Retired/Stored Equipment

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T

Thomas

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Are there any cars that have been retired recently (such as the Hi-Levels, Heritage Fleet) that could be brought back for cheap to be used on Amtrak routes to meet growing demand? The State of North Carolina refurbished those cars and locomotives from the '50s and '60s for use on the Piedmont, so it seems like it can work. What about any stored Amtrak equipment that could be brought back besides the 20 Superliners and 60 Amfleet cars? Are there more coaches in storage?
 
Problem with a lot of the stored cars, or used cars available for sale for that matter, is spare parts and repair knowledge. There's a TON of old coaches, sleepers, and diners out there, but not enuff of any single model/style to warrant Amtrak making an investment in refurbing / using it.

State of North Carolina, as other states, can do this, mostly because the equipment is captive, AND they aren't buying 75 or 150 railcars. They usually have one centralized maintenance facility, and don't have to worry about the car being bad-ordered in LAX, Seattle, Portland, ME, or Tampa Bay. Simply put, it's easier and more "doable".

That's my two cents at least.

I still like the IDEA of corporations buying and refurbing cars, and plastering their corporate logo all over them, and then leasing them to Amtrak for like a $1 a year, plus normal maintenance. I'd bet my last dime that someone at Amtrak over the years has "raised that up the flagpole" only to have the idea either shot down, or have no "takers" from corporate America.

"Yes Ma'am, I'd like to be on the train that has the Apple-sponsored Double-Decker Lounge Car next week.......Oh? Not available, ..how about the IBM Round-End Observation Car?........ Booked too?......Can you tell me when the Go-Daddy-dot-com Dance-Car will be running?

You get my idea.......
 
"Yes Ma'am, I'd like to be on the train that has the Apple-sponsored Double-Decker Lounge Car next week.......Oh? Not available, ..how about the IBM Round-End Observation Car?........ Booked too?......Can you tell me when the Go-Daddy-dot-com Dance-Car will be running?

You get my idea.......
As long as they don't offer to sell my Penthouse Suite or Spa!

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Problem with a lot of the stored cars, or used cars available for sale for that matter, is spare parts and repair knowledge. There's a TON of old coaches, sleepers, and diners out there, but not enuff of any single model/style to warrant Amtrak making an investment in refurbing / using it.

State of North Carolina, as other states, can do this, mostly because the equipment is captive, AND they aren't buying 75 or 150 railcars. They usually have one centralized maintenance facility, and don't have to worry about the car being bad-ordered in LAX, Seattle, Portland, ME, or Tampa Bay. Simply put, it's easier and more "doable".

That's my two cents at least.

I still like the IDEA of corporations buying and refurbing cars, and plastering their corporate logo all over them, and then leasing them to Amtrak for like a $1 a year, plus normal maintenance. I'd bet my last dime that someone at Amtrak over the years has "raised that up the flagpole" only to have the idea either shot down, or have no "takers" from corporate America.

"Yes Ma'am, I'd like to be on the train that has the Apple-sponsored Double-Decker Lounge Car next week.......Oh? Not available, ..how about the IBM Round-End Observation Car?........ Booked too?......Can you tell me when the Go-Daddy-dot-com Dance-Car will be running?

You get my idea.......

rrdude I love your idea!

I have a similar one where corporations would sponsor current Amtrak equipment. Say at a rate of 50 to 100K per car per year. I would not mind sitting in the Exxon café car, the Apple lounge, or lying down in the GE sleeper!

Put it this way if sponsorship can shave government subsidy of the LD routes by 10-15% and funding stays more or less the same. That is another LD line Amtrak can run (barring start-up costs) .

Maybe we should start a thread where we can all post suggestions on how Amtrak can get extra revenue that will not cut service or quality AND will not require massive upfront costs i.e. new train sets.

… on second thought that also sounds like a great job… now I am just dreaming! :D
 
The challenge of seeking corporate sponsorship of an Amtrak car (or entire train for that matter) is the corporation would have no control (and thus no influence) over the guest (passenger) experience. If, say, the car's AC goes down on a hot day, the on-board staff is sub-standard, the train runs horribly late, or any of the myriad negative issues logged on this forum, the guest would inevitably associate the negative experience with the corporate sponsor. (The sponsor can't exactly issue a disclaimer to the rider when their logo is plastered all over the car.)

The reason corporate sponsorships work at Disney parks is because the companies know Disney manages the guest experience to a "T". The corporations are assured that their promotional dollars, attached to the Disney name, will consistently bring happy associations, something Amtrak could never promise much less deliver. Unfortunately.
 
