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[AutoTrDvr]

Since most of my recent travel has been AT, of course, I understand that meals are included in the ticket price. However, I also understand that for sleeper/FC pax. on Acela and LD trains, the meals are also included in the ticket price. But are they the same selections as we see in the menus posted for that particular LD route?

Example: The SWC/EB/CS all seem to have the same menu selections, although the menu itself (i.e. the PDF you can download from the Amtrak site) appears to be printed specifically for that particular route). Each has the "Angus Flat Iron Steak," the "Vegetarian Lasagna," the "Herb Roasted Half Chicken," and the "Seared Talapia." That's fine. But are those the choices you get if you are a sleeper pax. on those trains, where "meals are included in the ticket price?"

Point being, these selections have pricing on those menus, with the steak being the most expensive, as expected. If these choices are "included in the ticket price," for sleeper pax, I would imagine that the "meal price" factored into the ticket would be for the most expensive item (the steak), although it might not be what the pax. chooses, and to obtain their money's worth, the pax. may as well always choose the most expensive meal (the steak), as a result.

Or, are there some other menus for sleeping car pax. where there is no pricing, but the selection is somewhat more "fixed," as it is on the AT, such that the cost is about even for each choice?

Just curious...yet again...

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Point being, these selections have pricing on those menus, with the steak being the most expensive, as expected. If these choices are "included in the ticket price," for sleeper pax, I would imagine that the "meal price" factored into the ticket would be for the most expensive item (the steak), although it might not be what the pax. chooses, and to obtain their money's worth, the pax. may as well always choose the most expensive meal (the steak), as a result.

On the LD trains I have been on, the menus offered sleeper passengers are the same ones offered coach passengers. So, yes, sleeper passengers get to see the prices.

I have never ordered the most expensive item, simply because its the most expensive. Matter of fact, I am pretty picky about steaks I eat, and I have never ordered a steak on-board a LD train. There are typically some other rather tasty selections available, and I choose one of them.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

I have never ordered the most expensive item, simply because its the most expensive. Matter of fact, I am pretty picky about steaks I eat, and I have never ordered a steak on-board a LD train. There are typically some other rather tasty selections available, and I choose one of them.

No worries. I have not done so either, unless it's what I really wanted, and/or I was paying for it. To be honest, I did order the steak on my older "Broadway Ltd." trips, but I was in the "Slumbercoach" and had to pay for it. The steak was very good back then.

My concern was more in how Amtrak chose to factor in the cost into the price of a sleeper ticket, since "meals are included" for sleeper pax. and I have personally witnessed what that experience is like on the AT.

 

[amamba]

There are no prices on the acela FC menus, because there is nothing to charge anyone. The menus that you see on the website are the same ones that you get on the train. There are a bunch of menus and they change the menu weekly. You can see the menus here:

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/960/422/Acela-First-Calss-Menu-2012.pdf

I actually have pictures of many of the dishes on my blog. Here is an example:

http://trainsacrossamerica.blogspot.com/2012/05/2153-acela-express-first-class.html

 

[me_little_me]

We have always picked a meal based on our interest at the time, what and how much we have eaten that day and/or on previous days (independent of whether we have been on the train) and on what just "looks good" as we peruse what others are eating or what the "special" is. We never consider the price as a determining factor.

 

[Ana]

I pick what I want, not based on the price (though I do always go for the steak). For that matter, I miss out on breakfast and lunch because it's too hard for me to have gluten free, but there's no point in bemoaning the waste of that money. I'm paying for a roomette because I want a roomette, and I can't separate out the meals. Such is life.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

My concern was more in how Amtrak chose to factor in the cost into the price of a sleeper ticket, since "meals are included" for sleeper pax.

IMHO, rather poorly. I don't think there is any kind of intentional factoring of meals into sleeper car revenue.

I have mentioned this before, and get trounced for it, but I think that Amtrak really needs to hire some accountant from the Cruise industry to come up with a way to handle the dining car finances.

 

[the_traveler]

I also do not look at the "prices", but choose what looks or sounds good that day. Also, you mentioned in another thread that you'll be on the CS. If in a sleeper, there is a separate sleeper passenger only Lounge Car (hopefully a PPC), and you can eat there if you wish - and it has a different menu from the "regular" Dining Car!

