Sunset Limited disruption

[Anthony]

Freight derailment near YUM led to cancellation of 2(26) and 1(27) with no alternate transportation provided.

 

[RailFanNebraska]

what really sucks is that UP is not responseable for financial damages to amtrak. If amtrak derails, even when it is the freights fault, who has to pay for it, amtrak. I think UP should have to pay for the passengers tickets, provide a good hotel room and give them with a 200 dollar amtrak travel voucher. This would help keep disgruttled riders on the trains by encourageing them to try the train again.

 

[Anthony]

Perhaps, but there's no way the freight railroads would ever do that. :lol:

 

[RailFanNebraska]

Perhaps, but there's no way the freight railroads would ever do that. :lol:

Without a federal law, no there isnt. And Union Pacific holds alot of lobbying power within the GOP, as we all know.

 

[PRR 60]

Perhaps, but there's no way the freight railroads would ever do that. :lol:

Without a federal law, no there isnt. And Union Pacific holds alot of lobbying power within the GOP, as we all know.

To be fair, that is the deal with Amtrak's use of all the railroads and has been since day one though all Presidents and Congresses, Republican and Democrat. It is not a new thing and it has nothing to do with 2006 politics. The fact is that indemnification is widely used in many industries and is the only way Amtrak could remotely afford to access the freight railroads.

 

[Guest_Amtrak_flyer_*]

Theres no doubt about it, UP has friends with this adminstration. Its a fact. Yes , UP is messed up, but their getting away with murder as far as their treatment of amtrak trains go.

 

[Trogdor]

To be fair, that is the deal with Amtrak's use of all the railroads and has been since day one though all Presidents and Congresses, Republican and Democrat. It is not a new thing and it has nothing to do with 2006 politics. The fact is that indemnification is widely used in many industries and is the only way Amtrak could remotely afford to access the freight railroads.

As I understand it, it's not just with Amtrak, but all railroads basically pay for their own costs in the event of a wreck. Whoever owns the track pays to fix it. Whoever owns the equipment pays to fix it. Whoever had the inconvenienced customers (passengers or freight shippers) has to make arrangements and deal with them. It may not always seem fair, but that's the way it is.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The reason that Amtrak was formed was because the private railroads were begging to not have to continue the money losing passenger service. In exchange for being able to give up passenger service, the freight railroads had to allow Amtrak to continue to use their track as a tenant. In the early days of Amtrak when there was a derailment, trains were rerouted most of the time and not just terminated with no alternative transportation. That is something that has occurred in only in recent years.

 

[frj1983]

The reason that Amtrak was formed was because the private railroads were begging to not have to continue the money losing passenger service. In exchange for being able to give up passenger service, the freight railroads had to allow Amtrak to continue to use their track as a tenant. In the early days of Amtrak when there was a derailment, trains were rerouted most of the time and not just terminated with no alternative transportation. That is something that has occurred in only in recent years.

That's true, however in the 80's many of the railroads either sold to shortlines or got rid of extra capacity in an immediate attempt to save money. This was short-sighted as now many of them are putting in more capacity(probably more expensive than the short term gains they achieved those many moons ago). Thus there is less track on which to reroute Amtrak. And if one does read your contract with Amtrak (printed on back of the ticket, or is it on the folder it comes in?) there is an explanation of what could happen in certain situations.

Luckily, it has never happened to me, but I still feel sorry for those who were inconvenienced.

 

[Guest]

From a contractual standpoint you can perhaps understand the "everybody is stuck with their own costs" approach, as it certainly reduces litigation, somewhat like "no fault" auto insurance. But "no fault" insurance generally does not protect a negligent person from suit by the seriouslyinjured, or the survivors of someone who was killed, by that negligent act.

From a public policy standpoint, where the safety of the general public is at risk, if somebody's negligence (not an "act of god") caused a wreck, and that, in turn, resulted in serious injury or death, public policy should not allow the guilty party to contract away the natural consequences of his/her negligence. The current state of affairs does NOT encourage behavior which would tend to prevent future inuries/deaths. "The Law" generally does NOT allow the contractual removal of prospective liability for negligence that would likely result in serious injury or death to people. The same argument should be used in these situations, and it is really odd, from a legal standpoint, that the current situation is even allowed. It is VERY poor public policy, another situation where politics has been allowed to subvert the public welfare.