Amtrak has already done this on several occasions (there was a P42 painted up for Toyota a few years ago, not to mention the recent Acela Express wrap). Way back in the day, there was an ad wrap for Yahoo on some Horizon cars in the Midwest, offering free mobile internet service.

The additional revenue is nice, but I think some people may be fooling themselves if they really think that such a scheme would bring in $30-45 million per year (10-15% of the long-distance train subsidy).

Plus, most ad wraps make the windows quite useless for sightseeing, which I'm sure the passengers on LD trains certainly wouldn't appreciate.
 
Amtrak has already done this on several occasions (there was a P42 painted up for Toyota a few years ago, not to mention the recent Acela Express wrap). Way back in the day, there was an ad wrap for Yahoo on some Horizon cars in the Midwest, offering free mobile internet service.

The additional revenue is nice, but I think some people may be fooling themselves if they really think that such a scheme would bring in $30-45 million per year (10-15% of the long-distance train subsidy).

Plus, most ad wraps make the windows quite useless for sightseeing, which I'm sure the passengers on LD trains certainly wouldn't appreciate.
Agreed, wraps are a bad idea particularly on LD trains, but I was not thinking about wraps. More something along the lines of naming/nicknaming cars including mentioning that during announcements, and a few signs inside and outside the train. As for amounts take the EB it has about 10 cars not including the locomotive and baggage. If they each average 60K that’s 600K, if you multiply that by the number of EB trainsets. That is not a small amount.

As for quality control, agreed that is an issue, and one Amtrak will have to work on regardless, but I think you underestimate how much mileage corporations can and do get by sponsoring things that are seen as “green” and support small towns.
 
Back to the topic, why doesn't Amtrak do what VIA does and refurbish heritage equipment/cars in storage to meet demands instead of going out and buying brand new equipment? If VIA can do it, why can't Amtrak?
 
Back to the topic, why doesn't Amtrak do what VIA does and refurbish heritage equipment/cars in storage to meet demands instead of going out and buying brand new equipment? If VIA can do it, why can't Amtrak?
That stuff is 70 years old now. Not worth spending millions to totally rehab it. They could have done it ten or so years back for some of the equipment. Instead they sold all the halfway decent cars off. They don't have a lot of Heritage cars sitting around.
 
Back to the topic, why doesn't Amtrak do what VIA does and refurbish heritage equipment/cars in storage to meet demands instead of going out and buying brand new equipment? If VIA can do it, why can't Amtrak?
Amtrak doesn't do it in large part because it's very expensive and very time consuming. Most Amtrak equipment arrives at the endpoint of its run, is cleaned, turned, and goes back out sometimes within as short of a window as 3 to 4 hours. Amtrak tries to get 5 to 6 at a minimum, but doesn't always succeed. Yes some on some runs the cars sit overnight.

VIA on the other hand runs the Canadian 3 day per week. They have 2 days most of the time for TLC on those cars. And even then sometimes things go wrong. My recent trip in July we left Vancouver almost 3 hours late because of an equipment problem. If VIA ran its cars as hard as Amtrak does, those 70 year old cars would probably not be in service anymore.
 
Agreed, wraps are a bad idea particularly on LD trains, but I was not thinking about wraps. More something along the lines of naming/nicknaming cars including mentioning that during announcements, and a few signs inside and outside the train. As for amounts take the EB it has about 10 cars not including the locomotive and baggage. If they each average 60K that’s 600K, if you multiply that by the number of EB trainsets. That is not a small amount.
I think you're fantasizing a bit too much if you really think you can get $60,000 per year per car, and get every car "sponsored" on top of that.

Ad wraps are probably the only way to get any serious advertising dollars using the equipment itself, and even that wouldn't pull in anywhere close to $60K/year. Simply naming a car after a company, even with annoying sponsorship announcements by the crew, isn't going to sell for $60,000 per car, given the limited number of passengers that might be in any given car.

Just using your Empire Builder example, $600,000 per train times five trainsets (not to mention spare equipment needed) would be $3 million. Given the Empire Builder's ridership of between 500,000 and 600,000 per year, that's $5-$6 per person in advertising. Unless the people being advertised to are *extremely* wealthy and/or influential (given Amtrak's continued financial plight, that doesn't seem all that likely), no corporation would ever spend that kind of money for such a small target market (by comparison, according to Wikipedia, a 30-second Super Bowl ad averages $2.6 million, and has an audience of 90 million, which amounts to less than 3 cents per person).

All that to say, I really don't think there's as much money to be had as you are suggesting in selling advertising.
 
