Passenger train derailment in the Bronx

[jis]

Thanks Charlie. That is the article that I saw, but I was then on a plane about to get off and head to my car so did not have the time to add the link, specially given the bizarre mobile interface one has to deal with from a smartphone.

 

[Paulus]

Metro North just signed a contract to install ACSES in its entire network thus deploying PTC for its entire network. They will meet the 2015 deadline.

Actually most lazy government railroads will meet the deadline as it turns out. The only misses that might occur would be due to FCC issues regarding radio spectrum availability for the radio segment.

Reports I was reading was saying 2019 at the earliest for installation. And I fully expect Caltrain to miss it with their CBOSS nonsense.

 

[jis]

2019 for Metro North? Really? Where did you see that?

I don;t know anything about Caltrain. California is an empire unto itself anyway.

 

[Paulus]

2019 for Metro North? Really? Where did you see that?

I don;t know anything about Caltrain. California is an empire unto itself anyway.

http://nextcity.org/theworks/entry/signaling-upgrades-might-have-prevented-sundays-metro-north-deaths

 

[jis]

2019 for Metro North? Really? Where did you see that?

I don;t know anything about Caltrain. California is an empire unto itself anyway.

http://nextcity.org/theworks/entry/signaling-upgrades-might-have-prevented-sundays-metro-north-deaths

Ah OK. Thanks. Clearly I had wrong information. Apologies for adding to the confusion.
This particular event is going to give an enormous amount of gas reflex to a lot of people who have been shouting from rooftops that PTC is unnecessary. They keep getting proved wrong over and over again, but that does not seem to deter them at all. Specially on intensively used passenger routes I cannot see any justification for holding the position that PTC is unnecessary.

Indeed I did not know that Metro North has been foolish enough to take a public position on this. It should serve them right to have their hands slapped on that as a result of this incident.

Of course everyone pleads poverty since there is a limited budget and you have to make some decisions about priorities.

NJT has also been dragging its feet, as usual pleading poverty. They do have a contract out, but again don;t know what the dates are for expected deployment.

Around NEC, it is not even some new invention that they have to deploy. It is basically Amtrak's ACSES overlaid on essentially the same CTC cab signaling system as what Amtrak uses.

 

[VentureForth]

Unnamed sources, "all but admitted", etc. His Union will be working overtime for him in the coming weeks.

When these trains are operated in a push-pull configuration, can the driver be seen by the passengers like they can in the Bombardier Bi-Level cab cars? I know in Japan on most of the commuter trains, there is a privacy curtain between the driver and the passengers that can be pulled down at the discretion of the driver. Other long distance trains have control cabs that are completely out of sight of the passengers.

In lieu of an Automatic Train Stopper/Controller or PTC or whatever anyone wants to come out with, there has got to be some sort of logical threshold where it makes sense to have two sets of eyes in the cab instead of just one...

 

[WinNix]

Now there are reports that the Motorman dozed off and woke up too late. If that turns out to be the case then this would be a prime example of an accident that would not have occurred if PTC was in place and operational. In other words in another two years when ACSES is supposed to be in service on this segment a similar accident would become highly unlikely. I know that there are some who oppose PTC for what I consider to be pretty dubious reasons.

There is no greater force for change than a tragedy that could have been prevented using safety methods that should have already been in place. It happens too often, and across too many aspects in life.

 

[PRR 60]

Unnamed sources, "all but admitted", etc. His Union will be working overtime for him in the coming weeks.

When these trains are operated in a push-pull configuration, can the driver be seen by the passengers like they can in the Bombardier Bi-Level cab cars? I know in Japan on most of the commuter trains, there is a privacy curtain between the driver and the passengers that can be pulled down at the discretion of the driver. Other long distance trains have control cabs that are completely out of sight of the passengers.

In lieu of an Automatic Train Stopper/Controller or PTC or whatever anyone wants to come out with, there has got to be some sort of logical threshold where it makes sense to have two sets of eyes in the cab instead of just one...

What is sounds like is not sleeping, in the traditional sense, but what is commonly called "highway hypnosis." You are seemingly awake and can perform repetitive functions, but your brain is partially switched off. You can snap out of the trance and not remember what happened in the last few minutes. Anyone who has had it happen, and I have, will attest it is really scary and seems to be unrelated to fatigue.

 

[Ryan]

I'd guess it's a rare person that hasn't had it happen, especially when completing a task that you've done many, many times, like driving to/from work or operating a train over the same territory.

Having a second set of equally impaired eyes won't help. Computers will.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Yep, my car knows the way home from the theater I work at 3 weeks each summer. Amazing, isn't it. Luckily, I've never gone so far as almost being in an accident, that i can recall.

