MNRR / LIRR Long Term plans and Proposals - 2050

Discussion in 'Commuter Rail and Rail Transit Discussion' started by Nexis4Jersey, Feb 2, 2011.

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  1. Feb 2, 2011 #1

    Nexis4Jersey

    Nexis4Jersey

    Nexis4Jersey

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    I copied and pasted it form another site , as i'm too lazy to type it on this site..

    MNRR / LIRR

    Current system size : 988

    added miles of Electrified Rail : 862

    added miles of Diesel Rail : 462

    Daily Ridership : 628,000 (projected 2030 ridership > 1.2 million)

    Rural / Low Density Commute Corridor : 500-3,000 Rail Commuters

    Low Commute Corridor : 3-15,000 daily Rail Commuters

    Medium Commute Corridor : 15-30,000 daily Rail Commuters

    High Commute Corridor : 30-80,000 daily Rail Commuters

    High Density Commute Corridor : 85,000+ Rail Commuters

    HLP = High Level Platforms

    NOP = No Parking

    Current System

    Hudson line - High Commute Corridor

    Harlem line - High Commute Corridor

    New Haven line - High Density Commute Corridor

    Waterbury Branch - Low Commute Corridor

    New Canaan Branch - Low Commute Corridor

    Danbury Branch - Low Commute Corridor

    Port Jervis line - Low Commute Corridor

    Pascack Valley line - Low Commute Corridor

    Port Washington Branch - High Commute Corridor

    Oyster Bay Branch - Low Commute Corridor

    The rest of LIRR line ridership is NA

    MNRR Current & Long Term Plans and proposals - 2040 plan

    LIRR Long Term Plans and Proposals - 2050 plans

    New Haven line extension to Penn Station

    High Commute Corridor

     

    This line extension would include stations in Co-Op City , Parkchester , Hunts Point. This line would come after the ESA project opens , since the LIRR will be leaving alot of slots at NYP. This line would give people in the Eastern part a faster , yet slightly more expensive way into Manhattan. I proposed a station in queens which would make sense for Commuters wishing to transfer to Subway Services in Queens / Brooklyn. I noticed Amtrak is 4 tracking and upgrading the line south of New Rochelle.

    Hudson line extension to Penn Station

    Medium Commute Corridor

     

    This line would act as an Alt to GCT and give Hudson line riders another way into Midtown. This line just like the New Haven extension would come after the ESA project is completed. Stations for this line would include , West 62nd Street Station , 125th Street Station , and my proposal would be a Dyckman Street Station.

    Restoration of the West Shore line

    High Commute Corridor

     

    This line would serve one of the highest commuting regions of the NYC region. The line would run form Hoboken to Kingston,NY and give Rail Access to an Estimated 470,000. Although Ridership wouldn't be that high , the line would serve cities like Jersey City , Teaneck , New Burgh and Kingston and numerous large towns. The line would be used by between 40-60,000 daily and be powered by a 3rd Rail due to Freight operations and Catenary issues. That would mean every station would have to be High Level Platform or HLP. A New area of Hoboken Terminal would have to built for this line. The line itself would need 2 Separate tracks form the freight trains to handle the massive commuter crush. The line would have stops @ Jersey City Heights / Secaucus Road /NOP , Light Rail Transit Center in North Bergen , Ridgefield Park , Cedar lane / Teaneck , Bergenfield , Haworth , Harrington Park , Tappan , Valley Cottage , Haverstraw , Stony Point , Bear Mountain Zoo / Park , Highland Falls , West Point , Cornwall on Hudson , Newburgh , Milton , Kingston. This line would probably be restored in phases to save $$$.

    Restoration of the Graham line

    Low Commute Corridor

     

    This line would serve a growing congested section of Orange County. It was a mistake to end service on this branch.....the population has since exploded. The ROW is still intact meaning it can be restored although NIMBY's would be a huge issue , this line would probably get 2x the amount of commuters of the PJ line due to were it goes through the cores instead of the outskirts. DMU's would be the choice of this line and replace of the push - Pulls due to there cost saving benefits and faster accelerations.. There also less noisy... Stations would be located @ Harrimen / NOP , Monroe , Chester , Goshen , Downtown Middletown / NOP , and West Middletown

    Restoration of the Beacon line

    Low Commute Corridor

     

    This line would serve a growing part of the NYC region , it would act as a connector between Hudson , Harlem , Danbury , and Waterbury lines. TOD generated by this line would create a ridership spike.....although Ridership would be low it would still be enough to justify a line. But this would not come this or even the next decade , probably sometime in the 2030s. Stations would include Beacon Town Center / NOP , Fishkill , Brinckernoff , Hopewell JCT , Brewster , Danbury , Newton , and Shelton.