Back to the topic, why doesn't Amtrak do what VIA does and refurbish heritage equipment/cars in storage to meet demands instead of going out and buying brand new equipment? If VIA can do it, why can't Amtrak?
That stuff is 70 years old now. Not worth spending millions to totally rehab it. They could have done it ten or so years back for some of the equipment. Instead they sold all the halfway decent cars off. They don't have a lot of Heritage cars sitting around.

I could not agree more that the preAmtrak streamlined equipment is no longer anywhere near worth salvaging--even when it is stainless steel. All it takes to understand that is to drive a very old car, even one which was comparatively well built in its day.

But I would like to fine tune the time line a bit, inasmuch as I grew up with the generation of equipment spoken about. Some of the old cars may be 70 were they still around but most were built between about 1948 and 1956,making it around 55 to 60 years old for the most part. Think: post war.

The Canadian equipment, most of it, was built in 1954=55. I think it was refurbished about 1990 so it was only about 30-35 years old when it was redone. Thus, time frame being what it is, would not have nearly as impractical at that time as it would be today.
 
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But I would like to fine tune the time line a bit, inasmuch as I grew up with the generation of equipment spoken about. Some of the old cars may be 70 were they still around but most were built between about 1948 and 1956,making it around 55 to 60 years old for the most part. Think: post war.

The Canadian equipment, most of it, was built in 1954=55. I think it was refurbished about 1990 so it was only about 30-35 years old when it was redone. Thus, time frame being what it is, would not have nearly as impractical at that time as it would be today.
I was going to write something similar as I was reading the earlier replies - the VIA Rail stuff was some of the last post-war stainless steel equipment delivered by Budd.

Still more than 50 years old, but I see plenty of classic cars driving around from that era - why not train cars? 70 years old has a different sound to it... that's starting to sound pretty ancient. I doubt VIA's going to be running those cars long enough to see that birthday (meaning I'd better get in gear and ride them before they're gone!).
 
"Yes Ma'am, I'd like to be on the train that has the Apple-sponsored Double-Decker Lounge Car next week.......Oh? Not available, ..how about the IBM Round-End Observation Car?........ Booked too?......Can you tell me when the Go-Daddy-dot-com Dance-Car will be running?

You get my idea.......
As long as they don't offer to sell my Penthouse Suite or Spa!

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Traveler,

From previous threads I have always assumed that your penthouse and spa were in the same unit. Are you telling us you actually have two separate rooms - the penthouse and the spa? How would it be that I might attain the same level of luxury in my travels?
 
"Yes Ma'am, I'd like to be on the train that has the Apple-sponsored Double-Decker Lounge Car next week.......Oh? Not available, ..how about the IBM Round-End Observation Car?........ Booked too?......Can you tell me when the Go-Daddy-dot-com Dance-Car will be running?

You get my idea.......
As long as they don't offer to sell my Penthouse Suite or Spa!

laugh.gif
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laugh.gif
Traveler,

From previous threads I have always assumed that your penthouse and spa were in the same unit. Are you telling us you actually have two separate rooms - the penthouse and the spa? How would it be that I might attain the same level of luxury in my travels?
You can't they are one of a kind made only for the_traveler. After they were made the molds were destroyed and recycled and turned into amfleets and the blue prints burned and made into amtrak tickets.
 
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But I would like to fine tune the time line a bit, inasmuch as I grew up with the generation of equipment spoken about. Some of the old cars may be 70 were they still around but most were built between about 1948 and 1956,making it around 55 to 60 years old for the most part. Think: post war.

The Canadian equipment, most of it, was built in 1954=55. I think it was refurbished about 1990 so it was only about 30-35 years old when it was redone. Thus, time frame being what it is, would not have nearly as impractical at that time as it would be today.
I was going to write something similar as I was reading the earlier replies - the VIA Rail stuff was some of the last post-war stainless steel equipment delivered by Budd.

Still more than 50 years old, but I see plenty of classic cars driving around from that era - why not train cars? 70 years old has a different sound to it... that's starting to sound pretty ancient. I doubt VIA's going to be running those cars long enough to see that birthday (meaning I'd better get in gear and ride them before they're gone!).

Yes, indeed. It was earth shattering news ---I remember it well----when both Canadian lines built lots of new streamlined equipment in mid 1950's,after most such had stopped happening in the U.S.

Canadian National ordered the Super Continental and the Continental. Canadian Pacific built the Canadian and the Dominion. And some more besides those, I think.

Though the CN equipment was as beautiful and luxurious in its brown color scheme,it was not stainless steel. Meaning it was even less able to be kept going as the ex CP Canadian equipmnt.
 
