The Boeing MAX 8 Accidents

Discussion in 'Non-Rail Transportation' started by Dakota 400, Apr 5, 2019.

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  1. Apr 10, 2019 #26

    jis

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    It would appear that pressing said two buttons would take the very system that makes the MAX certifiable at all, off line. That sure sounds a bit weird if one asks me. I don't see any logic in the claim that there was no incident. Actually each time those buttons had to be pushed during a commercial flight, it was an incident, since it took the plane into an uncertifiable state. How many times were those buttons actually pressed by pilots transforming the plane into a non-certifiable aircraft while in commercial flight?

    Anyway, the speculation now is grounding for six to nine months notwithstanding all the brave pronouncements.
     
  2. Apr 10, 2019 #27

    Just-Thinking-51

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    Famous last words....

    The problem with design engineers is there not the ones who are using the equipment. So this system make prefect sense to a engineer but the operator is completely bewildered by it.

    Fact check the Max 8 and Max 9 have report of problems with the cruise control on takeoff. These reports are from US based airlines, and were report to the NASA website. The aircraft will pitch down with out pilot input. This was corrected when the pilot when manual. Not the same system as the one getting finger point in these crashes. Just another system that was designed to override the pilot if certain conditions occur.


    Boeing best solution would be to do a complete redesign of the aircraft to fit the new heavier engines. That is reported to take 10 years to do so. In 10 years the green plan may remove the need for short haul airplanes, Elon’s BFR could destroy the long haul flights.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  3. Apr 10, 2019 #28

    jis

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    Here is a reference to the article that references two entries in NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System about uncommanded pitch down movements after take-off with the autopilot engaged - see https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2...ecord-about-problems-with-the-737-max/584791/

    BTW, now share owners in Boeing are also getting into the act apparently:

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-e...ver-737-max-crashes-disclosures-idUKKCN1RL31D

    A short quote from an opinion posted on airliners.net by xmp125a in response to a pertinent question, which sort of rang a bell for me:

     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  4. Apr 11, 2019 #29

    jis

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    Interesting article in NY Times

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/11/business/boeing-faa-mcas.html

    Apparently neither FAA nor even Boeing's own test pilots were told about the final changes that created the death trap - i.e. changing the stab from 0 deg to 2.5 deg in 10 sec!

    And speaking of American pilots not worrying about it, here is what American Airlines Pilot's Union spokesman had to say about that:

    Some additional pertinent quotes.... [mods: if you think too much has been quoted please feel free to edit out all the quotes below. They are afterall, all in the article, but I thought it is worth highlighting]

    and

    If all this is true, frankly, this is beyond scandalous. As someone half-jokingly said, such things should not happen even in the lawn mower industry.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  5. Apr 11, 2019 #30

    Ryan

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    Contrast that from actual words from an actual pilot (taken from the ASRS reports quoted in the above article):
    "Proper training", my arse.
     
  6. Apr 21, 2019 #31

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  7. Apr 21, 2019 #32

    caravanman

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    I LOVE that article above. Seems sane and honest, written by someone who is both a pilot and software developer.
     
  8. Apr 24, 2019 #33

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  9. Apr 25, 2019 #34

    Dakota 400

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    As a Boeing shareholder, this is not good news. I still have faith in the Company, but I voted my proxy directly opposite to what the Board of Directors recommended. I hope other shareholders--including those institutions that hold far more shares than mine--do as well. Something at Boeing is amiss in Chicago. This is an excellent opportunity for shareholders to express our misgivings to the Company.
     
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  10. Apr 25, 2019 #35

    Bob Dylan

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    It's called Corporate Greed!
     
  11. Apr 30, 2019 #36

    jis

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    Oy vey! Boeing is digging itself deeper into the doo doo. This is even further beyond unbelievable. But truth sometimes is stranger than fiction...

    https://qz.com/1608362/boeing-says-it-didnt-deactivate-standalone-aoa-safety-alert/

    This one makes Boeing look like the dunce that couldn't shoot straight even if he tried really hard to do so. Sigh...

    Boeing's work on the software update is now looking more and more like another Brexit exercise I am afraid. :mad:
     
  12. May 1, 2019 #37

    Dakota 400

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    As a Boeing shareholder and consumer of their products, I am sorry to say that I agree. I have asked my broker to try to obtain the results of the Shareholders votes for 2019 and 2018 for comparison purposes. 2019: 34% voted for an Independent Chairman; that's a larger percentage than I recall from previous votes on this issue.

    I am not impressed by the CEO/Chairman's statement that a committee of Directors has been formed to deal with the issues now coming forth. Those Directors and their lack of proper involvement with the Company have responsibility for this mess and the loss of life that has occurred.
     