 

[AutoTrDvr]

I also do not look at the "prices", but choose what looks or sounds good that day. Also, you mentioned in another thread that you'll be on the CS. If in a sleeper, there is a separate sleeper passenger only Lounge Car (hopefully a PPC), and you can eat there if you wish - and it has a different menu from the "regular" Dining Car!

Just to clarify, my travel on the CS is not yet scheduled... only on the "wish/bucket" list, at this point. It would be part of my "round the country" tour (Card-->SWC-->CS-->EB-->LSL). I think whatever the standard dining car menu turns out to be will be just fine. These days, I'm learning more towards the fish side of things for health reasons, but I still can enjoy a good steak.

 

[AlanB]

My concern was more in how Amtrak chose to factor in the cost into the price of a sleeper ticket, since "meals are included" for sleeper pax.

IMHO, rather poorly. I don't think there is any kind of intentional factoring of meals into sleeper car revenue.

I have mentioned this before, and get trounced for it, but I think that Amtrak really needs to hire some accountant from the Cruise industry to come up with a way to handle the dining car finances.

Absolutely incorrect!

Amtrak has always allocated a portion of the sleeper revenues to the dining car to account for those meals. And when they first started including meals, the sleeper fares saw a very hefty hike in part because of some of the revenues now being sent to the dining car.

Could Amtrak improve things in the dining cars? I'm sure that there are things that can be done. But without the per meal allocation of sleeper funds to the dining car, the dining cars would not exist today. They only exist because meals are included with sleeper tickets, fares were raised to accommodate that, and those extra monies improved the dining car's bottom line enough to justify keeping them.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Absolutely incorrect!

Amtrak has always allocated a portion of the sleeper revenues to the dining car to account for those meals. And when they first started including meals, the sleeper fares saw a very hefty hike in part because of some of the revenues now being sent to the dining car.

I thought that operating costs of the diner cars weren't being adequately covered (100% or more) by the reallocation of enough money from the sleeping car revenue. As you mentioned, I guess that's incorrect. Sorry.

 

[alanh]

One note about the Coast Starlight: it offers meals in the Pacific Parlour car that are different from the ones in the diner, so in that one case sleeping car passengers have choices not available to coach. The menus are on that train's webpage.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

My concern was more in how Amtrak chose to factor in the cost into the price of a sleeper ticket, since "meals are included" for sleeper pax.

IMHO, rather poorly. I don't think there is any kind of intentional factoring of meals into sleeper car revenue.

I have mentioned this before, and get trounced for it, but I think that Amtrak really needs to hire some accountant from the Cruise industry to come up with a way to handle the dining car finances.

Absolutely incorrect!

Amtrak has always allocated a portion of the sleeper revenues to the dining car to account for those meals. And when they first started including meals, the sleeper fares saw a very hefty hike in part because of some of the revenues now being sent to the dining car.

Could Amtrak improve things in the dining cars? I'm sure that there are things that can be done. But without the per meal allocation of sleeper funds to the dining car, the dining cars would not exist today. They only exist because meals are included with sleeper tickets, fares were raised to accommodate that, and those extra monies improved the dining car's bottom line enough to justify keeping them.

Something I find interesting is that back in the 1940s when meals were not included in most or all Sleeper fares, the Sleeper fares were significantely higher then they are today if you factor in inflation. For example a Roomette for one NYG-CHI plus base fare would cost a total of at least $1200 in today's money, without the extra fare for the Century. Pretty sure that kinda has to do with why Amtrak loses as much money as they do, not saying that all trains made money back then.

 

[PRR 60]

Absolutely incorrect!

Amtrak has always allocated a portion of the sleeper revenues to the dining car to account for those meals. And when they first started including meals, the sleeper fares saw a very hefty hike in part because of some of the revenues now being sent to the dining car.

I thought that operating costs of the diner cars weren't being adequately covered (100% or more) by the reallocation of enough money from the sleeping car revenue. As you mentioned, I guess that's incorrect. Sorry.

No, you are correct. Despite the allocation of some portion of the sleeping car accommodation charge to food and beverage, the dining cars still do not cover costs.