The current state of affairs doesn't preclude the injured, or the decedent's survivors, from suing and being compensated, it just shifts the ultimate financial penalty contractually to someone other than the negligent party. But the public policy goal, of reducing the likelihood of future negligent acts which would cause death or serious injury, is NOT promoted.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

That was my post. The new software didn't automatically log me in, I guess.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

The UP is a worthless RR they don't only mess with Amtrak they try to run the BNSF Railway i get hammered by them all the time if they cant use our main track they make us sit and wait to use a conectiong track to get on the Huey P Long bridge we get verbaly abused by the UP on the radio.

So does Amtrak around Avondale LA

UP is just a stupid RR and they have all the power in the world no one will stand up to them.

 

[Guest]

Freight derailment near YUM led to cancellation of 2(26) and 1(27) with no alternate transportation provided.

actually, that's not 100% accurate - from LA, those on train 2 were given the option of taking train 4 to KC or Chicago and then taking a SB train 1 or City of New Orleans (depending on final destination); 30-40 passengers took that option, the others had the option of waiting until today or getting a refund...(and there were several unsold sleepers on train 4, so the sleeper passengers were still pretty well taken care of)

 

[Tilley]

With all of the extra "accountability" language being added to the Amtrak budget reauthorization every year it would be interesting to see what actual costs are attributed to host railroad mismanagement. Some language should be inserted requiring a statement be sent to the host railroad for the extra costs of each train (and the costs of the accounting). For instance, the additional crews needed when a train is late, the costs of lodging for the crews and passengers, costs of providing alternative transportation, etc. Just the costs of the leasing of busses wipes out the possibility of the line making a profit on that run, and may wipe out the possibility of "profit" for a week or a month.

If Amtrak is going to be forced to account for every meal served to a sleeping car passenger, and to show a profit on that meal, why not deduct the costs of the extra meals required due to host railroad mismanagement?

The costs of extra equipment and fuel is also not a small thing. Look at the Coast Starlight, with daily delays averaging 12-14 hours on 4 trains running simultaneously, the extra costs being created by poor management at the UP are greater than what normally would be incurred in running twice that many trains. We should be getting two on time trains per day each way for the money we are spending to support bad business practices at the UP.

Of course the host railroads aren't going to pay the bills, but at least it might exert some pressure for the dispatch centers to do a little better job. At the least, the host railroads would get tired of the statements coming in, and the public and political leaders would get a better idea of which costs are actually managable by Amtrak, and the proportions of the costs assigned to bad dispatching.

 

[Anthony]

Freight derailment near YUM led to cancellation of 2(26) and 1(27) with no alternate transportation provided.

actually, that's not 100% accurate - from LA, those on train 2 were given the option of taking train 4 to KC or Chicago and then taking a SB train 1 or City of New Orleans (depending on final destination); 30-40 passengers took that option, the others had the option of waiting until today or getting a refund...(and there were several unsold sleepers on train 4, so the sleeper passengers were still pretty well taken care of)

Thanks -- I couldn't find this at the time.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

As to sending statements to the host railroads.... waste of time unless you print it on toilet paper, in which case they might actually use it. On the other hand, UP might use it to determine which dispatchers get promoted - the ones responsible for the most Amtrak delays would probably get the nod.

Instead, send those statements to the media, see if the newspapers would print it everywhere the host railroad operates, and send a copy to every single member of Congress, every month. And print a monthly summary, in simple terms, with simple, clear explanatory language, and have those summaries available for every Amtrak passenger, with the suggestion that they write to their Congresspersons and Senators, include some of the relevant statistics, and demand that something be done about it.

But of course that would require the Amtrak Board to be pro-passenger-rail, so we' remain dead in the water.

 

[Tilley]

As to sending statements to the host railroads.... waste of time unless you print it on toilet paper, in which case they might actually use it. On the other hand, UP might use it to determine which dispatchers get promoted - the ones responsible for the most Amtrak delays would probably get the nod. Instead, send those statements to the media, see if the newspapers would print it everywhere the host railroad operates, and send a copy to every single member of Congress, every month. And print a monthly summary, in simple terms, with simple, clear explanatory language, and have those summaries available for every Amtrak passenger, with the suggestion that they write to their Congresspersons and Senators, include some of the relevant statistics, and demand that something be done about it.

