Sunset Limited versus Texas Eagle

[VentureForth]

Part of the system may be pricing Texas Eagle cars between points in the Sunset portion of the route higher to discourage folks from taking space from through passengers.

 

[alanh]

My experience (MRC is my closest station) is that 1 is generally cheaper in coach, but 421 is generally cheaper in a sleeper. No, I don't know why this is.

For a date I pulled up at random, 8/11/2011, 1 is $62 and 421 is $77 for coach for MRC-LAX. However, 1 is $245 and 421 is $210 for a roomette. There's an even bigger difference for a bedroom -- 1 is $435 and 421 is $286.

 

[bobnabq]

My experience (MRC is my closest station) is that 1 is generally cheaper in coach, but 421 is generally cheaper in a sleeper. No, I don't know why this is.

For a date I pulled up at random, 8/11/2011, 1 is $62 and 421 is $77 for coach for MRC-LAX. However, 1 is $245 and 421 is $210 for a roomette. There's an even bigger difference for a bedroom -- 1 is $435 and 421 is $286.

Is it possible rates are selected by throwing darts at a price board?

 

[Trogdor]

My experience (MRC is my closest station) is that 1 is generally cheaper in coach, but 421 is generally cheaper in a sleeper. No, I don't know why this is.

For a date I pulled up at random, 8/11/2011, 1 is $62 and 421 is $77 for coach for MRC-LAX. However, 1 is $245 and 421 is $210 for a roomette. There's an even bigger difference for a bedroom -- 1 is $435 and 421 is $286.

Is it possible rates are selected by throwing darts at a price board?

Certainly not.

What may seem like "random" to a lay person is actually the result of very detailed and complex analysis by the folks whose jobs it is to do this stuff.

Other companies do the exact same thing.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Is it possible rates are selected by throwing darts at a price board?

Certainly not.

What may seem like "random" to a lay person is actually the result of very detailed and complex analysis by the folks whose jobs it is to do this stuff.

Other companies do the exact same thing.

I may be a lay person but I've been watching Amtrak pricing on this route for several years and so far as I can tell there's nothing terribly complex about any of it. Rooms bought six months out are returned to inventory at the original price paid after they are canceled, just as has been explained on this forum many times already. It makes no sense to me but it's quite obvious there's no "detailed and complex analysis" involved in that process. I've been flying for as long as I can remember and while airline ticket fares are indeed complex they still adhere to basic assumptions about their connection to schedules and inventory exhaustion. So far as I can tell for most of the time I've been riding the Texas Eagle and Sunset Limited Amtrak ticket prices didn't adhere to much of anything at all. Sometimes they're expensive far in advance and sometimes they're dirt cheap just before departure. Sometimes they're expensive when there are many seats still available and sometimes they're cheap when only one or two are left. But maybe I'm being too dismissive of Amtrak's strategy. Maybe Amtrak is really on to something here and I'm just too clueless to realize it.

 

[jis]

That now sort of looks like this:

 

[Trogdor]

Rooms bought six months out are returned to inventory at the original price paid after they are canceled, just as has been explained on this forum many times already.

No matter how many times that comes up on this forum, it's false every single time.

I've been flying for as long as I can remember and while airline ticket fares are indeed complex they still adhere to basic assumptions about their connection to schedules and inventory exhaustion.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I've seen airfares go up and down just as much as people note rail fares do on this forum. I've also seen the exact same flight, sold through different code shares, with different prices at the same time (e.g. buy a UA flight from UA, and it costs $200. Buy the same UA flight using a US code share, and it costs $250).

Maybe Amtrak is really on to something here and I'm just too clueless to realize it.

Revenue and ridership keep setting records, so I'd say so. In fact, even a couple years ago when ridership took a small dip, revenue still went up.

 

[PRR 60]

Rooms bought six months out are returned to inventory at the original price paid after they are canceled, just as has been explained on this forum many times already.

No matter how many times that comes up on this forum, it's false every single time.

I can confirm from actual experience that cancelled rooms do not got back into inventory at the original price level. They are put up at the fare bucket for current inventory.

I had two low-bucket roomettes for travel in July that I had booked in August 2010 when the booking window opened. Due to a change in plans, I needed to cancel both rooms in June. Both trains were sold out of rooms before I cancelled. As soon as I cancelled, I pulled up amtrak.com and checked room availability. Both trains now showed availability of my cancelled room, and both were priced at the top-fare levels - not the fare I paid.