 

[Ispolkom]

to obtain their money's worth, the pax. may as well always choose the most expensive meal (the steak), as a result.

I often order the steak for dinner, not because it's expensive, but because it's safe. It's a habit I got into traveling by car about the American West. It's pretty hard to screw up a steak and a baked potato, and even the crummiest cafe usually puts some effort into the dish.

The alternatives can be pretty good, but when in doubt I go for the steak. The vegetarian lasagna, though, is about the saddest thing I've ever seen on a plate anywhere (and I lived in the Soviet Union).

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I tend to rotate my menu selections simply to give variety, especially if I am on a long haul where I may be looking at a dozen or so AmMeals. But if I cross paths with Lamb on the menu, that is an automatic must have default, and I'm happy to say Amtrak does a very good job with the Lamb offerings.

 

[Ispolkom]

Something I find interesting is that back in the 1940s when meals were not included in most or all Sleeper fares, the Sleeper fares were significantely higher then they are today if you factor in inflation. For example a Roomette for one NYG-CHI plus base fare would cost a total of at least $1200 in today's money, without the extra fare for the Century. Pretty sure that kinda has to do with why Amtrak loses as much money as they do, not saying that all trains made money back then.

Where did you find this fare data? My research into this issue seemed to show that sleeping car fares were broadly similar to those today, but coach fares were much more expensive. Remember that in that era, railroads had little freedom to set their own fares. The ICC did that.

 

[Texan Eagle]

One note about the Coast Starlight: it offers meals in the Pacific Parlour car that are different from the ones in the diner, so in that one case sleeping car passengers have choices not available to coach. The menus are on that train's webpage.

When a Pacific Parlour Car is bad ordered and substituted with a CCC or SSL, is the PPC specific menu still available and served in the lounge/CCC?

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

One note about the Coast Starlight: it offers meals in the Pacific Parlour car that are different from the ones in the diner, so in that one case sleeping car passengers have choices not available to coach. The menus are on that train's webpage.

When a Pacific Parlour Car is bad ordered and substituted with a CCC or SSL, is the PPC specific menu still available and served in the lounge/CCC?

Yes, the PPC Menu should still be available as the food is actually prepared in the Diner and "walked over" to the PPC-that is one reason the service end of the PPC backs up to the Diner. On my last trip, one of the PPC Attendants said they finally suspended the in car steam table service since many folks would wander in and start serving themselves buffet style.

 

[the_traveler]

Also note that back in the 1920's and 1930’s, sleeper fares even if "inexpensive" (by today's standards) were way out of reach for the "average" American! And a little off topic, flying was just the opposite. Not until the main airlines used jets did flying become affordable for many. And that's about the same time that train travel started to go downhill!

 

[AlanB]

Absolutely incorrect!

Amtrak has always allocated a portion of the sleeper revenues to the dining car to account for those meals. And when they first started including meals, the sleeper fares saw a very hefty hike in part because of some of the revenues now being sent to the dining car.

I thought that operating costs of the diner cars weren't being adequately covered (100% or more) by the reallocation of enough money from the sleeping car revenue. As you mentioned, I guess that's incorrect. Sorry.

No, you are correct. Despite the allocation of some portion of the sleeping car accommodation charge to food and beverage, the dining cars still do not cover costs.

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you. Dining cars do NOT cover 100% of their costs; that is correct. What is incorrect is to say that sleepers have anything to do with the fact that the diners don't cover 100% of their costs. My understanding is, and I've not seen real numbers this is just based upon some reliable sources now retired from Amtrak, that more than enough money is allocated from sleeper revenues to cover the costs of the meals eaten by sleeper pax and to cover the overhead of the crew serving those meals.

But despite that, the dining cars still lose money. This is do in part to the hefty costs associated with operating a kitchen at 80 MPH, waste as food goes bad, and of course the fact that they cannot fill up the dining cars to capacity due to the decreased staffing.

Let me also point out that despite the monies allocated to the diners, sleeper pax still manage to cover their extra above the rail costs via the fares paid. The only subsidy that a sleeper pax receives is to the base railfare, much like every passenger in coach gets. In fact, the overall profit from sleepers actually reduces the subsidy needed for coach pax by a bit.

