Miami Intermodal Center (f/k/a Miami Central Station)

Discussion in 'Amtrak Rail Discussion' started by Ispolkom, Sep 11, 2013.

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  1. Jun 8, 2018 #251

    jis

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    Reading Brightline's analysis on which their business plan is based, I don't think they will even notice if not even a single current Amtrak passenger moves to Brightline. Frankly, they are not after the Orlando - Southeast Florida demographic that rides Amtrak today at all. So they will be perfectly happy to let you continue tot ravel by Amtrak if that suites you. Their success or failure is quite independent of Amtrak's service.
     
  2. Jun 8, 2018 #252

    AmtrakLKL

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    Pretty sure Brightline won't impact Amtrak at all. I'm optimistic they will raise the overall profile of rail travel as an option for Floridians who will discover Amtrak can take them to many more places, at far cheaper fares, than Brightline will ever offer.

    Who has ever said we don't serve the Miami Airport out of operational convenience?

    Would you kindly provide the data you have used to determine what the added costs and revenue estimates will be? I assume you have current copies of all work agreements and pay scales, plus the station rental contract and railroad use contracts with FDOT. I'm sure you've also figured out the timing of moves between Tri-Rail's morning and evening rush hours to understand when the deadheads would be able to move between the MIC and Hialeah Yard (keeping in mind this has a big effect on wage cost). You must also have a statistical ridership model using the latest GIS dataset to estimate the revenue increase. Kindly Private Message me your data sources along with bottom line cost and revenue numbers and I'll pass them right along. Surely we'll be running to the MIC within a few weeks of your information setting Amtrak straight.

    So someone sitting at 1 Mass has a better understanding of all the operating intricacies/costs involved with this station relocation and would be better equipped to determine the costs and movement requirements than the actual on-the-ground operating people who will have to make this work every day? If the operations people were told to go, we'd go. It's been discussed at the operating people level many, many, many times. We've had people qualified down there because the operations people were told to get ready only to have a deal fall through again.

    Do you actually believe everything that spews from your keyboard, neroden? Move Hialeah to Pennsylvania? Brightline kill everything south of Orlando? How are people going to get from Amtrak to Brightline and vice versa? Passengers traveling to anywhere other than West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale or Downtown Miami won't be able to take Brightline assuming they even want to make the 30-45 minute drive between Orlando Amtrak and the Orlando airport.

    What about passengers traveling to Kissimmee, Lakeland, Tampa, Winter Haven, Sebring, Okeechobee, Delray Beach, Deerfield Beach, Hollywood and Miami/Hialeah? What option do they have on Brightline?

    Have you even ridden Brightline? Brightline and Amtrak might as well be on two different planets. Yes, I wish our equipment and time keeping was more on Brightline's planet, but demographics are completely different. Brightline is creating a NEW market. They aren't going to cannibalize Amtrak or Tri-Rail. They're going after existing highway users and eventually those who currently fly or drive between Orlando and South Florida. I think they might actually raise the profile of rail as an option in Florida and help more Floridians find that Amtrak can take them more places at cheaper fares than Brightline.
     
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  3. Jun 8, 2018 #253

    jis

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    Actually I don't for a moment believe Brightline will kill everything south of Orlando after 2021. There will be a significant fare differential, and Brightline is not even targeting the demographics of the Amtrak Coach passenger, since I believe Brightline Smart fare will be higher than Amtrak Coach fare, carrying a premium for speed and convenience. Just like Acelas do not kill off all NER ridership Brightline will not kill off all Amtrak ridership. Even Brightline's own ridership and market share analysis does not suggest so.
     
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  4. Jun 8, 2018 #254

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  5. Jun 10, 2018 #255

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    IMHO the cheapest solution and operationally would be for FL DOT to buy the one business west of the bridge that uses the canal. Close the canal (Miami river ) to navigation west of the bridges. Then the second bridge could be built parallel to the present one and the track remain at grade level. 36th street, other streets, metro rail, and the CSX freight turnout all present very expensive solutions that might require a bridge costing as much as $1.0B to span the roads and provide CSX with a useable grade ? That one business would not cost more than $20M
     
  6. Jun 10, 2018 #256

    bretton88

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    In the presentation, the project costs 44.2 million for the most expensive option, not 1 billion.
     