 

[jis]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/03/us/new-york-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Now it is union representative making statements about nodding off....

Yes, indeed, it sounds like "Highway Hypnosis" and yes I have experienced it and it is scary like hell. Imagining getting that in a vehicle that does not have as responsive brakes as in a car is doubly scary. Then again poor application of brakes is what causes many spinouts in such situations.

Ironically, it is possible that emergency brake application only exacerbated the situation. Of course we will know if that was the case when the NTSB report comes out.

 

[Fan Railer]

When these trains are operated in a push-pull configuration, can the driver be seen by the passengers like they can in the Bombardier Bi-Level cab cars? I know in Japan on most of the commuter trains, there is a privacy curtain between the driver and the passengers that can be pulled down at the discretion of the driver. Other long distance trains have control cabs that are completely out of sight of the passengers.

There indeed exists a window on the cab door that separates the Engineer from the passenger compartment, but one would have to be standing right up against it to really see the engineer and what he's doing. We don't know if this window was covered in this situation, but some engineers choose to cover it, while others don't. The view you see is similar to this (standing):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yT90tkOyqI

And sitting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AXv5egf048

 

[VentureForth]

I'd guess it's a rare person that hasn't had it happen, especially when completing a task that you've done many, many times, like driving to/from work or operating a train over the same territory.

Having a second set of equally impaired eyes won't help. Computers will.

I've certainly experienced this and it really is scary as hell. I've blown through stoplights and by the grace of God didn't hit anyone. On the other hand, I have been hit indirectly by someone induced by this same condition.

I am not advocating a second set of eyes in every metro or even commuter operation. Frequent stops would reduce the likelyhood of dozing, whereas express operations over long routes without ATS/PTC/ATC and subject to Class I rail rules shared with freight (perhaps not even at the same time) would be more susceptible.

So Metro North has gone all these years without the need. But how much prevention could have been bought for what the payout its gonna be?

I believe that FRA crash standards kept the casualties much lower than it could have been. However, preventing it in the future is a better plan.

 

[Ryan]

"Blowing through stop lights" reminded me of one time where this (or something similar) happened to me.

There was an intersection near where I grew up that was protected by a stop sign. To leave my house and go anywhere north or west, you had to stop at the sign and then left. I must have driven that intersection thousands of times between when I got my license and graduating from college.

Some time later, on a visit home, I was driving that way with my Mom as a passenger. While I was gone, the stop sign was replaced by a traffic light (you can see where this is going). Engaged with Mom in conversation and on autopilot, I pulled up to the red light, looked both ways and blew right through it after a "California stop". Mom politely asked me what I was doing, running a red light (ok, it may not have been that polite and may have involved a 4 letter word or two, as did my reaction), and I realized what I had done. I was so "in the zone", I literally didn't see the red signal at all. Completely invisible. At least the (mostly) stop and look both ways was ingrained into me so I didn't pull out too closely to the car that was coming at the intersection with a green light.

 

[CHamilton]

• FRA Calls for Immediate Safety Measures for Metro-North (Bloomberg)

How Did Metro-North Go From Model System to Target of Scrutiny? (Chicago Trib)

 

[train person]

I'd guess it's a rare person that hasn't had it happen, especially when completing a task that you've done many, many times, like driving to/from work or operating a train over the same territory.

Having a second set of equally impaired eyes won't help. Computers will.

I've certainly experienced this and it really is scary as hell. I've blown through stoplights and by the grace of God didn't hit anyone. On the other hand, I have been hit indirectly by someone induced by this same condition.

I am not advocating a second set of eyes in every metro or even commuter operation. Frequent stops would reduce the likelyhood of dozing, whereas express operations over long routes without ATS/PTC/ATC and subject to Class I rail rules shared with freight (perhaps not even at the same time) would be more susceptible.

So Metro North has gone all these years without the need. But how much prevention could have been bought for what the payout its gonna be?

I believe that FRA crash standards kept the casualties much lower than it could have been. However, preventing it in the future is a better plan.

In these sort of accidents what you have done matter less than what you haven't done. Luck also pays a part, such as the train not being Monday morning full, or it not ending up in the river. Prevention is better than cure…...

 

[RRUserious]

Just curious. With GPS, is it possible a train's throttle could be made to drop to whatever is considered a safe limit? Of course, that couldn't be a sharp line. If a train is in a 70 mph zone and approaching a 30 mph zone, the slowing process would have to start within the 70 mph zone. On our local freeways, they have digital signs alerting drivers to what the safe speed is in a dynamic way. This is partly due to the fact that there are curves that prevent drivers from seeing a slowdown or stoppage ahead. By reducing the speed of cars, it becomes easier for the cars to brake when they round the curve and see slow moving traffic. The whole system depends on drivers heeding the signs, but if they buy that it is for their own benefit, then maybe they will. If a train route has curves and forest that blocks vision, then it really needs data on what's ahead. And if engineers space out, then maybe it is expecting too much for them to be timely in decelerating.