    Danbury line Electrification & Extension

    Low Commute Corridor

     

    This kinda explains itself , but the Danbury is growing in Ridership. If everything goes well with all the projects planned along the line in Norwalk , Georgetown , Danbury ridership without a doubt soar as it has on other lines. Most will be commuting to NYC , but a growing number will start to reverse commute up to Danbury along with other lines in the region. Newer Stations would be in Downtown Norwalk / NOP , Factory pond in Georgetown , Brookfield , and New Milford.

    I-287 Rail Corridor - Light Rail

    High Commute Corridor

     

    This line would connect High Employment areas of Westchester County with the West of the Hudson counties and Northern NJ. It would also serve the growing populations of Rockland , Bergen , and Westchester Counties , and give a new route into Manhattan for 10000s of commuters. Aka it would be a New ARC. White Plains is expecting to explode with a ton of new projects this decade mostly high rises making I-287 and other highways very congested. The line would mostly be underground and would face grade issues on the Rockland county side , but these could be over come with Newer Technologies and lighter trains via a FRA waiver. Stations would probably be located at Suffern , Airmont , Nanuet , Palisades Mall , South Nyack , Tarrytown , Fairview , White Plains Transit Center , Downtown White Plains , Manhattanville College / Purchase , Rye Brook and Port Chester Transit Station. It wouldn't be like a typical light rail line , but more like the Riverline in terms of station spacing.

    Stewart Airport Branch of the Port Jervis line

    Rural / Low Density Commute Corridor

     

    It kinda explains itself , this airport will one day become the new EWR or JFK. So an Airport line will one day be needed. Probably not for a decade or 2 but one day it will be.

    Electrification of the whole LIRR system

    Thats Self Explanatory , although i think the Montauk branch should be a High level DMU line and not a EMU line due to low ridership.

    Restoration of the Full Hempstead line

    Low Commute Corridor

     

    This would provide a fast alt to part of the Main line and would allow trains to be re-routed if there were a disaster on the Main or Babylon line. It would also service a dense corridor and College , the ROW is still intact for the most part. Although a New Bridge would have to be built over the Meadowbrook State Parkway.

    Restoration of the Wading River line

    Low Commute Corridor

     

    Since the ending of service East of PJS , the area has exploded in growth. Restoration of the Wading River Branch would take pressure off NY 25A commuters trying to get to PJS and would allow for even more commuters who normally wouldn't take the LIRR to NYC.

    Restoration of the Sunset Branch

    High Commute Corridor

     

    This line would be part 1 of closing the gaps in the subway system in the outer boroughs. The line would start in Jamaica and head east on the Atlantic Branch till it hit East New York where it would turn South on an Industrial line , it would follow that to Sunset park area of Brooklyn or the Docks of Brooklyn. There would be a Ferry Terminal which would have shuttle Ferries to Jersey or SI.

    Proposed LIRR Core line

    High Density Commute Corridor

     

    It would serve as a bypass to going into Manhattan to switch other Transit services for Central Jerseyites , Staten Islanders and Brooklyn and Queens Residents. It would start off in Midtown Elizabeth , then head east under Newark Bay in a Immersed Tunnel , then stay Underground in Bayonne where it would have at least one stop , then head over to St. Gorges Ferry Terminal where it would have a stop there. It would need go under New York Harbor in another Immersed Tunnel , all 3 Tunnels would be twin tubed. Once in Brooklyn it would merge with the Sunset park line and ride that past the Atlantic Branch to Elmhurst where it would merge with the Main line and go to Grand Central.