  7. Jun 10, 2018 #257

    Just-Thinking-51

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    Thank you (AmtrakLKL) for that nice long detail statement.

    However Amtrak at first declined to use the Airport station. So the station was push back north with smaller platforms for Tri-Rail.

    Then Amtrak states it would use the station. The short platform became a problem. FDoT then build a bridge. So Amtrak could fit the Slivers into the station.

    Now what the issue that is preventing Amtrak from using the Airport station?

    Too much of a hassle?

    Extra cost?

    Use the station or dont use the station. Pick one Amtrak.

    Stop making excuses, and or demands. Just pick a plan and stick to it. This is why people are having a cow.

    Surprised Florida has not yet taken Amtrak to court.
     
  8. Jun 10, 2018 #258

    jis

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    There is no bridge that was built.

    The platform is still too short and a full length Meteor still does not fit the platform.

    Looks like Amtrak has pretty much decided not to move AFAICT. Maybe Thirdrail knows more about the inside skinny.

    I was privately informed that Amtrak is not going to move, about four years back now, and so far that has proved to be true.

    People do not need reasons to have cows sometimes. They just like cows.
     
  9. Jun 10, 2018 #259

    AmtrakLKL

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    I believe cost is the main issue. If it was a bottom-line positive move we'd already be down there. Anything that increases Amtrak's cash-loss isn't going to happen. If you could plan some service change that resulted in a 100% increase in riders/revenue, but bottom-line cost went up 10%, even though the overall efficiency/metrics are much better, Amtrak won't make the change.

    The platform is long enough for the standard Silver Meteor consist of two engines, four coaches, lounge, diner, three sleepers and baggage car (~990 feet). That will just fit on the 1,000 ft platform. The issue is when a fifth coach and sometimes fourth sleeper are added during peak holiday weeks. Even then all the passenger car vestibules would be on the platform with just the engines blocking the crossing, but with the bypass road now open the blocked crossing issue is now moot.

    TLDR; Platform wise, Amtrak could go to the airport. Everything else-wise, Amtrak is not going to the airport.
     
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  10. Jun 10, 2018 #260

    neroden

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    Yet again, Amtrak management proves that it doesn't like revenue or ridership.

    AmtrakLKL makes the typical sort of claims you'd expect from operations -- focused on costs. Worth ignoring.

    I *do* have ridership and revenue models. Amtrak is notoriously poor with its own internal revenue models, probably because they have too many parameters -- it is known that for ridership/revenue modelling, simpler models with fewer parameters tend to work better.

    There are some reliable rules of thumb for the value of intermodal connections. Feel free to look them up yourself and use them.

    I'll just give one simple anecdote: if Amtrak were going to the intermodal station, I'd take Amtrak from Syracuse to Miami this year for a convention. Since it's going to the car-dependent Hialeah station, I'm not taking the trip at all. I'm a price-insensitive customer. :shrug: Amtrak doesn't like ridership, and it doesn't like revenue.
     
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  11. Jun 11, 2018 #261

    Palmetto

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    Just a quick question, Nathanael: If flying to Fort Lauderdale were cheaper than flying to Miami, would you insist on flying to Miami, even though Fort Lauderdale is cheaper?

    When Tr-Rail begins operating to the Brightline station in downtown, your argument would seem to pale, if I understand you correctly. It would be a simple matter of changing trains at Hollywood. Am I missing something?
     
  12. Jun 11, 2018 #262

    frequentflyer

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    Even with the platform issue figured out the station is too far from the yard. And Amtrak is not going to spend big money builidng a new one near by (not like there is room for one anyway.)
     
  13. Feb 20, 2019 #263

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    Is there any hope of Amtrak moving to MIC in 2019...or anytime for that matter? :unsure:
     
  14. Feb 20, 2019 #264

    Just-Thinking-51

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    No, moving to MIC would increase cost. So it will not happen.  Current leadership is all about cutting expenses, not about growth.
     
