NS willing to talk Atlanta-Macon passenger line

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Tracktwentynine

Tracktwentynine

OBS Chief
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Nov 23, 2010
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From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution:

In Georgia's hot-then-cold pursuit of passenger rail, the missing item has been the working experiment – a short but substantial, inter-city line that could help us determine what is possible and what is pipedream. Several weeks ago, a Norfolk Southern executive wrote a letter to Todd Long, planning director for the state Department of Transportation.
If voters in three transportation regions approve the measure next year, the railroad company is ready to sit down with the state and negotiate a passenger rail service between Macon and Atlanta, according to the March 29 letter.
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This would be a good first step toward Atlanta-Savannah service. And it would also likely mean commuter service between Griffin and Atlanta.

Of course, it's all contingent on Georgia's voters, and they don't have a history of supporting major rail investments. Though these referenda would also include road projects.
 
A a rule, most RR's are willing to sit down and talk on most routes. If it's UP, it's "sit down, talk, and put forth an unrealistic offer" (see also: Daily Sunset Limited). If it's BNSF or one of the other lines, the talk is more in good faith...though there are also some lines that there are good reasons for them to be very reluctant to discuss too much on without very expensive improvements (example: CSX's Peninsula Division, the old C&O line to Newport News, is currently jammed with coal trains...which would make it very hard for them to stick in the commuter line on the Peninsula that was being considered at one point, at least without substantial triple-tracking). But very few RR's are going to refuse to talk, and most will take anything if you hang enough ornaments on the tree for them.

Edit: With that said, I'd really like to see Atlanta-Savannah service eventually, if for no other reason than I think you would get at least one Atlanta-Miami train in the process. Seeing as Savannah-Miami is 580 miles (1389/MIA, 829/SAV), ATL-MIA will be over the LD threshold...and it's yet another good route.

So...daylight Crescent/overnighter to Miami?
 
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They really need to take advantage of the situation. If the management changes the offer could disappear.

In Texas UP got Lone Star Rail to commit to laying over 100 miles of new track that would only be used by UP so they could share the main line through downtown Austin and San Antonio.

BTW Lone Star Rail is now trying to convince the FRA it's not a commuter train but a corridor train so it would qualify for enough funding to build the new line for UP.
 
I'll be interested to see how the State proceeds. Do they get Amtrak to operate the service? Do they use Amtrak equipment or buy their own like NCDOT? How many frequencies a day? Could be the start of something very very good, and desperately needed.
 
VentureForth said:
Heck no. With our luck, it would be an extension of Metra. ;(
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No, it would not be a heavy rail extension of the MARTA system.

It would be an inter-city train running on conventional rails. There's no guarantee it would be Amtrak operated, but that's the most likely scenario, since Georgia doesn't have any experience operating trains and doesn't have an authority capable of running the trains currently.
 
VentureForth said:
Heck no. With our luck, it would be an extension of Metra. ;(
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It would be a rather long extension of a Metra commuter line from Chicago. Do they have rest rooms on Metra trains? :help:

But, the good news is that by extending Metra to Atlanta and Macon with all the track upgrades needed, that it will lower the barrier for Amtrak to start a Chicago to Florida service....
 
Metra, Marta, all the same mantra. Thanks to the 17 individuals for the correction. I live in SOUTH Georgia. Atlanta hasn't really done an exemplary job with Marta, though better than Houston...

If they want heavy rail, they need to study what Gov Richardson in NM did to get it running in my lifetime.
 
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If operated, it would likely fall under the newish Georgia Regional Transportation Authority which currently operates the Xpress bus service in from some suburbs. That said, they do however use private operators for the buses. We're slowly moving toward a coordinated regional transit system. We currently have several separate agencies including MARTA, Cobb County Transit, Gwinnett County Transit, and whatever took over Clayton county's C-Trans. It has been proposed that we move these separate agencies into a single large agency to handle regional transit. Whether it'd be like Los Angeles where everything is LACMTA with separate divisions, or like NYC's MTA where you essentially have several separate companies, it's too early to tell. The current systems do however coordinate with each other so the same ticket can be used across agencies and the systems do have direct transfers to each other at various terminals and intermediate "stations" but it's not there yet.

As it relates to this topic, it is likely the GRTA would assume commuter/regional rail operations but how closely it relates to other agencies is up in the air right now.
 
The line that NS is willing to deal about is the former Central of Georgia line. It is about 12 miles longer than Southern's GS&F line and more curvey. Consequently, post merger Southern plus CofG most freight went to the ex Southern line. At this time it has very little traffic on the CofG side. It may still have its block signals in place, but not sure. I think NS would also be willing to deal with the ex CofG line the rest of the way to Savannah. However this line has no signals and never did. It is also somewhat round about, which was not significant pre interstate, but would be now. What would the market be for an Atlanta - Savannah train that took 6 hours, or an Atlanta macon train that took at least 2 hours. That is about all that you can get without upgrading to beyond its former best condition.

