Lake Shore/Capitol Limited Sleeping Car Menu Refresh 1/16/19

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Ryan's information is consistent with the feedback received by RPA (f/k/a NARP).
Citation please.

Me. I started this thread while updating the other. The cafe refresh was supposed to take effect on the nineteenth. When I edited the title, I mistakenly merged the two ideas. The cafe is the nineteenth, the dining menu is the sixteenth.
*Eek*  There's a cafe refresh happening too?  Here's hoping it's not another downgrade...

I'm very fond of the current "new" (as of mid-2018) cafe menu, which actually provided a decent selection of options for the first time.  (And I have purchased an average of four boiled eggs per trip, already, and a salad on every trip as well.)  I hope the cafe refresh is an upgrade and not another downgrade.
 
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Ryan's information is consistent with the feedback received by RPA (f/k/a NARP).
I assume that's based on inside information, so you have no citation?

I'm in the group who doesn't care about "traditional" dining car service and theoretically happy with boxed meals, but also found the initial deployment to be totally unacceptable in lack of suitable food selections.  Was this documented in the RPA feedback?
 
How many of us on this forum have a clear memory of what full dining car service was like in the 50s?  Or even the 60s?  It was 'first class' at it's finest.  Real silverware, real china with a railroad and even train specific pattern, and a multitude of types of dishes from dinner plates to relish plates, and even finger bowls.  Of course, this included perfectly washed and pressed table cloths, napkins, and real sugar bowls and small pitchers of cream.  There were typically 8-10 entrees on each of the three daily menus and often, local or route specific specialties such as trout on the menu.   All this was served by a staff of 3-4 waiters and head waiter/maitre'd, all impeccably dressed in starched white jackets and black pants.  There were 3 or 4 in the kitchen as well.  To get that kind of service today at a brick and mortar restaurant you're looking at $80 and up per meal.  Higher in New York City.

So who wants to pay $80 for a meal on a train that's served like 'the good ol' days'?  That not-filet-mignon steak dinner served on todays Amtrak LD trains, if served with all the bells and whistles of 1950s diner cars would likely be in the $80 range as well.  Remember, too, that back then, labor was cheap and tools, stoves, cars were comparatively expensive.  Today it's the opposite.  A decent living wage for an LSA is likely $30/hr, plus another $20/hr in benefits...maybe more considering Railroad Retirement Tier 2 'added taxes' is also matched by the RR.  (As an aside...Railroad Retirement Tier 1 is identical to Social Security in percentages taken and payouts, Tier 2 is essentially an RR-matched 'pension fund' that when paid out in retirement, is based on highest pay rate x some percentage x number of years worked under Railroad Retirement)

In short, there's no way John Q Public is willing to pay $45 for breakfast and $85-100 for dinner on a train.  For what it's worth, Ed Ellis tried to revive the 1950s train travel with a complete Pullman experience including meals...at $1500-2000 per person for one night.   Between fully restored (not redesigned/modern style) 1950s Pullman cars and uniformed staff and first class dinners, I suspect most buyers/riders were less than thrilled to be in a cramped, genuine 1950-style bedroom and rough IC/CN track CHI-NOL and did not do the trip a second time.

And though there are still a dwindling number of us old timers that can remember those great days of train travel, the bulk of what I see on NEC trains is largely 20-60 year old people, mostly business employees.  On LD trains, the number of 20-60 year olds surpassed the number of 60+ year olds at least 20 years ago...even in sleepers. 

So, it comes down to pleasing the 20-60 year old long distance travelers, many of whom appear to have limited funds for traveling.  How can Amtrak attract those passengers, especially for a second, third, or tenth time?  Whether they're vacationers going to major destinations or small town dwellers on their way to/from Podunk, MT, how can they be convinced/lured/'sold' on making additional trips on Amtrak?  First and foremost, don't 'break the bank' in charging for tickets.  In most LD markets, Amtrak is competing with everything from Megabus to Greyhound to discount airlines.  By the way...how many 'full service' airlines are 'doing well' these days?  Most have cut services to the bone and charge for everything!  Amtrak has to price its travel options to be competitive with other travel options, including driving.  Priced too high, passengers don't come back.  Priced too low?  Congress is on their back extra heavy to become  'profitable'. 

So, Amtrak has no choice, really, to become 'bare bones' food service.  How many 'frills' are included with dinner at McDonalds or Ruby Tuesday?   Now limit the cost of what's being served due to higher labor costs ($50/hr vs $10-12/hr for restaurant wait staff) as well as added maintenance costs due to the restaurant traveling 100,000 miles per year.  

I agree that $12 for a hamburger with chips and pickle is a bit high.  But compare that to a Big Mac and fries for about $8.  I prefer the diner-cooked burgers to McDonalds any time.  Even the burger on the Cardinal tastes better than a quarter pounder in my opinion.  

Consider the 'market' for what's being served on the train these days.  Satisfying various 'tastes' from vegan to kosher as well as 'real meat' people like myself is a menu creators' nightmare.  Keeping costs low is even more so.  But if it satisfies the 20-60 YO passengers, then it's a good choice.  However, based on the new menu, I don't think I'll partake of contemporary dining anytime soon.  I'll just keep walking through and get my food in the lounge car.
 
