday's in the summer. The Ethan Allen sells out on a lot of Fridays. Do passengers get an alert and alternate transportation for their sold out train? No, because that is all this is: A train that normally has room, but on this trip it doesn't and since the riders are end to end, they are treating it just like other trains that have no work and are discharging passengers. The premise is not that uncommon but you're not used to seeing it, particularly for such a long distance.

I realize a lot of the problem is due to a car shortage. So fix that. But more of it seems to be an attitude problem.

We've covered this kind of thing before. Assuming they put together a special, the hosts are not required to run extra service. With the meltdown that was occurring out west, they would have canceled this move just as easily as they canceled the Reno Fun train. The passengers expecting that service had it pulled and there are no repercussions since it is not a scheduled train. It is extra service. At least this way, there was good chance the train could get through and there are penalties if it canceled for certain reasons.

I hope the charter paid a premium over the costs of buying out all the seats individually, to reflect the cost of the extra lounge and the cost of the dimunition of goodwill. If they paid $11 million, that's great, it was probably worth it for Amtrak. I Have My Doubts; the Safety Patrol students pay about $540K and not all of that goes to Amtrak.

You're good at math and figures. Why don't you break down the average revenue per trip on this train and I'm sure that the people that can see how much revenue came from this train will say "higher or lower."

I'm willing to bet they made more money on this trip because the numbers on this train dwarf the numbers of riders on any single train along this route for months (and months) to come.

But, if it makes you feel better, they paid the extra staff and catering.

The Silver Meteor is profitable before overhead, so I guess Amtrak can do what it likes with it. But frankly this makes me want to remove the federal subsidy for the CZ (on a non-allocated direct-costs-only basis, it's about $10.4 million). Why am I subsidizing charter operations?

Well, that is the ultimate question. Why does PhillyAmtrakFan have to subsidize riders in West Virginia? Why does Tennessee Traveler have to subsidize the costs of upgrading catenary in NJ that he'll likely not use? Why do I have to subsidize snowbirds moving their vehicles up and down the east coast to avoid the cold of winters in the NE and the heat of summer in the SE? Why is SarahZ subsidizing the Autumn Express?

This goes back to what is Amtrak? What can it do for people? What role does it serve for people? Is it essential travel or a joyride for gamers? it depends on your perspective but the gamers pay for the subsidy as well. So, if they decided to cash in once a year, I don't begrudge them. Who knows how much of that will become spill revenue? How many will ride again? How many will ride other routes, with their families? How much exposure is Amtrak getting from their twitter feed?

It's enough to make me want to micromanage Amtrak. Remember there's that stupid "no discounts larger than 50% of peak fare" rider? I'd like to add a rider saying "Amtrak shall not suspend sales of tickets or transportation between any pair of stations for the benefit of private charter services". You know, I suspect Congress would be sympathetic.

I would suspect you'd be laughed at. What does that even mean? So, if the Au Pairs that used to show up monthly on the Vermonter reserve their space from EWR to STM results in sold out conditions at intermediate spots, that would meet the criteria you just stated. You're actually advocating turning done what has become repeat business with guaranteed revenue, hoping that every day passengers fill the void?

Congress would laugh at you because they are the ones that want Amtrak to explore new ways of making money and expanding opportunities..and this is one way. What started as a smaller group has emerged into a large group and if they start the tradition of showing up once a year, that is indeed good thing. Another example is the Autumn Express, which may cover its direct costs, but also wreaks havoc on other trains bu eliminating stops (ABE and NRK take a both) and causing sold out conditions on other trains since the equipment is diverted elsewhere. Same goes for the Denver Ski train, the Reno fun train, the Spencer train, the NJ Chamber Of Commerce, etc. They all impact other trains, but they all can lead to spill revenue and are (usually) guaranteed revenue.

There are starting to be a growing collection of these services: services which Amtrak treats as hobby services and not as transportation. So much so that they sometimes don't even bother to mention when they're cancelled. I don't like this trend. Maybe Wick can turn it around.

I'm sure Wick, (for how ever long he hangs around) would like the numbers on this train. This is especially true as the leader of railroad, who no doubts sees the opportunity for repeat business and sold out conditions on a long distance train. This aren't rail buffs that are boarding this train. These people are at work and are using the train to work on their product. It is about the transportation and is consistent with the theme of being able to relax and work on the train. This group could have taken a plane but they chose to make a 2400 mile trip on a train...so they can work. It is nice to have that option and that is something you can take to people.

I'm willing to bet a true business person would like the idea of their product selling out for a change.