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  13. May 5, 2019 #38

    B757Guy

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    As someone with over 16,000 hours flying Boeing aircraft, including the 737, I am beyond disappointed with my onetime favorite company in the world...
     
  14. May 6, 2019 #39

    Just-Thinking-51

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    This right here is Boeing biggest problem. The lost of faith in a product. This story just keeps get worse, and worse. The only plus side is there not much choice of aircraft builders. Not sure if that can save the Boeing brand.
     
  15. May 7, 2019 #40

    Dakota 400

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    Nothing that I have posted ought to be construed as any of my thoughts are that the Boeing brand ought to fail. Too many success stories across many different Boeing Divisions for too many years: it's a Company that will overcome this adversity with the 737 MAX. However, I hope that this issue will serve as a Board of Directors and Senior Management "kick in the rear" to be better overseers of what is taking place beyond the Board Room and Corporate Office in Chicago.

    My Boeing shares are held by a financial firm. I am very unhappy, shall I say very, very unhappy, that I am unable to learn the results of the election proposals at the very recent Annual Meeting through my broker. As a result of the recent 737 MAX issues, I would like to know if other shareholders--large and small--agree with me that the Directors and Officers in Chicago need to be "more on task", perhaps, with other concerns other than long range, strategic plans.
     
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  16. May 7, 2019 #41

    Bob Dylan

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    People need to go to Jail over this one!
     
  17. May 7, 2019 #42

    jis

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    I think it is way more important to learn from this and make changes in the institutional behavior so that this is not repeated, than figuring out who to put in jail. Sending a bunch of people to jail while not understanding and fixing the institutional issues will fix nothing.
     
  18. May 7, 2019 #43

    Just-Thinking-51

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    How about just design a new aircraft that will be in balance with these engines. Not needed two different computers to take charge of the aircraft seem the best long term solution. Everything seem to be a work around for the bigger heavier engines.
     
  19. May 7, 2019 #44

    jis

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    There is such a plan but it is post 2025 introduction at the earliest.

    Incidentally, here is a new article from Seattle Times on the issue of Boeing culture and the CEO's responsibility etc.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...wn+future_5_6_2019&utm_term=Active+subscriber
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
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  20. May 7, 2019 #45

    Dakota 400

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    Thank you very much for posting this well written and informative article.

    I recall there were concerns raised at the time the Corporate Headquarters were moved from Seattle to Chicago. If my memory is correct, one of those concerns was getting senior management too far from the day to day engineering and work taking place in Renton. It now appears that those concerns may not have been too far off the mark.
     
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  21. May 13, 2019 #46

    MARC Rider

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    On the other hand, one way to focus executives' minds on the need to change institutional behavior is to send badly behaving executives to jail. People in charge think they can get away with anything, and they usually do. That doesn't help change institutional behavior.
     
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  22. May 16, 2019 at 4:36 PM #47

    jis

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    As the saga unfolds many take full advantage of the opportunity of damaging their credibility even further during a Congressional hearing....

    https://www.eturbonews.com/252204/s...tation-committee-hearing-on-boeing-737-8-max/

    I think Elwell will be one of the primary fall guys, and rightfully so. Afterall he pretty much saw it fit to sit on his two thumbs until Trump kicked him in the butt.

    Now the cesspool that Boeing's program management of the 737MAX program had become, that is an entirely different matter, and who knows how that will get fixed, or if it will get addressed adequately at all? The fact that it was allowed to become so at the goading of possibly everyone all the way upto the Board is a pretty sorry state of affairs. An innate desire to try to sweep it under an appropriate set of rugs and carry one may be overwhelming.

    And trust me, if you trace through all my posts on aviation at various places normally I have been in the past an unabashed Boeing fanboi, and continue to be so of their 777 and 787 programs, notwithstanding the Li battery issue, hoping against hope that the MAX malady has not infected those two programs.

    I am also starting to wonder where the doomsday clock stands for Boeing's commercial aircraft division. I suspect they are too big to fail at this point, but the longer this drags on with people making fools of themselves at each step the worse its gets.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM
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  23. May 16, 2019 at 5:26 PM #48

    Devil's Advocate

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    No matter what happens to Boeing our government will simply bail them out with an endless supply of taxpayer debt.
     
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  24. May 16, 2019 at 6:49 PM #49

    Bob Dylan

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    AKA " Corporate Welfare"!:mad:
     
  25. May 16, 2019 at 7:59 PM #50

    ehbowen

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    Why is there not a "love!" button for this post? Few things are as effective at "changing institutional behavior" as the new CEO and Board members realizing that their predecessors are now doing 7 to 20 in a Supermax prison, not to mention being sued for their personal assets down to and including their dirty underwear! I can guarantee that "fines and reprimands," the latter of which will be ignored and the former passed on to customers, will NOT result in any kind of meaningful change!
     
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