 

[Ryan]

Why did the prices have to be deleted? I don't recall seeing price bans on the various airline forums I've frequented. Seems like this sort of price comparison is quite limited in scope and should be allowed IMO. It's nothing like the phone-book sized price list suggestion that was previously ruled out (with good cause).

There is no problem with posting fares here. There is another rail discussion site that does prohibit posting Amtrak fares based on a cockamamie idea that posting fares would result in a contractual obligation of the site to honor the fare (no, I'm not making that up.) However, that site has lots of weird moderation, so it kind of fits.

Yes, amazingly enough that's far from the least bizarre moderation policy in that place.

You are probably right that it is caused by Amtrak's ancient reservation system. But given that, it's very logical. Let's say the TE sleeper had only one room left and the SL;s sleeper's were almost empty. If you book the TE space El Paso to Yuma, you would be locking out a more lucrative CHI to LAX passenger. If the situation were reversed, I'm sure the SL space would be more expensive because you would be locking out a NOL to LAX passenger.

Prices shown are for coach....not sleepers.

The same thing applies to coach, the discussion can range far away from your original question.

So far as I can tell for most of the time I've been riding the Texas Eagle and Sunset Limited Amtrak ticket prices didn't adhere to much of anything at all.

Isn't it the case that the Eagle is unique in that some private organization has a role in doing the revenue management?

Rooms bought six months out are returned to inventory at the original price paid after they are canceled, just as has been explained on this forum many times already.

No matter how many times that comes up on this forum, it's false every single time.

I can confirm from actual experience that cancelled rooms do not got back into inventory at the original price level. They are put up at the fare bucket for current inventory.

And I can confirm from personal experience that sometimes they do, making Trogdor's dogmatic statement false. In my case I was cancelling a trip as well, and the availability went from x rooms at $VERY_EXPENSIVE to x+1 rooms at $DIRT_CHEAP. Later on in the day, it strangely went back to x rooms at $VERY_EXPENSIVE.

 

[alanh]

My price check, BTW, does point out that you should always try pricing it both ways when booking a 2-in-1 train (Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle SAS-LAX, Empire Builder CHI-SPK, or Lake Shore Limited CHI-ALB).

Don't count on the cheaper coach train also having the cheapest sleeper.

 

[Trogdor]

Rooms bought six months out are returned to inventory at the original price paid after they are canceled, just as has been explained on this forum many times already.

No matter how many times that comes up on this forum, it's false every single time.

I can confirm from actual experience that cancelled rooms do not got back into inventory at the original price level. They are put up at the fare bucket for current inventory.

And I can confirm from personal experience that sometimes they do, making Trogdor's dogmatic statement false. In my case I was cancelling a trip as well, and the availability went from x rooms at $VERY_EXPENSIVE to x+1 rooms at $DIRT_CHEAP. Later on in the day, it strangely went back to x rooms at $VERY_EXPENSIVE.

Ugh. I think most normal people can figure out what I meant by that.

There is no direct link between original fare paid and the going rate of a room once it's canceled and put back into inventory.

By "false every single time" I was referring to the statement that "Rooms bought six months out are returned to inventory at the original price paid after they are canceled" is false, every time you make that statement. Canceling a room will put it into whatever fare bucket would apply for that level of availability. Sometimes, that rate is equivalent to the rate paid when booked. Sometimes, it's a different rate. But since "Rooms bought six months out are returned to inventory at the original price paid after they are canceled" is not consistently true, the statement is false. Every single time.

 

[Ryan]

Ugh. I think most normal people can figure out what I meant by that.

You'd really do better to make your points without the personal insults.

I find it very tough to believe that x rooms was at an extremely high bucket and that x+1 were set to be in the original low bucket. Sure, it's possible, but that's pretty unusual for such a large price change between 2 rooms.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Rooms bought six months out are returned to inventory at the original price paid after they are canceled, just as has been explained on this forum many times already.

No matter how many times that comes up on this forum, it's false every single time.

