Huge Variations in room prices for same length trip.

[Larry H.]

I just was considering a trip to Chicago from Centralia and on to Kansas City.. Looking at the two legs in a bedroom it was breathtaking the various charges. Both fall in around the 4 to 6 hour length of ride. The bedroom on the City is showing at 105.00 and the Southwest chief is at 539.00.. That is what I have often contended is rather uneven or even unfair pricing charging passengers for basically the same thing and in this case charging five time the cost for the same room. I know that many will say its what the market will bear. I still feel like a nationalized system should be more fair in its trip time length charges. Isn't that the argument about health care that the government can bring down the price. Here it would appear that it is simply raising it. I would love to see a schedule from pre amtrak days that showed the same room charges for comparison.

Larry

 

[Ryan]

Riding on a train isn't a matter of life or death, so comparing it to Health Care is like comparing apples to monkeys.

Charging what the market will bear is best for Amtrak's bottom line - it would be great if there were enough federal dollars there to make the trip $105 for either train, but that's just not realistic at this juncture.

 

[TVRM610]

Riding on a train isn't a matter of life or death, so comparing it to Health Care is like comparing apples to monkeys.

Charging what the market will bear is best for Amtrak's bottom line - it would be great if there were enough federal dollars there to make the trip $105 for either train, but that's just not realistic at this juncture.

Agreed Ryan. Do I agree that the Amtrak pricing system is crazy? Sure. But does it make business sense? Somewhat. I mean.. if rooms and in several cases trains are selling out they are doing something right in my mind.

 

[Ispolkom]

What's your alternative to supply-and-demand, Larry? In the 50s and 60s prices were different, but a) they were set by the ICC, b) there were a ton of sleepers available and c) losses on passenger travel helped drive many railroads into bankruptcy.

If you cut the price of the sleeper on the Southwest Chief, it'll just sell out faster. Is not having any sleeper space available better?

We'd all like more sleeper cars, but given the current bleating about deficits that's just pie in the sky. I'll be surprised if Amtrak gets the 135 cars it just announced.

So given the present situation of a limited supply of sleepers, what is your alternative?

 

[buck1108]

I just was considering a trip to Chicago from Centralia and on to Kansas City.. Looking at the two legs in a bedroom it was breathtaking the various charges. Both fall in around the 4 to 6 hour length of ride. The bedroom on the City is showing at 105.00 and the Southwest chief is at 539.00.. That is what I have often contended is rather uneven or even unfair pricing charging passengers for basically the same thing and in this case charging five time the cost for the same room. I know that many will say its what the market will bear. I still feel like a nationalized system should be more fair in its trip time length charges. Isn't that the argument about health care that the government can bring down the price. Here it would appear that it is simply raising it. I would love to see a schedule from pre amtrak days that showed the same room charges for comparison.

Larry

I agree with you Larry! Have a state-based system would even be better.

Well, if the Govt does this with Amtrak, just think how 'great' the healthcare will be.

Miss Smith, that will be $40 for your lower g.i. and $374,495 for your tonsillectomy.

 

[the_traveler]

I know it's a 5 letter word - but comparing it to planes, why are you seated in Row 21-a and paying $199, while the guy in 21-b paid $450?

And the woman in 2-a (First Class) paid $800?

All 3 seats should travel the same distance and reach the same airport at the same time!

It's called supply and demand! That's also why it's could be possible that tomorrow's train may cost less than one going to the same place 5 months from now!

 

[Guest]

I just was considering a trip to Chicago from Centralia and on to Kansas City.. Looking at the two legs in a bedroom it was breathtaking the various charges. Both fall in around the 4 to 6 hour length of ride. The bedroom on the City is showing at 105.00 and the Southwest chief is at 539.00.. That is what I have often contended is rather uneven or even unfair pricing charging passengers for basically the same thing and in this case charging five time the cost for the same room. I know that many will say its what the market will bear. I still feel like a nationalized system should be more fair in its trip time length charges. Isn't that the argument about health care that the government can bring down the price. Here it would appear that it is simply raising it. I would love to see a schedule from pre amtrak days that showed the same room charges for comparison.

Larry

Maybe keeping the sleeper capacity on the City IS Amtrak's way of keeping things fair. There may be times which some of those cars could probably make more revenue if placed on other routes at higher fares.

 

[Larry H.]

Does anyone think that more sleepers will drop the price? My guess would be not, even with more capacity available. What this pricing does is make if more and more costly and difficult for the average traveler who is not rolling in money to fork out the fare. Some how a six hour ride, even if in a bedroom seems a bit steep at close to 600.00. I still contend that a basically government system should charge a more even pricing since the public is already in some way paying for it.

 

[Guest]

I would guess that part of the reason for pricing CHI-KCY so high is because they could sell that same bedroom from CHI to LAX for much more than $600. There is probably much less demand from KCY to LAX.