Agreed, wraps are a bad idea particularly on LD trains, but I was not thinking about wraps. More something along the lines of naming/nicknaming cars including mentioning that during announcements, and a few signs inside and outside the train. As for amounts take the EB it has about 10 cars not including the locomotive and baggage. If they each average 60K that's 600K, if you multiply that by the number of EB trainsets. That is not a small amount.
I think you're fantasizing a bit too much if you really think you can get $60,000 per year per car, and get every car "sponsored" on top of that.

Ad wraps are probably the only way to get any serious advertising dollars using the equipment itself, and even that wouldn't pull in anywhere close to $60K/year. Simply naming a car after a company, even with annoying sponsorship announcements by the crew, isn't going to sell for $60,000 per car, given the limited number of passengers that might be in any given car.

Just using your Empire Builder example, $600,000 per train times five trainsets (not to mention spare equipment needed) would be $3 million. Given the Empire Builder's ridership of between 500,000 and 600,000 per year, that's $5-$6 per person in advertising. Unless the people being advertised to are *extremely* wealthy and/or influential (given Amtrak's continued financial plight, that doesn't seem all that likely), no corporation would ever spend that kind of money for such a small target market (by comparison, according to Wikipedia, a 30-second Super Bowl ad averages $2.6 million, and has an audience of 90 million, which amounts to less than 3 cents per person).

All that to say, I really don't think there's as much money to be had as you are suggesting in selling advertising.
I dunno, I think there is a market for this. Screw the wrap, that's not what I'm talking about, at least over the windows. I'm simply suggesting that with a concerted sales effort, I'd be surprised if a few select corporations (IBM, Virgin, Microsoft, Disney, Holiday Inn, you get the idea. Maybe they'd compete to provide the most luxurious cars) would seriously consider "adopting" rail cars (PPC are the best example) say for a period of FIVE YEARS, and then lease them out at cost to Amtrak. They'd have to hire a few people to oversee the project, but not necessarily ride the cars 24 X 7. It's probably a hair brained idea that has been tried or considered, and failed miserably, I don't really know.
 
Trains Magazine is reporting that Branson Scenic Railway has purchased cars from Amtrak. Their story is behind their pay wall. If someone wants to share the cliff notes without copying and pasting the article, that would be great.
 
I hear you about wanting more rail cars, Thomas, but re-furbing the older ones may be a false economy due to their higher cost of maintenance. I wish Amtrak would just acquire more sleepers for the LD routes. It seems like many of the routes could use an extra sleeper which would really enhance their revenue and possibly make them slightly profitable, even using Amtrak's antediluvian accounting methods. Just $40Mn would get you 14 or 15 more sleepers, enough to make a significant difference on the 3 busiest LD routes. But seeing how the new diners are being under utilized, it is quite possible that Amtrak would find a way to waste new sleepers too.
What I would really like to see, though, is a second EB every day, or a second CZ every day. Stagger the departure times enough to make them more user friendly for cities that generally have service in the middle of the night by departing at least 5 or 6 hours apart (earlier or later) from the existing trains. If the EB had an earlier departure from both Chicago and Seattle in addition to the afternoon departures, it would open up cities like Spokane and Fargo that would probably have a nice boost in ridership. And the vistas from the Westbound EB in Glacier Park would be interesting as well.
 
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LOL! Ryan, I am sucker for an old thread... I didn't even notice the original post date until you pointed it out.
But I am pretty sure that I wanted more sleepers in 2010, too, so part of my answer would have been the same when Thomas posted this. And I have wanted another EB every day for longer than that...
 
Trains Magazine is reporting that Branson Scenic Railway has purchased cars from Amtrak. Their story is behind their pay wall. If someone wants to share the cliff notes without copying and pasting the article, that would be great.

My guess would be whatever Heritage cars in descent condition, and that would most likely be the diners. Then again, they could be buying for spare parts.
 
Trains Magazine is reporting that Branson Scenic Railway has purchased cars from Amtrak. Their story is behind their pay wall. If someone wants to share the cliff notes without copying and pasting the article, that would be great.
They purchased a couple of baggage cars, former ATSF coaches, for parts and also storage, and one diner for use as a backup on their dinner train and premium seating on their xmas train. Nothing too terribly exciting.

On another note, I do wonder to what extent some of the former ATSF high level cars would be justifiable for rebuild, since there appears to be a fairly large number of them for sale on the Ozark Mtn Railcar site. Those are older versions of the current superliners, would think with enough of them there'd be economy of scale to rebuild them as stopgap capacity. On the other hand, Amtrak hates LD trains, so that probably would never happen...
 
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