If a fairly fast Macon to Jacksonville train is wanted, the former route of the Kansas City Florida Special to Jesup is near dead straight. However, it has no signals, and never did, has light rail, and generally would take a lot of work to bring up to condition for anything running 79 mph or better. Also, the trains would be on CSX between Jesup adn JAcksonville, which is already somewhat overloaded with trains.
 
George,

What I was thinking was a somewhat more complicated deal whereby you'd have an ATL-SAV train that ran daily...and kicked a set of cars onto a Silver Palm headed further south. Mind you, I'm not opposed to running a bunch of LD trains through Florida and basically building a more solid rail core in FL that way, but I'm at least mentally trying to add as little to the system as possible while adding as much as possible. Granted, you're probably going to have to have a better-than-cafe food service car (I, for one, am not paying for a sleeper to wake up to cold cereal or a glorified McMuffin), so that might require just running a separate operation, period.
 
Georgia was suppposed to have an Atlanta-Athens train running in 1996 for the Olympics....I was in Atlanta in 1995 on business and saw an article in the AJC. I moved to the Atlanta area in 1996 before the Olympics and was surprised to find that no train was running. Both the Atlanta-Athens and Atlanta-Macon trains have been talked about for years, but nothing. Most people in the Atlanta area don't even know where the Amtrak station is, including taxi and limo drivers. I won't plan on seeing a train until one actually starts running.
 
MattW said:
If operated, it would likely fall under the newish Georgia Regional Transportation Authority which currently operates the Xpress bus service in from some suburbs. That said, they do however use private operators for the buses. We're slowly moving toward a coordinated regional transit system. We currently have several separate agencies including MARTA, Cobb County Transit, Gwinnett County Transit, and whatever took over Clayton county's C-Trans. It has been proposed that we move these separate agencies into a single large agency to handle regional transit. Whether it'd be like Los Angeles where everything is LACMTA with separate divisions, or like NYC's MTA where you essentially have several separate companies, it's too early to tell. The current systems do however coordinate with each other so the same ticket can be used across agencies and the systems do have direct transfers to each other at various terminals and intermediate "stations" but it's not there yet.

As it relates to this topic, it is likely the GRTA would assume commuter/regional rail operations but how closely it relates to other agencies is up in the air right now.
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There is a Georgia Rail Passenger Authority which, under a MOU several years ago, likely would have operating authority and would contract with an operator, Amtrak or someone else (including possible NS) to operate the trains.
 
GaSteve said:
There is a Georgia Rail Passenger Authority which, under a MOU several years ago, likely would have operating authority and would contract with an operator, Amtrak or someone else (including possible NS) to operate the trains.
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Are they just a paper quango or do they have a real budget, staff and the ability to do something?
 
cirdan said:
GaSteve said:
There is a Georgia Rail Passenger Authority which, under a MOU several years ago, likely would have operating authority and would contract with an operator, Amtrak or someone else (including possible NS) to operate the trains.
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Are they just a paper quango or do they have a real budget, staff and the ability to do something?
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They are not currently active, primarily due to the Governor's refusal to appoint enough members to make a quorum. The Authority has been in existence sine the early 90's.
 
GaSteve said:
They are not currently active, primarily due to the Governor's refusal to appoint enough members to make a quorum. The Authority has been in existence sine the early 90's.
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Which may be all we need to know about the near term prospects of an Atlanta to Macon passenger service. Just not enough political support to get serious about intercity passenger rail options, just some planning and feasibility studies that at least will provide a basis to get started if/when the political climate in GA changes.

For those living in SC and GA who want better passenger rail options, the key project is the Southeast HrSR corridor in VA and NC. If NC can show good ridership numbers and positive effects for the economy with an improved Piedmont service AND the SE HrSR can get started on construction with prospects of much faster connections to the NEC, then maybe GA will move beyond feasibility studies and put some real state money on improvements and service for the Atlanta to Charlotte, NC route. But this will be a long slog to restart passenger rail in GA and SC beyond the LD trains that pass through their states.
 
When I lived in Rome, I would often lobby the Georgia legislature on environmental issues. It always amazed me how any monetary investment in rail, such as extending Marta into Marietta, was considered a financial boondoggle. All the while, no one thought twice of spending $500 million to add more lanes to I75.