I've watched my own cancelled room reappear on the website moments after releasing it and kick the current availability from one to two rooms and cut the current rate all the way down to the exact same rate I paid months prior when there were eight or more rooms still available. I've also seen availability go from zero rooms to one single room at the lowest possible bucket. There may be another equally valid explanation for why this happens but I'm honestly at a loss for why you would continue to favor a complex and largely opaque answer for an observation easily explained by a much simpler and more transparent theory. I guess I'm just more in line with the Occam's razor view of the world than the "intelligent design" view. Or maybe the routes I ride simply work differently than the routes other people ride.

I've been flying for as long as I can remember and while airline ticket fares are indeed complex they still adhere to basic assumptions about their connection to schedules and inventory exhaustion.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I've seen airfares go up and down just as much as people note rail fares do on this forum. I've also seen the exact same flight, sold through different code shares, with different prices at the same time (e.g. buy a UA flight from UA, and it costs $200. Buy the same UA flight using a US code share, and it costs $250).

Yes, we've all seen anomalies here and there when flying, but the basic ground rules are well understood and generally adhered to despite the exceptions. When I'm looking at airfares and see that a first class suite is selling for less than the business class seat I know something has probably gone horribly wrong. When I'm looking at Amtrak's fares and see that the single remaining family room is selling for less than eight or more roomettes I know it's business as usual for Amtrak. I have ridden Amtrak regularly for years now and yet I still cannot make heads or tales out of what their reservation system is trying to accomplish on the routes I travel.

Maybe Amtrak is really on to something here and I'm just too clueless to realize it.

Revenue and ridership keep setting records, so I'd say so. In fact, even a couple years ago when ridership took a small dip, revenue still went up.

Amtrak has also become the beneficiary of forces and events it has virtually no control over.

Such as...

1. Largest and most sustained rise of gasoline prices in decades.

2. Largest and most sustained reduction of freight traffic in decades.

3. The largest increase ever of actively mobile retirees.

4. Substantial increases in passenger rail related funding and lending.

5. Major increase in passenger rail coverage in the mainstream media.

6. Massive consolidation of airlines and major reduction of available seats.

7. Continued increases in airport search and seizure invasions and related delays.

But if you remain convinced that any substantial increase in ridership is due to Amtrak's revenue management then I guess that's your prerogative.

 

[saxman]

Isn't it the case that the Eagle is unique in that some private organization has a role in doing the revenue management?

Yes, this is correct.

 

[jis]

Maybe Amtrak is really on to something here and I'm just too clueless to realize it.

Revenue and ridership keep setting records, so I'd say so. In fact, even a couple years ago when ridership took a small dip, revenue still went up.

Amtrak has also become the beneficiary of forces and events it has virtually no control over.

Such as...

1. Largest and most sustained rise of gasoline prices in decades.

2. Largest and most sustained reduction of freight traffic in decades.

3. The largest increase ever of actively mobile retirees.

4. Substantial increases in passenger rail related funding and lending.

5. Major increase in passenger rail coverage in the mainstream media.

6. Massive consolidation of airlines and major reduction of available seats.

7. Continued increases in airport search and seizure invasions and related delays.

But if you remain convinced that any substantial increase in ridership is due to Amtrak's revenue management then I guess that's your prerogative.

I think Troqador was talking about the effect of revenue management on revenue, and not necessarily ridership, since he specifically points out that even when ridership went down revenues went up. Whether revenue management causes ridership to rise or fall would be a function of where in the price elasticity curve the current situation sits. So you may be beating a dead horse on that one.

Ironically the progress of the major airlines to profitability, that is being achieved by reduction in seat inventory so as to raise fares to a sustainable level, also works towards letting Amtrak charge fares that are more sustainable. It turns out that in the current quarter that is being reported on, American is a glaring exception with a huge loss, but the rest seem to all be reporting respectable profits. And those are all in the face of significantly increased cost of operation due to rising fuel prices. All else being equal, being able to charge sustainable fares is the best guarantee for good continued service. Airlines ore also aggressively abandoning secondary and tertiary stations unless subsidized to serve them, something that the railroads did many moons ago.

Many of the majors are planning flat or slightly negative growth in seat inventory for next year by design.

