Talgo sues Wisconsin over unused train cars
- Thread starter CHamilton
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zepherdude
OBS Chief
I just found this interesting article. The passenger commenting sounds exactly like comments about the mess in Washington. People are tired of all the politics and the posturing going on everywhere.
These trains could be running now. This will cost more money in the long run by Wisconsin being sued and the train sets rotting.
40 million already spent and sitting doing nothing.
These trains could be running now. This will cost more money in the long run by Wisconsin being sued and the train sets rotting.
40 million already spent and sitting doing nothing.
Here in the Northwest, we would love to see the Wisconsin Talgos. We have the infrastructure and the trackage that would put their tilt technology to good use. The Wisconsin trainsets have no business class, but that could be remedied.
It's just a matter of coming up with the money to purchase them and their associated maintenance contracts, buy the needed slots from BNSF, and find the operating money. Which is not going to be easy. But I hope that WSDOT and ODOT are negotiating with Talgo to give them a good home.
It's just a matter of coming up with the money to purchase them and their associated maintenance contracts, buy the needed slots from BNSF, and find the operating money. Which is not going to be easy. But I hope that WSDOT and ODOT are negotiating with Talgo to give them a good home.
rickycourtney
Conductor
The dirty little secret with the Talgo trainsets is, has and will continue to be the maintenance. From the AP:
In the Pacific Northwest... this was a good agreement considering there wasn't a major passenger train maintenance facility in Seattle before Talgo. But in Wisconsin... there is already large maintenance facility on the other end of the line in Chicago.
That's also why California isn't interested in purchasing or leasing the Talgo trainsets (despite desperately needing more train cars here in the Golden State.)
They are beautiful trains. I hope they find a home somewhere.
Not only does a state need to agree to buy the trainsets at a cost of $20 million a piece... but they have to agree to pay Talgo to maintain them for 20 years.
In the Pacific Northwest... this was a good agreement considering there wasn't a major passenger train maintenance facility in Seattle before Talgo. But in Wisconsin... there is already large maintenance facility on the other end of the line in Chicago.
That's also why California isn't interested in purchasing or leasing the Talgo trainsets (despite desperately needing more train cars here in the Golden State.)
They are beautiful trains. I hope they find a home somewhere.
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NorthCoastHiawatha
OBS Chief
A Seattle-Auburn-Ellensburg-Yakima-Pasco-Spokane train would be nice.
Such a train is in the draft state rail plan, but there are no dates or funding.
N
Nathanael
Guest
FWIW, based on what little I know about these things, nobody else is likely to be able to buy the trains until the lawsuit with Wisconsin is settled. I do hope that either Wisconsin (perhaps under a new Governor) or Washington/Oregon is able to buy and use these trains eventually.
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rickycourtney
Conductor
So speaking of Talgo... does anyone know why the brand-new Series 8 trainsets STILL aren't running on the Cascades... almost 7 months after they were delivered?
fairviewroad
Engineer
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2011
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I've heard no credible explanation. They won't be used for the extra Thanksgiving week trains, either. They've had no less than two open houses
in PDX where the public could tour the new trains (May and October) but the new trains remain unused in revenue service to this point.
I agree. The Wisconsin Talgos are going to remain in storage until the legal disputes are settled. Given the tone and words from the WI officials, this may drag on in courts for years. With Gov. Walker running for re-election next November, either they settle out of court soon so the matter is closed and done before the election campaign heats up or the Walker's administration pushes any trial or extended court hearings off to 2015 or beyond.
Since the Cascades corridor can't add more frequencies until 2016-2017, WA state can sit back and wait for the WI versus Talgo legal battle to play out. If they can pick the right moment, they might be able to buy the 2 Talgo trainsets at a huge discount.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
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Given that it is Wisconsin this could mean that they will remain in storage until the cows come home 
N
Nathanael
Guest
I know I'm not supposed to get political, but good grief I hope the voters throw out Walker. As far as I can tell he's a criminal -- he keeps escaping indictment while *every one of his closest aides* goes to prison. He had a record of dangerous incompetence (allowing city buildings to collapse, dumping hunks of concrete on people's heads) back in Milwaukee before becoming governor. It's embarrasing that he eve has a chance of re-election, but polls say he does.
If Walker is tossed, it's possible the new governor would just comply with the original contract.
Yeah.
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
Almost a billion dollars in Stimulus funds is being spent
to upgrade the tracks between Portland and Seattle.
The biggest item is a short-cut over (mostly?) existing tracks
to avoid a single-track tunnel that's the ultimate choke point.
There's also a couple of new flyovers, some double tracking,
new or extended sidings, whathaveyou, underway at last.
The Wash DOT has pages on this.
The upshot is, until all the work is done, ALL the work, BSNF
says there's no slot for even one more frequency. None.
The work started a little later than hoped for -- "There are no
shovel-ready projects," ruefully said President Barack Obama --
due to Environmental Impact Studies and the usual other stuff.