But of course that would require the Amtrak Board to be pro-passenger-rail, so we' remain dead in the water.

I agree with you totally, but I still think it would be worth the effort to make the accounting work. I am happy to say that trains 1 and 2 have run again twice west of NOL since the "hiatus." The timekeeping by UP has been pretty bad, as usual. I believe the bill to UP should include the extra crews, the extra accomodations and taxis, the amortized hourly costs of the equipment, the extra fuel charges, etc. Then if you start getting into the inconvenience factors for the passengers, how about putting a dollar value on that? Lawyers do it all the time when somebody gets hit in an automobile accident. What is the value of missing Aunt Mildred's funeral when that was the sole purpose of your trip? I realize that most of the passengers who take a long distance train have other reasons than needing to be there for a specific appointment (i.e. can't fly, can't drive, etc), but being late has its costs, and people shouldn't be treated like a bulk rate commodity.

 

[Anthony]

Man, train 1(08) nearly 12 hours late...

 

[had8ley]

The UP is a worthless RR they don't only mess with Amtrak they try to run the BNSF Railway i get hammered by them all the time if they cant use our main track they make us sit and wait to use a conectiong track to get on the Huey P Long bridge we get verbaly abused by the UP on the radio.
So does Amtrak around Avondale LA

UP is just a stupid RR and they have all the power in the world no one will stand up to them.

My,my...can't we behave ourselves? First you stirred all of Amtrak Nationwide; now you want to tackle the 32,000 miles of the UP !!! Good luck. I'm out of this one. I sincerely hope the administrator catches this one before the world replies to this nonsense. And you call yourself a "Director?" I doubt anyone would let you in their office let alone talk to you on the phone. This is not a personal attack~ it is pure and simple fact that you cannot going around calling everyone stupid especially after your "sky is falling" of last month. Besides, the stockholders of the UP, myself included, are grinning ear to ear. I guess I'm stupid too??? :angry:

 

[Guest]

Theres no doubt about it, UP has friends with this adminstration. Its a fact. Yes , UP is messed up, but their getting away with murder as far as their treatment of amtrak trains go.

UP''s treatment (and the Bush Administration's) of Amtrak is a disgrace. I cannot see how the GOP and the Bush administration could be doing a worse job than than are right now.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Any stockholder of UP that is grinning from ear to ear must be in an asylum. They're obviously not aware that UP shot itself in the foot with a howitzer the past few years, reducing capacity, followed by such a huge increase in freight to move that molasses in January would look like water by comparison. They're so saturated with freight they can't move anything, they've had to frequently turn down prospective customers, and what they DO move moves very slowly and late. If a UP stockholder is happy with that, I think they need to take the "sunny day" painting off of the window and actually look to see what the weather is like outside.

 

[had8ley]

Any stockholder of UP that is grinning from ear to ear must be in an asylum. They're obviously not aware that UP shot itself in the foot with a howitzer the past few years, reducing capacity, followed by such a huge increase in freight to move that molasses in January would look like water by comparison. They're so saturated with freight they can't move anything, they've had to frequently turn down prospective customers, and what they DO move moves very slowly and late. If a UP stockholder is happy with that, I think they need to take the "sunny day" painting off of the window and actually look to see what the weather is like outside.

All I can say is that when the "Mighty MOP" took over the Texas & Pacific everyone laughed at me for buying all the stock I could get my hands on at $12 a share.(The MOP did not come out of the hands of the receivers until 1956.) When the UP took over I was glad to unload it at almost $110 a share. I don't need to take off the rose colored glasses; I only need the speed dial number to my stock broker. I learned a long time ago how to play the numbers game while others sit around moaning about something they have no control over. Kinda reminds me of all the train-offs that never, or should I say, have yet to happen. EVERYONE on this sight is 110% that the UP is nailing #1 and #2 to the wall. Is anybody doing anything about it ???