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When you think the Capitol Limited in the late 60s was known for its phenomenal meal service because the C&O/B&O kept the trains up till the bitter end. And now it has come to this garbage we have today. I'm looking forward to meeting the man responsible for keeping the standards this year. Funny he was also the president of Amtrak at one time.
 
No, it doesn't, Ryan.

I ride this train regularly.  (The LSL.)  Pretty much an angry mob at every meal.  So the angry mob theory makes sense.

That said, the recent changes have addressed the actual complaints.  The extreme carb loading seemed to be the biggest and most consistent complaint, as well as the lack of breakfast options, and these two combined to create serious breakfast complaints.  The lack of hot meals was the smaller complaint.  The staff were doing their best by offering the dinner meals as breakfast options.

Pretty much nobody cared about the lack of on-board cooking or of tablecloths or of waiters, as far as I can tell.  So Amtrak has actually now addressed ALL the complaints of the angry mob.  People will probably settle down, since the genuinely common complaints seem to have been addressed.  It still seems dumb to me that Amtrak management didn't *expect* those complaints, since they were obvious in advance to me, and I'm no expert.  But it's fixed now.

The coach passengers who aren't eating in the dining car won't complain -- because the cafe car menu was massively improved, addressing a complaint which has been recurring for several decades.  I still think Amtrak would get more money if they offered coach customers a "meal pass" for purchase, but nobody will *complain*.
I’m not sure how you can start a post disagreeing with me, and then go on to make the exact same points that I did, but whatever works for you.

It’s clear that the complaints of people that actually experienced the service was addressed.  

It’s equally clear that feedback from those actual riders was mixed, and some thought the meals to be good, and even an improvement over what came before them.

It’s equally clear that the complaints related to traditional dining by the Internet Complainers (which is what I meant by the “angry mob”), were not addressed.  You also stated that “nobody cared about the lack of on-board cooking or of tablecloths or of waiters, as far as I can tell.”

Seems like we’re in full agreement. 
 
I have been on the CL only once and talked to crew about the “fresh” choices. The crew wasn’t happy about the change from traditional dining and encouraged us to make an adverse report. They also all expressed concern that this would be the model going forward on all trains.

The new menu looks to be an improvement over what they started with but falls far short of what traditional dining is or could be, in my opinion.
 
I think you put far too much stock in how much Amtrak pays attention to complaining on Internet forums.
Perhaps, but the bean counters can establish a timeline starting when the cold menu went into effect, and the corresponding drop in pax. Matched with complaints by actual pax, which includes at least some of us  who frequent internet forums. Amtrak didn't upgrade "fresh and contemporary" to something more like a traditional diner because a ouija board told them to.
 
Currently on the LSL in Albany. Had dinner off the  new menu while waiting for the Boston section to limp in. Got the beef. I thought it was good, but I’m not a picky eater. A step up from what they had before anyway. Breakfast will be the real test. 
 
Looking at the menu... I notice the Gluten Free symbol on breakfast items but none on any of the lunch/ dinner entrees.  Since they are seemingly aware that Gluten Free people ride the train, seems odd that none of the meals are gluten free.

While Breakfast had nowhere to go but up, this is a nice improvement.  I feel like Amtrak is still missing the "VARIETY" part of the entrees. We went from all salads to all hot entrees didn't we?   Well... the antipasto plate is still there with a side salad.. so I guess that's kind of a salad option. 
 
Currently on the LSL in Albany. Had dinner off the  new menu while waiting for the Boston section to limp in. Got the beef. I thought it was good, but I’m not a picky eater. A step up from what they had before anyway. Breakfast will be the real test. 
Was the engine cut off (assuming the Boston section is at the front once it's attached)?  Just verifying if the new diners have back-up battery power.  Spent many dinners in the dark and cold in D.C. during the Meteor engine change southbound.  Some crews gave us glow sticks.

I think they also lost a diner seating due to the engine change at D.C. on the Meteor so the new diners may be more efficient but then again I don't know if the ovens will work on battery power. 
 
Was the engine cut off (assuming the Boston section is at the front once it's attached)?  Just verifying if the new diners have back-up battery power.  Spent many dinners in the dark and cold in D.C. during the Meteor engine change southbound.  Some crews gave us glow sticks.

I think they also lost a diner seating due to the engine change at D.C. on the Meteor so the new diners may be more efficient but then again I don't know if the ovens will work on battery power. 
An engine was connected the whole time so we had power 
 
Just had breakfast. There was an array of continental breakfast items on a couple of tables to take from, or you could get a hot sandwich (egg, ham, cheese sort of thing) or fruit. 

As I said before, I’m not a picky eater — Waffle House is a big night out for me — so I was fine with this. However, I would not be happy with this arrangement on a two-night train ride. 
 
Someone else has confirmed that the breakfast sandwich is microwaved to order. The prepared fruit is also kept behind the counter and must be requested.
 
Just had breakfast. There was an array of continental breakfast items on a couple of tables to take from, or you could get a hot sandwich (egg, ham, cheese sort of thing) or fruit.  As I said before, I’m not a picky eater — Waffle House is a big night out for me — so I was fine with this. However, I would not be happy with this arrangement on a two-night train ride. 
Just out of curiosity, are those "or's" non-negotiable dividers or do they offer to mix and match between the three?
 
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