 

[PRR 60]

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you. Dining cars do NOT cover 100% of their costs; that is correct. What is incorrect is to say that sleepers have anything to do with the fact that the diners don't cover 100% of their costs. My understanding is, and I've not seen real numbers this is just based upon some reliable sources now retired from Amtrak, that more than enough money is allocated from sleeper revenues to cover the costs of the meals eaten by sleeper pax and to cover the overhead of the crew serving those meals.

But despite that, the dining cars still lose money. This is do in part to the hefty costs associated with operating a kitchen at 80 MPH, waste as food goes bad, and of course the fact that they cannot fill up the dining cars to capacity due to the decreased staffing.

Let me also point out that despite the monies allocated to the diners, sleeper pax still manage to cover their extra above the rail costs via the fares paid. The only subsidy that a sleeper pax receives is to the base railfare, much like every passenger in coach gets. In fact, the overall profit from sleepers actually reduces the subsidy needed for coach pax by a bit.

Total LD dining car revenue in FY 2011 was $57.9 million. That includes both the revenue from paying coach passengers and the ledger transfer from the accommodation charge for sleeper passengers. The LD dining car labor alone was $78 million in FY 20111. The commissary costs were $53.9 million. That results in a loss of $73.9 million only using direct costs. The overheads, including allocations for operating and maintaining the cars, are on top of those expenses. No matter how one tries to tweak those numbers, sleeper passengers, like paying coach passengers, do not even come close to covering the direct costs of the LD dining cars, much less fully allocated costs.

 

[NW cannonball]

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you. Dining cars do NOT cover 100% of their costs; that is correct. What is incorrect is to say that sleepers have anything to do with the fact that the diners don't cover 100% of their costs. My understanding is, and I've not seen real numbers this is just based upon some reliable sources now retired from Amtrak, that more than enough money is allocated from sleeper revenues to cover the costs of the meals eaten by sleeper pax and to cover the overhead of the crew serving those meals.

But despite that, the dining cars still lose money. This is do in part to the hefty costs associated with operating a kitchen at 80 MPH, waste as food goes bad, and of course the fact that they cannot fill up the dining cars to capacity due to the decreased staffing.

Let me also point out that despite the monies allocated to the diners, sleeper pax still manage to cover their extra above the rail costs via the fares paid. The only subsidy that a sleeper pax receives is to the base railfare, much like every passenger in coach gets. In fact, the overall profit from sleepers actually reduces the subsidy needed for coach pax by a bit.

Total LD dining car revenue in FY 2011 was $57.9 million. That includes both the revenue from paying coach passengers and the ledger transfer from the accommodation charge for sleeper passengers. The LD dining car labor alone was $78 million in FY 20111. The commissary costs were $53.9 million. That results in a loss of $73.9 million only using direct costs. The overheads, including allocations for operating and maintaining the cars, are on top of those expenses. No matter how one tries to tweak those numbers, sleeper passengers, like paying coach passengers, do not even come close to covering the direct costs of the LD dining cars, much less fully allocated costs.

I don't know or understand the finances of the dining cars

I do know that the "regional special" - Maryland Crab Cakes - on the Silver Star a few weeks ago was really tasty.

If I could afford it, I'd do that trip again just for the Crab Cakes. Best I ever tasted.

 

[dlagrua]

Also note that back in the 1920's and 1930’s, sleeper fares even if "inexpensive" (by today's standards) were way out of reach for the "average" American! And a little off topic, flying was just the opposite. Not until the main airlines used jets did flying become affordable for many. And that's about the same time that train travel started to go downhill!

Lets take a look at fares way back in the late 50's and early 60's.

Looks like the sleeper fares were only a small fraction of the coach price.

 

[amamba]

Also note that back in the 1920's and 1930’s, sleeper fares even if "inexpensive" (by today's standards) were way out of reach for the "average" American! And a little off topic, flying was just the opposite. Not until the main airlines used jets did flying become affordable for many. And that's about the same time that train travel started to go downhill!

Lets take a look at fares way back in the late 50's and early 60's.

$54.85 in 1955 is equivalent to $441.50 in 2010 dollars.

Source: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/