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Well, I can remember reading not a few news reports, I think including in the WSJ, recounting and giving specific examples of the business judgment errors I suggested. Which makes you wonder: How well would the stock have done by now, how much better would the local economies be in the areas they serve, and how much better would the Amtrak OTP on their tracks be, if they HADN'T shot themselves in the foot so thoroughly. But that's one of the problems with what are essentially regional monopolies. Even if they are screwed up to beat the band, they still have a regional monopoly. If you want to move freight in the areas where they own the track, they are literally the only game in town. But that is basically an accident of historical fact and not something they can claim as an accomplishment. So you may be lucky to have a high stock price on what you bought rock bottom, but that is NOT an affirmation of UP's business plan or their judgment, in my view, and NO reason for you or anyone else to tout it.

 

[had8ley]

Even if they are screwed up to beat the band, they still have a regional monopoly. If you want to move freight in the areas where they own the track, they are literally the only game in town. But that is basically an accident of historical fact and not something they can claim as an accomplishment. So you may be lucky to have a high stock price on what you bought rock bottom, but that is NOT an affirmation of UP's business plan or their judgment, in my view, and NO reason for you or anyone else to tout it.

You are absolutely correct about the monopoly; nobody likes it but you have to live with it. Reminds me of a GOOD job I was on some years ago. We had a new conductor bump onto the job. He came up to the engine and informed me that he was turning our "four hour a day playhouse" into a twelve hour job. Needless to say, I took the hint and bid off the job.

My grinning was related to the fact that we have a poster, on this site, who the administrator will not put under control. Last month he was shutting down Amtrak. This month "all" the UP is stupid. What does it take to get someone to understand that you can't go around making accusations without facts; I feel that I presented mine fairly honestly even though it seems I hurt your feelings with the truth and the facts to back them up. Sorry about that, but after 37 years of Louisiana mosquitoes you start to develop an alligator hide. Sorry.... all I'm trying to do is point out that you cannot go around telling tall stories all the time.

 

[AlanB]

I sincerely hope the administrator catches this one before the world replies to this nonsense. And you call yourself a "Director?"

First, do you realize that the world had already let this one go? It took your post to revive a discussion about something that had been posted over two weeks before. Note the date of your post above, compared to the date of BNSF’s post below.

The UP is a worthless RR they don't only mess with Amtrak they try to run the BNSF Railway i get hammered by them all the time if they cant use our main track they make us sit and wait to use a conectiong track to get on the Huey P Long bridge we get verbaly abused by the UP on the radio.
So does Amtrak around Avondale LA

UP is just a stupid RR and they have all the power in the world no one will stand up to them.

Second, while perhaps his blanket statement about UP is a bit far reaching, nonetheless as a working conductor for BNSF who has been torpedoed more than once by UP, I’d say that he’s entitle to his opinion of UP. He never said that this was anything more than his opinion.

On the other hand, there are many RR experts out there who have published stories about UP’s failures, especially with regard to anticipating the current demand for shipping. In particular is UP’s landing the hotshot contract with UPS and then having to turn around and pay UPS to fly the shipments because they couldn’t deliver as promised. I believe, although I’m not positive, that UP has actually backed out of that contract now. Hardly a wonderful management decision.

My grinning was related to the fact that we have a poster, on this site, who the administrator will not put under control. Last month he was shutting down Amtrak. This month "all" the UP is stupid. What does it take to get someone to understand that you can't go around making accusations without facts; I feel that I presented mine fairly honestly even though it seems I hurt your feelings with the truth and the facts to back them up. Sorry about that, but after 37 years of Louisiana mosquitoes you start to develop an alligator hide. Sorry.... all I'm trying to do is point out that you cannot go around telling tall stories all the time.

Finally, as has been repeatedly explained, the job of a moderator is to maintain a civil board and when needed, to promote conversation. It is not to decipher who is or isn’t telling the truth! Furthermore, as has also been explained more than once, there is no way to put someone under control on a board that anyone can post to. I could spend the next six months deleting new accounts that BNSF could setup if he so desired, so that he could keep making whatever posts he wants, good or bad. And for the record, he does make many good posts!

I for one have no intention of spending my life doing that. I don’t get paid enough for that. In fact, I don’t get paid at all. I do this job because I feel like I’m helping fellow railfans and/or first timers, in some small way. And while I can’t speak for Anthony, I for one am getting quite tired of these constant attacks on us. Once again, our job is only to maintain order and civility, we are not proof checkers, we are not policemen. There is very little that we can do beyond encouraging people not to post wild stories or unsubstantiated stories.