Bravo! It's amazing that such a grand-slam success has to even be justified. The operation of this train was a big win.

 

[Seaboard92]

The only other working plan would be to run it as a special train with either Amtrak equipment or PVs. But like Third Rail said BNSF and UP are not required to handle the train. But it would be guaranteed revenue as well.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Trains can and do sell out.

This group is now big enough to book a full length peak summer time trainset. There was a question of if any seats were available this year, and unlike early Train Jams, this year is No. They booked the full trainset.

So unlike the safety patrol which can't book early due to school board issues. This group can book 11 month and one day early before the tickets are even seen by the public.

Train sold out. It happens.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Going thur the Tweets.

Common issues were food service short coming.

Lack of showers.

Lack of flat sleeping.

Hopefully the organization will share feed back with Amtrak. A simple post trip survey would be sweet.

 

[Train2104]

Going thur the Tweets.

Common issues were food service short coming.

Lack of showers.

Lack of flat sleeping.

Hopefully the organization will share feed back with Amtrak. A simple post trip survey would be sweet.

Why would food service be an issue if the train has the same number of passengers onboard when it's sold out in the summer? The constant-snacking endemic to hackathons?

Given that there were coach seats at the end and roomettes sold out ridiculously early, it would make more sense for Amtrak to add more sleepers next year, charge the group more for them, and have the group pass the cost on to the rider. Heck, given the fact that the majority of the crowd is young people you probably don't even need extra attendants. When I took my first sleeper ride last year on the CZ in the transdorm, I never made use of the attendant's (personal) services, I just figured the bed out on my own. And in retrospect, that was probably a good idea, since getting everything out of the way to enable the beds to move was hard enough with one of us working and the other squeezing out of the way.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Why would food service be an issue if the train has the same number of passengers onboard when it's sold out in the summer? The constant-snacking endemic to hackathons?

A) Few trains start full and stay full for entire trip.

B) Tweets are not very scientific.

Long lines for coffee, long lines for breakfast, and Food runs by passengers at stops, were mentioned

Standard issues on full trains. Things to work on.

Amtrak put some work into this train. Summer time train length. Extra Lounge. Pressure on the host (it seems).

Pressure to get rested crews. Even had a snow plow leading the way for a bit. Not truly certain but it seem someone in the chain of command want a good run for this group. It help they have a sponsored event, not just mob traveling.

So my OP was about get this group a great experience, and looks like they did. It does not mean it can be not be better next year. Or that there was nothing to improve upon.

.

 

[west point]

This CAL Z situation really brings up the question of lack of equipment. Not enough equipment to run an extra section ? RR agreement and crew availability a question. Run extra equipment on rear / front of train . Probably front but what of Denver back in and may not be able to clear north end interlocking(s) ? EMY should be long enough ? What about any servicing needed enroute including 1000 mile inspection ?

Then the inability to cover the cancellations of CAL Z by SW Chief and Coast Starlight ? Here it is low travel season and Amtrak unable to meet any surge fleet needs ?

 

[Thirdrail7]

The only other working plan would be to run it as a special train with either Amtrak equipment or PVs. But like Third Rail said BNSF and UP are not required to handle the train. But it would be guaranteed revenue as well.

This CAL Z situation really brings up the question of lack of equipment. Not enough equipment to run an extra section ? RR agreement and crew availability a question. Run extra equipment on rear / front of train . Probably front but what of Denver back in and may not be able to clear north end interlocking(s) ? EMY should be long enough ? What about any servicing needed enroute including 1000 mile inspection ?

Then the inability to cover the cancellations of CAL Z by SW Chief and Coast Starlight ? Here it is low travel season and Amtrak unable to meet any surge fleet needs ?

These two are semi-related so I'll address them at the same time. A lack of a surge fleet does not mean that there isn't the ability to run an extra section nor does it mean an extra section is guaranteed revenue. At what point do you price yourself out of contention? Adding additional train may not only meet resistance with the hosts, but it may also hinder the groups ability to travel. One of the things that makes this train palatable to the group is it is an existing train. The crew is in place, the equipment is in place, the schedule is in place and the operating agreement is in place. It is one thing to spring for a few attendants. It is another to spring for 2400 miles of diesels, fuel, crews and host fees.

That may drive them away from the train. While some may say "so be it" and "if they want to take over an entire train, they should pay for the entire operation," you may have turned away years over future revenue. The seeds that were planted for this trip have germinated. Hopefully, it will blossom into a yearly tradition and you can have a train that is full, end to end.

Furthermore, there is still a limit on cars through Denver, so it isn't just a matter of adding additional equipment to an existing train.