    NY 25 Streetcar / Light Rail

    High Commute Corridor

     

    This line would serve a densely populated area of LI that is undeserved by Transit and is growing. The line in wider parts of NY25 would be in the Median , in narrower spots it would share with traffic... There isn't really a stigma against trains on LI so this line if ever built would probably be used by a decent amount compared to the buses.

    Proposed 3 North - South Light Rail / Streetcars

    Medium Commute Corridor

     

    These would act like connectors between the LIRR system and serve semi dense corridors. These lines generate Dense Developments aswell as Smart Growth.

    Proposed LGA Airport Train

     

    It would connect of the Terminals at LGA and then head south along the Median ROW on the GCP and then on the BQE similar to the JFK Airtrain. The line would then break off to go Northeast Corridor ride that Queens Junction Station.

    Queens Junction Station

    This Station would serve as another Jamaica Station in the sense that it would join all the LIRR lines in one spot. It would serve as the Terminus for the LGA Airtrain and the MNRR New Haven line Extension and the last stop on LIRR before Penn or Grand Central Station. There would also be a moving sidewalk for passengers wishing to connect to the E,M & R trains aswell as Buses.

    So what do you think of the plans ?, i got great reviews form the engineers / operators on the other sites.
     
  2. Feb 2, 2011 #2

    jis

    jis

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    Surely someone has got their Main Line and Graham Line mixed up :) It is the Graham Line that currently has service in the form of the NJT/MNRR Port Jervis Line. It is the Main Line that does not have service and indeed does not exist for significant distances between Harriman and Otisville, having been overrun by suburban development. My guess is that restoration of service on that portion of Main Line would be quite cost prohibitive and more so as time passes. The ROW has not been rail-banked AFAIK. OTOH an LRT line connecting with the heavy rail line at Harriman might be fesible and cost justifiable along that corridor someday, and possibly more appropriate through town centers.

    My fearless prediction. Pigs will fly before that one will come to pass. :)

    What is more likely is an Amtrak deep tunnel from NJ then under Manhattan emerging somewhere in Westchester county. At least it is mentioned in the Amtrak HSR plan.
     
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  3. Feb 2, 2011 #3

    AlanB

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    Amtrak is doing no such thing. The ROW has room for 4 tracks because it was built with 4 tracks originally. But it's been 2 tracks now for a while and except for the Hell Gate Bridge where freight uses a third track, it will remain 2 tracks. Amtrak has no need for 4 tracks in this area, even if MN were to start sending trains from New Haven into Penn. Except for times when a train is late or laying down, Amtrak could run everything it currently runs with just 1 track.

    And in fact, they've been doing that while they update the existing catenary structures. But it should be noted that while they're putting in more supports and new hangers, they are not putting in constant tension cat.

    Any such station that allowed trains from GCT would be way too close to the Woodside station and too far from the E, M, & R trains. Not to mention that there might not even be enough room between where the Hell Gate line merges into the LIRR line and the interlocking that will take GCT trains off the main line.

    Besides, the LIRR is already planning to build a station right by Queens Blvd as part of ESA, but it will only serve trains bound for Penn. So now you'd have 3 stations in less than 2 miles. We're running a commuter service here, not a subway.
     
  4. Feb 2, 2011 #4

    Green Maned Lion

    Green Maned Lion

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    Excluding the possibility of a 7 to Secaucus (and after listening to Steve Lancet and Joe Versagi demonstrate a complete lack of recognition of the congestion problems between Port Authority and Grand Central inherent to the change, I'm dodgy about it) I can't imagine what any MTA operation would have any business running into New Jersey, let alone as far away from New York as Elizabeth. Some of the LIRR restoration might make a bit of sense.

    By the way, any operation into Penn Station over Spuyten Duyvil would be a massively expensive one. The entire line would have to be double tracked, which would require a massive amount of expenditure, due to the nature of tunneling that would need to be done. And all operation of MetroNorth into Penn is premised on the idea that LIRR will be giving up Penn Station slots. At least according to LIRR's vehement insistences, this is not so.