 

[Rail Freak]

Do the CL Sleeper Prices seem to be lower than most ?

 

[PaulM]

I agree with you Larry! Have a state-based system would even be better.

Well, if the Govt does this with Amtrak, just think how 'great' the healthcare will be.

Miss Smith, that will be $40 for your lower g.i. and $374,495 for your tonsillectomy.

This post should be moved over to a politics forum where this type of logic is appreciated.

 

[jmbgeg]

I just was considering a trip to Chicago from Centralia and on to Kansas City.. Looking at the two legs in a bedroom it was breathtaking the various charges. Both fall in around the 4 to 6 hour length of ride. The bedroom on the City is showing at 105.00 and the Southwest chief is at 539.00.. That is what I have often contended is rather uneven or even unfair pricing charging passengers for basically the same thing and in this case charging five time the cost for the same room. I know that many will say its what the market will bear. I still feel like a nationalized system should be more fair in its trip time length charges. Isn't that the argument about health care that the government can bring down the price. Here it would appear that it is simply raising it. I would love to see a schedule from pre amtrak days that showed the same room charges for comparison.

Larry

Here is a pattern that I think that I have observed.

I often travel Spokane to Seattle on train 7. If I look to make a reservation well in advance of the trip I see high bucket fares for the SPK-SEA leg. Somtimes the closer that I get, I see lower fares. Some would argue that was a previous low bucket sleeper cancelled and going back into inventory. Could be... I think it also could be that Amtrak prices the SPK-SEA leg at high bucket until they sell most or all of the CHI-SPK leg. To sell SPK-SEA early at low bucket would block passangers who want to buy CHI-SEA fares. Thus, the premium for the short end leg. Am I right?

I do want to say that this summer I have been horrified by the $600+ bedroom prices SPK-SEA and SEA-SPK (same for PDX trains). Nosebleed territory.

My point for the OP is that the distance or travel time are only part of the variables in pricing. How the short leg fits into a long distance trains whole route and affects ticket sales also is relevant.

 

[Ryan]

Does anyone think that more sleepers will drop the price?

Add enough sleepers and either they'll run empty or Amtrak will lower the price.

I still contend that a basically government system should charge a more even pricing since the public is already in some way paying for it.

What the public is paying isn't enough to justify lower prices, unless priorities are shifted.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'll be honest here, I really don't understand how Amtrak prices their bedrooms. What kind of business logic sells me a "deluxe" bedroom for half the cost of a roomette? It just doesn't add up. I know people here understand how it works but I've yet to see anyone explain to me why it works this way. I never much liked the way airline seats are sold, but at least I could understand it once it was explained to me. Amtrak tickets, on the other hand, make even less sense to me the more I read about them.

 

[Ryan]

It's simple. Mind numbingly simple, because of the "features" available in the computer program that does this stuff.

Every class of ticket (bedroom, roomette, coach on the LD trains, business/first on Acela, etc) are broken into 4 or 5 price buckets.

So the fare structure of the Cap Limited from WAS-CHI might look something like this:

BUCKET   COACH    ROOMETTE    BEDROOM
 1      $100       $150        $200
 2      $125       $200        $300
 3      $150       $250        $400
 4      $175       $300        $500
 5      $200       $350        $600

In the olden days, that's it (OK, it's a little more complicated, there are actual letter codes for the bucket that you can see printed on your ticket, and I think that either coach or the sleepers have 4 buckets not 5, but the theory is there). No more complicated than that. Once all the $100 coach tickets are sold out, the price becomes $125. If most of the roomettes on the train are sold, an comparatively few bedrooms are sold, it's possible for a bedroom to be cheaper than a roomette.

Nowadays, Amtrak is getting a little more proactive about revenue management (they've always had the capability, but it seems they are doing that more often these days). Revenue management consists of Amtrak keeping an eye on how many tickets are sold, and adjusting the number of tickets in each bucket (or eliminating some buckets altogether) to maximize revenue. There's a thread around here on pricing for the SWC that indicates that as the rooms are made available for booking 11 months out, they were released at a higher bucket first to get more money out of people savvy enough to book as soon as they became available, but not savvy enough to cancel and rebook when the prices dropped a month later.

That's in in a nutshell - I've glossed over a lot and overgeneralized a bit, but if you can understand this, you've got the big picture.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If most of the roomettes on the train are sold, an comparatively few bedrooms are sold, it's possible for a bedroom to be cheaper than a roomette.

Yeah, I understand how the prices get mixed up, and I'm not complaining because half the time I'm actually benefiting from this nonsense, but Amtrak is probably losing money by selling late purchase bedrooms for less than tiny roomettes. They need to come up with a better system if they want congress to take them seriously, and it doesn't need to be actively managed by human input; it just needs to make business sense. Unfortunately that's still not quite the case. I'm honestly kind of shocked how cheap rooms can get the closer to departure you wait. Combined with the easy cancellation policies it's very easy to screw over Amtrak and ride for a lot less than you expected. Meanwhile first time riders are getting screwed themselves by a system that seems to penalize them for trying to plan far in advance. It's just plain nutty to newbies who are more in tune with airline pricing models.