  15. Feb 20, 2019 #265

    cirdan

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    The engines would be on the crossing when the train is ready to depart, northbound.

    But when the train has just arrived, southbound, surely the engines are at the south end, and the vehicles on the crossing will be passenger cars.
     
  16. Feb 20, 2019 #266

    jis

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    At the rate Amtrak is going, soon these trains will be five car trains and platform length will become a non-issue :D
     
  17. Feb 20, 2019 #267

    daybeers

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    It would most likely increase revenue though, so it would be a net profit, but oh well.
     
  18. Feb 20, 2019 #268

    tricia

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    How cynical we've become! Justified given the trajectory of recent changes, but sad nonetheless.  :(

    Wouldn't it be nice to have more things to be happy about when we think about Amtrak's current conditions? Sigh.

    Personally, I'm hoping my roundtrip on the Crescent over the next week won't be too bad.  :unsure:
     
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  19. Feb 20, 2019 #269

    cpotisch

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    I thought they gave up altogether on the move to MIC? It’s still actually in the works?
     
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  20. Feb 20, 2019 #270

    chrsjrcj

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    There is a wye just north of the station (where the CSX line continues south around the airport and to Homestead). They would have to rebuild the southern leg of the wye though. 

    In other news, Tri-Rail/FDOT appear to be moving forward with the plan to add a second track over the Miami River (err...canal) just north of the station. That capacity constraint is one less excuse Amtrak will have for not moving to the new station. 
     
  21. Feb 22, 2019 #271

    blueman271

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    I don’t think track capacity was ever really an excuse Amtrak used. Regardless once Tri-Rail starts running half their trains to MiamiCentral track capacity will be an even bigger non-issue. 
     
  22. Feb 22, 2019 #272

    jis

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    In almost any other country they would have shut down the 25th St crossing, and built a major crossing on the 28th St. and had all 25th St traffic take that jog, and they would have built a platform to accommodate 15 cars. But in a place that has a department of Transportation, which is a misnomer. Apparently someone spelled Department of Highways wrong. They can barely handle trains let alone figure out what to do with them, and with an inattentive Amtrak to go with it, we have what we have.
     
  23. Feb 22, 2019 #273

    west point

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    That second bridge over the Miami river is a real puzzle..  A bit of history.  In the late 1950s the Miami river was navigable  through Miami Sprigs, Doral, Hialeah Gardens to what is now the Miami canal.  A least 6 Drawbridges of different designs crossed the river including the  then SAL rail line near MIA airport.   Circa 1950s to prevent the everglades  draining too low a series of retention dams were built around the everglades to raise the water some 3 - 4 feet in the everglades .  Including one about 300 feet NW of the SAL draw bridge with a lock.  Then Navigation was discontinued except for boats that would clear all inoperative draw bridges except for the SAL bridge.  New regular bridges have been built that now span the river ( canal ? ) west of the dam including  LA June Rd. There is one ( was?)  business  west of the SAL draw bridge and east of the retention dam somehow associated with the airport.  So for about once or twice a week the now TriRail draw bridge is raised. 

    Now the desire and need for a second bridge is needed.  IMO it would be cheaper to buy out the business just west of the draw than build a second draw.  There are many water related business just east of the RR draw.  A ballast deck bridge could be traveled much faster especially the CSX freights that take the NW leg of the wye past the airport.   Coast guard and corps of engineers may have to approve,  Note the business may be already closed but someone will have to let us know.
     
  24. Feb 22, 2019 #274

    chrsjrcj

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    Tri-Rail will still operate a shuttle train between 79th Street and MIA for the 24 trains that don't continue to the Airport. They are required to operate 48 weekday trains a day on the corridor, part of the deal when the Feds contributed to the double tracking project +15 years ago. Of course, considering the current administration, they might not care anymore. 

    Regarding the new Miami River (canal) bridge, according to this powerpoint presentation the one marina to the west of the bridge is now vacant. The project also includes a completing a missing link of double track between just north of the Hialeah Market station and the Miami Airport station. 
     
  25. Feb 22, 2019 #275

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