Some business leaders in Atlanta fear that thumbing a nose at the SE high speed rail corridor will result in the train stopping in Charlotte and having Charlotte grow at Atlanta's expense. I think this fear is entirely justified. I don't see Georgia getting on board until the project is successful elsewhere and they can see what they are missing while they continue to battle Hartsfield Airport or the Atlanta beltway traffic.

I have been searching recently for news about the status of the SE high speed rail project. Does anyone know what the current timeline for Raleigh to Richmond service is and what the overall timeline would be for hooking NC to the NE corridor? How about the status of NC accepting funding? I know that money is already accepted to shorten the trip from Charlotte to Raleigh.
 
jphjaxfl said:
Georgia was suppposed to have an Atlanta-Athens train running in 1996 for the Olympics....I was in Atlanta in 1995 on business and saw an article in the AJC. I moved to the Atlanta area in 1996 before the Olympics and was surprised to find that no train was running. Both the Atlanta-Athens and Atlanta-Macon trains have been talked about for years, but nothing. Most people in the Atlanta area don't even know where the Amtrak station is, including taxi and limo drivers. I won't plan on seeing a train until one actually starts running.
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Yeah. I lived there from '92 until 2002 and our kids still live there now. There were all sorts of dreams ATL->Athens and ATL->Macon. Then only part of the way ...

I'll believe it when I see it but I doubt I'll live that long.

Even Macon to ATL airport would be good if they don't want to go all the way to downtown since there is no decent station.. Would get rid of some of the short flights that take landing slots but are better done by rail. Could connect into MARTA. Would provide a good place for people in ATL to park their cars when taking the train. Would help those of us who believe that short flights should be replaced by rail to big city airports and follow the European (and few US) locations that provide intercity rail at air terminals.

A real dream would be to run that rail from Macon to ATL airport then Downtown then continue to Greenville, Spartenburg and Charlotte so there is daytime transportation between these cities. Just think - as an alternative to GSP airport, one could take the train to either Charlotte or Atlanta to catch a plane. When CLT or ATLis having problems, one could take a train to the other city's airport.
 
Cumbres said:
I have been searching recently for news about the status of the SE high speed rail project. Does anyone know what the current timeline for Raleigh to Richmond service is and what the overall timeline would be for hooking NC to the NE corridor? How about the status of NC accepting funding? I know that money is already accepted to shorten the trip from Charlotte to Raleigh.
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The status of the SE HrSR project Richmond to Raleigh segment over the S-Line is that it will need a lot of funding and years of construction work before we see trains running over the new route.

Looking at the FRA tables, The summary of the HSIPR funding from the stimulus and FY10 is as follows:

NC got a total of around $520 (stimulus) + $22 million (FY10) + $1.5 million (OH & WI reallocation) for the Raleigh to Charlotte corridor. Funding covers 24 projects including double tracking, closing 30 grade crossings, station improvements, reduce trip times, buying more older equipment for refurbs, increase Piedmont to 4 daily trains. In the NC $623 million dollar application for the FL HSR funds redistribution, they requested $5.4 million to acquire additional equipment needed to implement a 5th daily Piedmont, so they might be able to get to 5 daily Piedmont's from the funding already provided.

Forgot to add that some NC Republican state legislatures stated they wanted the state to return the $545 million of HSIPR funding, but I gather they got rather throughly smacked down by a number of local politicians and the business community leaders on that idea.

Richmond to Raleigh section - NC got $4 million from the FL HSR funds to complete the TEIR II FEIS and ROD for the corridor.

current Richmond to Raleigh route - NC got $25 million for four new/upgraded crossovers on the A-line for "Congestion Mitigation".

VA - DC to Richmond section

VA got $75 million (stimulus) for a 3rd track on the RF&P from Arkendale to Powell's creek.

VA got $45.5 million (FY10) for project EIS and Preliminary Engineering for DC to Richmond segment and for a new Appomattox River bridge.

DC got $2.9 million (stimulus) for completion of preliminary engineering and NEPA studies for replacement of the Long Bridge across the Potomac and to Arlington section.

So the status is that the PE and EIS work for the SE HrSR from DC to Richmond and Richmond to Raleigh is fully funded. Getting to actual construction work to start on the corridor will likely take years to get the funding lined up.
 
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I wish they had the smack down but, it has not happened yet.

To the defense of some of the Repubs trying to kill it the vast majority of the money is being spent on the Charlotte area cross connection to move the station to a multi modal station. In the process NS and CSX are getting a massive overhaul of trackage in the CLT area that amounts to corporate welfare. There are some articles on Google that you can find.

Personally, I cannot wait to see more NC/Amtrak enhancements but, really need a link to Asheville (on the plans since 2000 and delayed by NS due to freight traffic increases as it will benefit the Western Carolinas dramatically.
 
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