It was definitely interesting watching this train progress. It was up an hour at its peak before running into the snowy areas. It fell behind due to the plowing operations observed by Rover.

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

I not sure this was the full summer consist. When I observed the train on MH Cam as it departed Chicago it appeared to be the Winter consist(two sleepers and two coaches) with the extra SSL at the end. I am assuming this equipment will turn and be the CZ 6 departing Emeryville tomorrow 2/26.

Not related, but in watching the Galesburg Railroad Museum cams tonight the 6 hour late CZ 6 arriving today had three extra coaches at the end. I don't know if those coaches had passengers. Since the doors did not open in Galesburg stop, I assume they were dead heading back to Chicago.

 

[Triley]

I not sure this was the full summer consist. When I observed the train on MH Cam as it departed Chicago it appeared to be the Winter consist(two sleepers and two coaches) with the extra SSL at the end. I am assuming this equipment will turn and be the CZ 6 departing Emeryville tomorrow 2/26.

Very wrong. Transdorm, two sleepers, diner, lounge, three coaches, lounge.

And yes, it will be returning as 6(26). No the extra lounge will not be in service.

 

[chakk]

Trains can and do sell out.

This group is now big enough to book a full length peak summer time trainset. There was a question of if any seats were available this year, and unlike early Train Jams, this year is No. They booked the full trainset.

So unlike the safety patrol which can't book early due to school board issues. This group can book 11 month and one day early before the tickets are even seen by the public.

Train sold out. It happens.

And it sold out in 30 minutes after the first coach seats and sleeper berths went on sale last November.

 

[chakk]

Years ago, when I rode the city bus to work, one dark rainy winter morning, it was raining, and the scheduled bus that I would have liked to have boarded, just passed me by. You see, although it was scheduled, it was full that morning, without nary a seat, or even a standing space available. Sometime scheduled transportation gets sold out.

Sometimes regularly scheduled transportation gets sold out, for whatever reason.

As to Amtrak, until the US Govt. gets serious about long distance double-tracked rail, what do you expect??

<snip<imo.

Similar thing happened to me in the Colorado Rockies a few years ago. Although I had a confirmed ticket in hand, a Greyhound driver refused to let me board his bus to get to Denver for a flight home that evening. He said all seats were occupied and he would not permit me to sit in the aisle or stairwell. So, I caught a greyhound going the opposite direction 20 minutes later to Glenwood Springs, where I caught the CZ to my home state. And that bus driver let me ride for free.

In the case of Train Jam, I feel 100% certain that no passenger who held a confirmed seat on 5(23) was denied boarding. The train was SOLD OUT, and Amtrak web site said so in no uncertain terms. I am also certain that no Amtrak phone agent circumvented their own rules about SOLD OUT trains to provide a ticket to someone to board said SOLD OUT train.

 

[Rover]

Why can't Amtrak accommodate the Train Jam with three engines to pull more sleepers. Isn't that what the CZ used to run back in the day anyway??? (I saw a freight train come through Truckee this afternoon with 9 engines..) I feel like Amtrak would just prefer the NW Corridor... but would like to dump all LD routes. The Govt. run passenger rail system in the US is not up to 1st world standards, is it??

 

[chakk]

The rebuilt Denver station does not have platforms long enough to hold a train with three more passenger cars.

The train would have to be split in two in the yard and the two sections brought in to separate tracks.

 

[Rover]

The rebuilt Denver station does not have platforms long enough to hold a train with three more passenger cars.

The train would have to be split in two in the yard and the two sections brought in to separate tracks.

Infrastructure!! :angry2:

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Train Jam 2018 is booking the CZ leave Chicago on March 15th.

Mark your calendars. Train Jam will return March 15-17, 2018. Tickets will go on sale Later this year!

Now this how you do it. Book the train before the tickets go on sale to the general public. If someone want to travel on March 15 they get a "Sold Out" message.

 

[KmH]

Funny.

February '18 is the furthest in advance Amtrak.com goes as far as ticketing today from my desktop computer.

It won't show March '18. Typical I think of Amtrak's normal limit of booking only 11 months in advance.

 

[CCC1007]

Funny.

February '18 is the furthest in advance Amtrak.com goes as far as ticketing today from my desktop computer.

It won't show March '18. Typical I think of Amtrak's normal limit of booking only 11 months in advance.

If Amtrak wanted to they can just fail to create the train in the normal inventory, a one day black hole where the special move happens...

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

One think that group sales does not have to wait for the 11 month out rule. Block it now, and no worry.