 

[Paulus]

NTSB has kicked the union out of the investigation. Not surprising, I've been absolutely amazed that the union was making official comments that the engineer was dozing off. Aside from the NTSB's concerns with release of confidential information, that's a complete dereliction of their duty to defend him in the inevitable disciplinary process, especially given that it is entirely possible that he could face criminal charges.

 

[jis]

Just curious. With GPS, is it possible a train's throttle could be made to drop to whatever is considered a safe limit? Of course, that couldn't be a sharp line. If a train is in a 70 mph zone and approaching a 30 mph zone, the slowing process would have to start within the 70 mph zone. On our local freeways, they have digital signs alerting drivers to what the safe speed is in a dynamic way. This is partly due to the fact that there are curves that prevent drivers from seeing a slowdown or stoppage ahead. By reducing the speed of cars, it becomes easier for the cars to brake when they round the curve and see slow moving traffic. The whole system depends on drivers heeding the signs, but if they buy that it is for their own benefit, then maybe they will. If a train route has curves and forest that blocks vision, then it really needs data on what's ahead. And if engineers space out, then maybe it is expecting too much for them to be timely in decelerating.

Yes. That is the entire thrust of PTC.... to use distance to target, current speed, train weight and route gradient characteristics information to compute a braking curve and enforce that using the control systems available on the locomotive. The engineer essentially is presented with a target speed curve which s/he either sticks to or the system takes over and enforces it.

 

[VentureForth]

NTSB has kicked the union out of the investigation. Not surprising, I've been absolutely amazed that the union was making official comments that the engineer was dozing off. Aside from the NTSB's concerns with release of confidential information, that's a complete dereliction of their duty to defend him in the inevitable disciplinary process, especially given that it is entirely possible that he could face criminal charges.

Somehow, I think that the Union rep and the attorney are planning to use the dozing off as a defense, rather than stating that as an admission of guilt.

 

[RRUserious]

Pretty scary defensive tactic. Can't believe it'd save the guy's job. Unless it meant a transfer to a job not responsible for other people's lives. Hmmm. I wonder what the attorney would say is "the right job" for a guy who might lose consciousness at any moment. Lawyer? I think I've heard of public defenders who've dozed off during trials.

 

[guest]

We're stretching out the topic pretty good now...

 

[PRR 60]

MTA Metro-North Railroad Announces Full Hudson Line Service Thursday

 

[WhoozOn1st]

No alerter in the cab car, or in half the trains operating push-pull:

Doomed Metro-North Train Had Warning System, Just Not in Operator’s Cab -- http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/nyregion/as-metro-north-resumes-service-riders-get-back-to-routine.html?pagewanted=1&hp

"The Metro-North Railroad train that derailed on Sunday included a system designed to warn an operator of a potential accident. But such an “alerter,” which can automatically apply the brakes if an operator is unresponsive, was not in the cab where William Rockefeller apparently fell into an early-morning daze while operating the Manhattan-bound train. It was at the other end of the train."

"Three days after the train tumbled off the Hudson line’s rails in the Bronx, killing four people and injuring more than 70, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority said that an alerter system had been installed in the locomotive pushing the train from the rear, but not in the front cab, where the engineer was positioned, properly, at the time of the crash.

"The train was in a 'push-pull' configuration, common on Metro-North. In such arrangements, trains are pushed by a locomotive in one direction and pulled in the other."

"In effect, trains configured and equipped like the one in the derailment employ the “alerter” system on only half of their runs."

Graphic of cab interior: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/12/04/nyregion/Safety-Features-on-Metro-North-Cars.html?ref=nyregion

If the article is accurate about alerter timing, and had an alerter been present, it seems there would have been a window in which the engineer could have suffered a lapse of consciousness without the alerter kicking in:

"An alerter system is designed to sound an alarm after 25 seconds of inactivity, and to apply brakes automatically if an engineer does not respond within 15 seconds."

So while an alerter might have helped prevent the derailment, perhaps not?

 

[Nathanael]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/03/us/new-york-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Now it is union representative making statements about nodding off....

Yes, indeed, it sounds like "Highway Hypnosis" and yes I have experienced it and it is scary like hell.

The really scary thing is that most people don't realize it's happening to them until it's been going on for a long time. People therefore overestimate their abilities.
I've been told that in order to reliably avoid highway hypnosis one should never, ever drive for more than 2 hours -- as an extreme limit -- at a time, without stopping and doing something else. Think about it...