    Joe Clift, who knows more than a little about LIRR, told me that LIRRs ESA had more to do with moving Flatbush Avenue and Long Island City trains into Manhattan than anything involving accommodating MetroNorth in Penn Station
     
  5. Feb 3, 2011 #5

    jis

    jis

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    On the issue of double tracking the Empire connection, most of it is already double tracke, thanks to a Schumer maneuver in the Senate which got the entire project funded many years back. The only single track segments are CP Empire to Penn A interlocking through the single track tunnel, and from CP Inwood to the Metro North connection across the Spuyten Duyvil bridge. Neither of those need to be double tracked for running say 5 or 6 trains an hour each way. Beyond that, putting in a second track from CP Empire to the West Side Yard lead should not be that expensive - there really is no tunneling to be done. Just a non load bearing wall has to be knocked down. Double tracking across the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge should not be that expensive either.

    As for intenecine bickering between LIRR and MNRR, the Governor of New York can fix that very very quickly if he so chooses. And typically at least some Governors of New York seem to be way more competent than any we have had the good fortune of coming across in NJ.
     
  6. Feb 3, 2011 #6

    MattW

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    What exactly would MNCR run into Penn via the Empire Connection? From where I'm sitting, the only option would be to run P32s either borrowed from Amtrak (yea, likely) or specially modified to run into Penn on the LIRR's third rail. Unless they're planning to convert all the third rail in the area to one or the other type, or run 25KV Catenary up the Hudson line to allow M8s (or M2/M4/M6s if they're still around) to operate on the line, I can see diesels as the only way for MNCR to get into NYP.
     
  7. Feb 3, 2011 #7

    Green Maned Lion

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    IIRC, Metro-North was playing with the ideal of dual mode shoes. Don't ask me how they work or any of that. I have no idea.
     
  8. Feb 3, 2011 #8

    AlanB

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    Spuyten Duyvil Bridge was built to handle two tracks, even though only one remains. So it's really a matter of just laying down more track and perhaps a switch or two on the northern, MN side of the bridge. Which as you say, wouldn't be all that expensive.
     
  9. Feb 3, 2011 #9

    AlanB

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    That's news to me, and Dutch is on record here regarding the problems with such an endevor. And frankly I have to agree with him, as I can't imagine how they could ever hope to do that. Those shoes are spring loaded, something needed to keep the shoe in contact with the rail. I can't conceive of how you could effectively have two springs, one pulling up for when running into GCT and one pulling down for running into Penn.

    Perhaps a way could be found to mount two separate shoes and then retract them when they aren't needed.
     
  10. Feb 3, 2011 #10

    AlanB

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    The LIRR isn't giving up any slots when ESA is completed, because they own the slots at Penn. They paid Amtrak for those slots permanently. This is not to say that the LIRR cannot lease those slots out to their sister agency or even NJT, if NJT could figure out how to benefit from it and find the money to pay for it.

    But the ESA plan from the LIRR specifically details just how many fewer trains the LIRR will initially run into Penn, once ESA is operational. The LIRR does expect over the next 20 to 30 years that they will have to gradually build things back up at Penn as more and more people do start commuting to the city via the LIRR. But the plan doesn't envision ever returning to the current service levels at Penn, once ESA is on line. Mind you, the plan didn't look more than 20 or 30 years into the future IIRC. So that isn't to say that in 50 years, if we're all still alive and debating things that the LIRR might well be back to current service levels at Penn by that point in time.

    Of course in 50 years I'll be 100, if I actually make it that far (something not likely based upon my family history), so who knows if I'll even be coherent enough to debate anything much less turn on my computer. :lol:
     
  11. Feb 3, 2011 #11

    Nexis4Jersey

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    Its always nice to dream though , we need a bypass line to go around the core for Freight and Passenger Rail. I do see something like this being built in my lifetime... There needs to a Railway to relive the congestion of I278 which quickly becoming one of the worst highways in the region. I wasn't aware that was the main , sometimes i don't do research the names of the Railway. But they need to do something to that corridor its quickly becoming jammed....
     
  12. Feb 3, 2011 #12

    Nexis4Jersey

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    Form what i heard Donald Trump would pay half the cost of the Hudson line extension and it would 3rd Rail powered. The Hudson line would benefit his Developments in the 60s.... The Trump Developments are = to Co-Op city and Park Chester so that mean alot of ppl would be added to this line and given an alt to the congested subway.
     
  13. Feb 3, 2011 #13

    Train2104

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    IIRC, the M8's have dual-mode shoes, but the pilot cars won't have them, only the production ones.
     
