Sumitomo/Siemens Contract for 137 Cars (former bi-levels)

Discussion in 'Amtrak Rail Discussion' started by afigg, Sep 27, 2012.

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  1. Aug 17, 2018 #1101

    MikefromCrete

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    Was there some doubt that the cars would not have traps? As far as I know there's no high level platforms in the Midwest or California, so all the stations would have had to be rebuilt, a highly unlikely possibility.
     
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  2. Aug 17, 2018 #1102

    Andrew

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    Anybody think that these coaches will be ones that Amtrak selects for the Amfleet I Replacement fleet?
     
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  3. Aug 17, 2018 #1103

    AGM.12

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    Once these new cars are delivered, what is to become of the existing Amfleet/Horizon rolling stock?
     
  4. Aug 17, 2018 #1104

    cpotisch

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    Once they don't need them anymore, they'll be sold or scrapped.
     
  5. Aug 17, 2018 #1105

    NSC1109

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    Dearborn, MI has high-level platforms, and I think Detroit-New Center does as well.

    I think I had a discussion on another board confused with this thread. My bad..
     
  6. Aug 17, 2018 #1106

    PerRock

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    Ann Arbor has a partial one.
     
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  7. Aug 17, 2018 #1107

    amtrakpass

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    There are no high level platforms in Michigan except for the above mentioned one at Ann Arbor that I am aware of. The Dearborn and Detroit stations are low level.

    The only full high level ones in the Midwest I can think of are on the Metra Electric District and South Shore Lines. I also sure hope the existing horizons and amfleets will be refurbished and used to expand service once the new cars get here rather than be scrapped
     
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  8. Aug 17, 2018 #1108

    Ziv

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    There are 450+ Amfleet I's and around 90 Horizon cars. I hope they can refurb at least some and return them to service, allowing Amtrak to add additional service on existing lines. It may be that all of them are pretty much at end of life, but given the dire straits of Amtrak's financial position, throwing away resources that can be used, if they CAN be used, would be short sighted.

    Given the current lack of debt, new cars would be optimal, but refurbing existing cars and buying just the locomotives would be good as well. But I know that a lot of the Amfleets are in pretty bad shape.

     
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  9. Aug 17, 2018 #1109

    seat38a

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    It seems we are the only country that has a hard time getting in and out of trains if the platform isn't right up against the train at a perfect 180 degree level.

    KTX Train

    [​IMG]

    TGV Duplex even has steps inside.

    [​IMG]DSC03742

    Sapsan Train: Thats a 1 foot gap been the train and the platform. No extenders from the door to the platform.

    [​IMG]DSC07295
     
  10. Aug 17, 2018 #1110

    seat38a

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    It seems we are the only country that has a hard time getting in and out of trains if the platform isn't right up against the train at a perfect 180 degree level.

    KTX Train

    [​IMG]

    TGV Duplex even has steps inside.

    [​IMG]DSC03742

    Sapsan Train: Thats a 1 foot gap been the train and the platform. No extenders from the door to the platform.

    [​IMG]DSC07295
     
  11. Aug 17, 2018 #1111

    PerRock

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    In most countries the rail network is/was initially set up by one government agency, so there are general standards across the board. Unlike the US in which different stations were made by different companies who all had their own design requirements. That being said, almost all developed countries are now requiring step-free access to the trains. Which usually means rebuilding platforms to come up and match the height of the car floors. But that is still a work in progress, I don't think there is a single country that has completely step-free railroads (Japan maybe?)

    peter
     
  12. Aug 17, 2018 #1112

    PVD

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    If a large order of s/l replacement cars were ordered sometime next year, how many years out would we be when that order was completed? The newest single level cars (not counting VL or trainsets) are the Horizons, they are vintage 88-90. It might make way more sense to order or option new cars for possible expansion of s/l use rather than rebuild, considering the age of the cars by the time it would happen. Quite a number of other factors come into play, as things like potential DMU use in some spots, NY possibly buying its own cars, changes in numbers of cars needed as the state purchased cars come on line in the Midwest and CA, possible conversion of a Superliner train to single level.....anything we lay out now is pure conjecture... (which can be fun at times)
     
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  13. Aug 17, 2018 #1113

    Palmetto

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    Europe in general is not known for its wheelchair friendliness. Those photos show mobility barriers all over the place.
     
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  14. Aug 17, 2018 #1114

    jis

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    NY State, through MTA will certainly be buying new cars for replacing the trailer cars used by MNRR for outer zone express trains. Those may even be NJT style MLVs. This should happen within the next five or so years.

    As for whether they will buy new cars themselves for their Empire Service, or lean on Amtrak and fund them to do so is not known at present. New York's Empire Service management has close to zero staff assigned to it, So unless something changes they do not have the wherewithal to manage an entire contracts process for that. Remember, the MTA organization is a very separate and different one from the little NYSDOT office that manages the Empire Service contract.
     
  15. Aug 17, 2018 #1115

    PVD

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    That was why I said "conjecture" NYS has been a participant in discussions on DM locomotive acquisition, that would make sense since they use a bunch of them (with different 3rd rail needs) for both MNRR and LIRR, as well as the leased ones running the Empire Service. Even within the MTA there has been a fiefdom mentality between the divisions, for lots of different reasons.
     