 

[Larry H.]

I wasn't going to get any farther into this, but you all have brought up a interesting feature that they must have changed recently. I checked this fare for late october thinking it would be far enough out to have a decent fare. Maybe as your saying they are now sticking it to those of us who are trying to find a more reasonable rate than what is around now. Which it sounds like might not be the case?

 

[Ryan]

I'm honestly kind of shocked how cheap rooms can get the closer to departure you wait. Combined with the easy cancellation policies it's very easy to screw over Amtrak and ride for a lot less than you expected. Meanwhile first time riders are getting screwed themselves by a system that seems to penalize them for trying to plan far in advance. It's just plain nutty to newbies who are more in tune with airline pricing models.

What're you talking about here - generally rooms get more expensive the closer you get to the departure date.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

What're you talking about here - generally rooms get more expensive the closer you get to the departure date.

Ever since I found out how Amtrak works I've been able to save plenty of money by rechecking prices as the departure date gets closer. I even snagged a "deluxe" bedroom for only $180 on my last trip. It was overkill for one person but it was a far better deal than the roomette they were trying to sell for $240 or thereabouts. Amtrak gets the short end of the stick because I can hold multiple reservations on an almost full train and still keep looking for the best possible deal. Instead they should tie prices to availability and departure date and always resell a low-bucket cancellation at a high-bucket rate if it occurs close to the departure date. Even if a few rooms go empty I would assume they can make it up with the high-bucket sales and with full trains they should be able to do well over all.

 

[Ryan]

I think that you overestimate how common your situation is.

 

[the_traveler]

I never much liked the way airline seats are sold, but at least I could understand it once it was explained to me. Amtrak tickets, on the other hand, make even less sense to me the more I read about them.

You understand airline fare structures?

Please explain it to me! Especially how the guy sitting in the seat next to me paid $125 more for his ticket than I did - even though we bought our tickets the same day!

And why is (I'm making these numbers up) UA flight 171 from JFK to ORD $278, while US 4278 (operated by UA - meaning it's the same plane as UA171) has a ticket from JFK to ORD for $227?

I've heard that airline fares can change up to 200 times IN A DAY!

At least on Amtrak, you know that (for example) seats 1-50 will be all the same price - no matter if they get sold 11 months out or 6 months out. And then seats 51-95 will be the next higher fare. So it's possible that tomorrrow's train may only have 40 seats sold, but a train 8 months from now may have 68 seaats sold, Thus tomorrow's train will have a lower fare.

 

[jmbgeg]

I'll be honest here, I really don't understand how Amtrak prices their bedrooms. What kind of business logic sells me a "deluxe" bedroom for half the cost of a roomette? It just doesn't add up. I know people here understand how it works but I've yet to see anyone explain to me why it works this way. I never much liked the way airline seats are sold, but at least I could understand it once it was explained to me. Amtrak tickets, on the other hand, make even less sense to me the more I read about them.

Where in the world do you find bedrooms at half thh price of roomettes? I just priced a one way Seattle to Chicago trip on the Empire Builder for 30 days from now for analysis purposes. The bedroom was $1652; 235% of the $702 roomette rate; more than double (both include rail fare for one). It is doubtful that even a low bucket bedroom would be half the price of a high bucket roomette.

 

[Ispolkom]

Strange things can happen, though rarely. A couple of years ago we booked a family bedroom from St. Paul to Portland (yeah, I know, what are the chances of finding one of those open), for less than the price of the open roomette. All bedrooms were booked.

Why? Three tour groups were on board, from Chicago to Shelby. They gave their members the choice of bedroom or roomette. The result was that those rooms were bid up, leaving us to enjoy our spacious compartment for a relatively small fee.

I haven't seen that scenario again. I imagine that daxomni is led astray by his limited experience booking sleepers. (Though how he or she imagines airline pricing as rational is beyond me.)

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Where in the world do you find bedrooms at half thh price of roomettes?

SAS > ELP in my case. Even though it's not half the cost, $180 for a deluxe bedroom versus a $240 roomette is a pretty bizarre pricing scheme. I also managed to get a family bedroom for substantially less than the offered rate for the roomette two trips prior to that. And these are extremely full trains just as you'd expect. Don't ask me to explain it because I honestly can't. I just check the prices periodically and then rebook at the lower fares when they become available. Since I can hold multiple reservations on the same train there's virtually no chance of getting burned. Unless I'm somehow missing something?

 

[zephyr17]

A couple of years ago I got a roomette between Seattle and Chicago for less than coach seats. There was a low bucket roomette, and sleepers are always at the lowest rail bucket. The coaches were nearly sold out, and were at their high bucket.