  14. Feb 3, 2011 #14

    Green Maned Lion

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    With all due respect, I don't think Dutch knows as much as he likes people to think he does. Working for Metro North and being a mechanical engineer are two different things.

    Which is a sentiment I have had for years and generally hold my tongue on. But quoting him as a reason why something is technically unpractical is a little much.

    Beyond that, it was no less a man than Albert Einstein that said something to the effect of, "If a young scientist says something is possible, he is likely right. If an old scientist says something is impossible, he is very likely wrong." So even if he does have the technical background to render such an opinion with an iota of credibility, I still say it means little.

    Donald... Trump paying for something like that? Dude, there is a difference between dreaming and psychosis. You're breaching it.
     
  15. Feb 3, 2011 #15

    Nexis4Jersey

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    If he gets something out of it , why wouldn't he invest in it? Hes a businessman , he makes smart decisions....
     
  16. Feb 3, 2011 #16

    AlanB

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    Whether or not the Donald is willing to pay for such a thing is irrelevant. It doesn't help!

    MN still uses an under-running third rail and so once the train reaches Penn Station where the LIRR's over-running third rails exist, the train will lose power and break off all of it's third rail shoes.
     
  17. Feb 3, 2011 #17

    AlanB

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    The M8's will not have dual-mode shoes, as no such thing exists.

    The M8's however are dual-mode trains, they will be able to run off of third rail or catenary, which is what I think you're thinking of.
     
  18. Feb 3, 2011 #18

    AlanB

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    With the exception of our current discussion regarding the Park Avenue tunnels, I've never found Dutch to be wrong about things related to MN. And even now I'm not saying that he is wrong regarding the Park Ave tunnels, just that it doesn't make sense to me with the facts at hand.

    However, I wasn't quoting him in my statement, even though he has said similar things in the past. Yes, there may well be a way around such a problem, but it won't be easy and it may not even be cost effective to consider it. However, until ESA is complete and until it is absolutely determined that the LIRR will indeed lease spots to MN, there is no reason for anyone at MN to be working on shoes that could work on both under-running and over-running third rails. MN has no reason to waste money on something that they don't presently need.
     
  19. Feb 3, 2011 #19

    Nexis4Jersey

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    That 3rd Rail issue didn't even come to my mind.....why do they use 2 different 3rd Rails types?
     
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  20. Feb 3, 2011 #20

    Long Train Runnin'

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    They were built as 2 different railroads during the time of construction I'm sure no one ever dreamed that the two railroads would be owned and operated by the same state sponsored agency. They were in competition with each other.
     
  21. Feb 3, 2011 #21

    jis

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    For the New Haven Line to Penn what I have heard is that they will use dedicated M9s with overruning third rail shoes, and extend third rail to CP Gate. M9s will run on overhead power to CP Gate and transition to overruning 3rd rail there.

    For Hudson Line the only thing that seems practical (without spending gobs of money) is to have a few dedicated P32ACDMs with retractable overruning shoes to run push pulls (POU - NYP), just like the Amtrak P32ACDMs. Changing from overruning to underrunning shoes and vice versa in shop is not that difficult or time consuming.
     
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  22. Feb 3, 2011 #22

    AlanB

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    Interesting! Why would they not run on the overhead cat? That seems easier and it keeps the cars compatible with the M8's, should they need to divert to GCT.

    Agreed. :)
     
  23. Feb 3, 2011 #23

    jis

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    Because the M8s are incapable of operating under 25Hz without melting down their main transformer and producing the requisite pyrotechnics :) . 60Hz ends at CP Gate.
     
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  24. Feb 4, 2011 #24

    Green Maned Lion

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    Excuse me, Jishnu, and I might be off because for whatever reason the bottle of Plymouth was even better than usual, but I coulda sworn the M8s were specifically designed to run all the way from Penn to New London. Or am I thinking of something involving SLE through running?
     
  25. Feb 4, 2011 #25

    AlanB

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    Maybe if Bill happens along he can explain better, but I have to wonder why it's not easier and cheaper to just modify things to handle the 25hz; rather than installing third rail, dealing with retractable shoes, and cutting the flexibility to run to GCT.
     

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