  16. Aug 17, 2018 #1116

    jis

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    The NYS that has been talking about DM is the MTA (MNRR) branch of the NYS. It is Amtrak that has been talking about DM on behalf of the Empire Service branch of NYS. So at present it would appear that the equipment acquisition for the Empire Service is in Amtrak's court, and not in NYS's court. And well ... MTA is MTA. Though it is likely that this time they will not allow LIRR to go off on their own separate misadventure and fiasco on the dual mode locomotive acquisition.

    Of late, in the dual mode specification committee, MTA and Amtrak have been exchanging information about their requirements and Amtrak has promised to incorporate MNRR requirements in their document to the extent possible. The lead on the specification appears to be Amtrak at this time, though it is hard to tell for sure. But at least MNRR is also fully engaged. My assumption is LIRR will just tag along with the specification and not invent their own.

    BTW, see this about the new RFP from MNRR: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/73503-mtro-north-issues-rfp-fir-new-dual-mode-locomotives/&do=findComment&comment=768847
     
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  17. Aug 17, 2018 #1117

    PVD

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    Either way, it could work. MTA needs larger numbers if you add MN and LI. And NYS under separate provisions (NYSDOT) pays the greatest majority of the cost of the present DM fleet. Amtrak owned and leased, NYS owned and Amtrak operated, anybody's guess at this juncture. Both ways are in use across the country.
     
  18. Aug 17, 2018 #1118

    Anthony V

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    Instead of scrapping them, they could go towards proposed corridor startups in other parts of the country, like NOL-Mobile, NOL- Baton Rouge, or BHM-MGM-MOE. Some could be pressed into long distance service to alleviate capacity shortages on existing single-level LD routes, or to possibly add new sections to those routes, like an IND-KCY section of the Cardinal or the proposed Crescent Star to DFW.
     
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  19. Aug 18, 2018 #1119

    PRR 60

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    "Sold or scrapped" was an opinion not based on any facts as far as I know. What is certain is that as soon as the states have the new cars, they will get out from under Amtrak's capital charges ASAP. What Amtrak does with the cars released from the state-supported services is anyone's guess.
     
  20. Aug 18, 2018 #1120

    PVD

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    Sold or scrapped would be based on past practice for excess equipment. The only other possible choices are storage, or repurposing the best of the lot. Since the original reference was to existing Amfleet or Horizon cars after replacements arrive, it makes the most sense. At the conclusion of a replacement program, The newest of that group are likely to be in 35 year old range. It would make much more sense to just buy or option extra cars for any expansion, rather than spend large amounts on refurbs of 35 year old cars leaving a small fleet of oddball cars.
     
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  21. Aug 18, 2018 #1121

    frequentflyer

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    Agreed, there is a reason the AM1s are being replaced, they are old, and worn out. Why keep them around? Amtrak must be keeping their fabricating department busy making out of production parts for the AMI s and IIs.

    And before someone mentions the VIA's Canadian train. If VIA could replace those 60 year old cars with new equipment, they would.

    Want to start new corridor services? Then have the state order more brand new Siemens cars, it will for a better first impression then a refab 40 year old car.
     
  22. Aug 18, 2018 #1122

    Ziv

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    Don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough. [​IMG]

    If you can refurb half the Amfleets/Horizons for a reasonable amount and they will be good enough to keep passengers on short range routes happy for 8 to 12 years, this would be a great opportunity to build a fleet of cars for expanding service in high demand areas or for starting service in areas that have no service but could build demand quickly. The problem of course is that I have no idea how many of these cars would be in good enough condition to refurb, nor do I know how much it would cost to refurb the cars (refurb cost vs. new car cost), nor do I know how long a refurbed car would last before it would need to either be refurbed again or scrapped.

    Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

    [​IMG]

     
  23. Aug 18, 2018 #1123

    PVD

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    If any one seriously thought they could refurb that may of them you wouldn't be looking at a full replacement. There are major gains in maintainability that come from replacing the whole lot. Fabricating out of production parts is expensive. Roof mount package AC and modern plumbing are just 2 huge bonuses. It just makes more sense to buy a number of extra new ones rather than keep really old ones around and try and bring them up to snuff. The AM-! will forever be cursed with small windows, the AM-2 have single vestibules and manual doors, making them a poor choice for corridors.
     
  24. Aug 18, 2018 #1124

    Ryan

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    This is the best point in this whole discussion. People seem to forget that the cars under discussion here were ordered by the states, not Amtrak, and will be used in the state supported services. The Amtrak cars that will be released when that happens will simply go back into the Amtrak equipment pool, and will be no different than the single level rolling stock they have today. Talk of sale or scrapping them is somewhat premature, since there isn't an order on the books to replace any of them. They'll just fade into the regular rotation of single level coaches until such time as an Amtrak order of single level coaches occurs.
     
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  25. Aug 18, 2018 #1125

    PVD

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    That's how the thread opened, but later on (night of the 16th) a poster asked if these were likely to be the type of cars selected as the Amtrak Amfleet replacements, and the next poster asked what the likely disposition of the existing fleet would be at that point. That's how it shifted from the only logical move, back into the pool, to a discussion on disposition.
     
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