Clearly the airport search and seizure is not hurting airline profitability. All that it is mostly doing is removing discretionary travelers who typically do not pay any sustainable fare for their travels anyway. Those who really need to travel are doing so anyway, and are continuing to do so mostly by air, barring a few exceptions. So simply removing those seats from the inventory can only improve the economics of operation. It is even better if one can fill those with passengers willing and able to pay higher fares.

And in some cases those discretionary travelers are landing up on Amtrak, which is a good thing for Amtrak. Similarly some discretionary travelers are abandoning even Amtrak and moving to buses (Megabus, Boltbus) on some corridors, and again similarly, this is not hurting Amtrak's cost recovery, and indeed possibly helping some by keeping those seats available for those willing to pay a higher fare, and fortunately there are enough such so far.

And BTW, freight traffic has been rising for the last 6 months or so, and so far has not affected ridership rise. Indeed forces of nature are likely to have a greater adverse effect than freight traffic per se, at least for the moment, because railroads have managed to enhance capacity on many critical routes and are working aggressively to increase capacity more.

 

[njulian]

Why did the prices have to be deleted? I don't recall seeing price bans on the various airline forums I've frequented. Seems like this sort of price comparison is quite limited in scope and should be allowed IMO. It's nothing like the phone-book sized price list suggestion that was previously ruled out (with good cause).

As for the OP, as stated there is no real difference between these two train names/numbers for the segment you'll be traveling. Yes, they're physically separate cars but they are pulled from the same fleet and are virtually identical in every way that matters. They'll also depart and arrive at the same time so pick the one that's cheapest. Even if there is something wrong with the car you end up in you can just grab your destination slip and go sit wherever you want once the coach attendants do their vanishing act thing. So far as I can discern there is no logical reason as to why the prices of two cars can become so completely detached for segments that do not include San Antonio. Apparently it has to do with Amtrak's ancient reservation system that cannot comprehend that these cars are part of the same train. One question though. Why would you want to drive from New Mexico down to El Paso's tired old train station when you have one of Amtrak's newest stations in Deming right there waiting for you?

ahhh yes.. Anyway..I take this train off and on from El Paso west and yes just ignore the Texas Eagle choice and choose SL..exact same trip....cheaper price.

 

[bobnabq]

. Why would you want to drive from New Mexico down to El Paso's tired old train station when you have one of Amtrak's newest stations in Deming right there waiting for you?

The Deming Amtrak station is about 5 times larger than the one my brother showed me some years back in San Clemente, CA.

That one looked like a telephone booth built for 2. Uh, y'all do know what a phone booth is? I'm showing my age.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak has also become the beneficiary of forces and events it has virtually no control over.

Such as...

1. Largest and most sustained rise of gasoline prices in decades.

2. Largest and most sustained reduction of freight traffic in decades.

3. The largest increase ever of actively mobile retirees.

4. Substantial increases in passenger rail related funding and lending.

5. Major increase in passenger rail coverage in the mainstream media.

6. Massive consolidation of airlines and major reduction of available seats.

7. Continued increases in airport search and seizure invasions and related delays.

But if you remain convinced that any substantial increase in ridership is due to Amtrak's revenue management then I guess that's your prerogative.

Amtrak's ridership took a dip in fiscal 2009, which included 3/4ths of the calendar 2009 year. That ridership dip was due largely to the recession and the fact that 2008 had been a banner year thanks to the high gas prices in the summer of 2008. It was during 2009 that gas prices were much lower, although not quite back to the pre-2008 levels. But we had gone from the $4.00+ per gallon in the summer of 2008 down to around the $2.50 mark IIRC. So high gas prices were not a factor in the increased revenue.

 

[VentureForth]

. Why would you want to drive from New Mexico down to El Paso's tired old train station when you have one of Amtrak's newest stations in Deming right there waiting for you?

The Deming Amtrak station is about 5 times larger than the one my brother showed me some years back in San Clemente, CA.

That one looked like a telephone booth built for 2. Uh, y'all do know what a phone booth is? I'm showing my age.

Sure. It's a box you stand inside of to use your cell phone, right?

 

[Ryan]

There are phones in there?!?!? I thought that it was just where Superman went to change his clothes!!!

 

[GG-1]

There are phones in there?!?!? I thought that it was just where Superman went to change his clothes!!!

I thought it was the vessel to launch the Blues Brothers when Carrie uses the flame thorougher on them.

Aloha