Maybe Talgo was too damn fast building the new train sets;
if they'd been on a schedule like CAF for the Viewliners, it
wouldn't be so embarrassing now. LOL.
South of Portland, the Oregon DOT is studying several options
for higher-speed tracks (up to 110-mph) with hearings going on
this month. Then they select a preferred route, the usual
further studies, engineering plans, etc before beginning
the necessary upgrades to the route.
Of course, nobody wants to invest in the current route PDX-
Eugene if it's to be replaced by a different route in a few years.
Maybe they can squeeze in one more round trip on the present
route. Not sure.
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WoodyinNYC
Conductor
Sorry. I couldn't find a word of mention in that link. A map
shows all the rail lines in the state, and it's on there as
an existing freight line. But nothing indicates that the state
has even one body with one computer working on plans for
such a service. Nothing. When the next Stimulus is needed,
Wash State will not have this as a shovel-ready project.
fairviewroad
Engineer
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ODOT has said all along that the new Talgo sets are not going to provide an additional frequency in the shortrun. They are
to permit more efficient use of the current sets by eliminating the need to terminate one of the two daily n/b trains in PDX
and instead run them both all the way through to SEA. ODOT was even passing out copies of the proposed new schedule
on National Train Day last May, with the promise that the new schedule would be implemented soon. That was 6 months ago
and the new schedule is still a dangling carrot. Meanwhile the two trainsets are presumably collecting dust somewhere.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Yeah a quick read through the state rail plan suggest that the only plan is about enhancing the Cascade Service. That is about it. Nothing is said about any East-West corridor other than that Amtrak LD covers it and is expected to continue doing so.
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
That would be very nice. Spokane only sees trains midnight or later.
Those smaller cities in between could also provide ridership, as from
Central Washington State U.
And the Stampede Pass route thru the Cascades Range, Spokane-
Pasco-Yakima-Ellensburg-Auburn-Seattle, is said to be very scenic.
Many tourists, including tourists (and voters) from the Puget Sound
area as well as from Spokane, might like to ride out thru the Stampede
Pass and return via the Cascades Tunnel Empire Builder route.
How about a second train Chicago-St Paul-Fargo-Grand Forks-
Williston-Spokane-Stampede Pass-Seattle? Call it the Sacajawea.
Well, this is not the time for Amtrak to be announcing any great
new train intentions. Might disturb the haters.
So get there in stages:
First add a second frequency Chicago-Milwaukee-St Paul.
Minnesota wants to do that, and by all means the feds
should help.
Second, extend that second frequency to St Cloud-Fargo-
Grand Forks. Don't laugh, the first and third largest cities
in ND each have more than 25,000 on/offs despite service
in the dead of night. No doubt due in large part to Minnesota
State adjoining Fargo and the Univ of North Dakota in Grand
Forks.
Third, start Talgo service Spokane-Seattle via Stempede Pass.
Fourth, a begin second frequency Chicago-Spokane-
Stampede Pass-Seattle, the Sacajawea.
Of course, we'll need more Superliner equipment, but we need
more equipment everywhere anyway.
I'm not a fan of the proposal for a revived train (nothing personal
to your sig, sorry!) to serve the southern parts of North Dakota and
Montana. Counting the potential riders, that thinly populated route
is far down the priority list.
I am sure there's plenty of demand to sustain a second train Chicago-
St Paul-Fargo-Grand Fork.
Then that second train Spokane-Seattle over the Stampede Pass,
and using unloved Talgos would be the way to start..
I'm pretty sure a second Empire Builder run would do fine with
its timetable 6 or 8 or 12 hours off from the main train's schedule.
Establishing a new second run train called the Sacajawea in
easy steps breaks down the costs of upgrades to the freight
lines into affordable segments. These could be done by using
future Stimulus funds, or even annual capital investment
appropriations, if Congress ever gets over the crazies.
Well, a guy can dream.
According to the Milwaukee Sentinel article, Wisconsin DOT claims the trainsets don't comply with ADA. Is this just smoke being blown to cover up Scott's decision or is their some truth to it? How can Wisconsin only be discovering now that they don't meet specs?
this is nothing but smoke being blown around. The sets were designed ADA compliant.
Overall, the entire situation angers me. Walker has set passenger train improvements back for a decade, possibly a generation, in Wisconsin.
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Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
Attacking and undermining public transit seems to be a guiding principle of the Tea Party at large and not just Scott Walker.
So in that sense Walker's just doing his job, at least in the eyes of his principle donors.
What still amazes me is how easy it was to change an ostensibly friendly and moderate Wisconsin into yet another fiercely partisan anti-compromise state.
I have no idea how things will go in 2014, but I would be shocked if Walker's administration compromises on anything, with Talgo or anybody else.
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*whistles* I really don't like the fact that Wisconsin tax payers are on the hook financially, but I am hoping the judge sides fully with Talgo on this one. A $175,900,000 blunder on the head of Walker. Man, if I were his opponent in the Governor's race, I'd make that price tag my main attack on his ineptitude. :angry2:
