Hoosier State goes from Amtrak to Corridor Capital

[Rob Creighton]

Indianapolis actually generates significant income from conventions and tourism and Visit Indy, their convention and tourism bureau, actively works hard to generate tourism and conventions to Indy. That said, with an 11:50 PM arrival in Indy, how much can they promote that? While what passes for the Indy train station is more or less downtown near hotels, who wants to mess with that kind of late arrival if you've got a convention the next day, or you're just showing up for a visit? (And downtown Indy isn't really "hopping" at midnight anyway, which might make arriving there that late a little odd? At least I felt that way stepping out of my hotel at Midnight for a smoke.)

The 5AM departure for Chicago, while a little early, makes sense, because you CAN spend the day there-- and the reality is most of the Indiana cities served on the return late afternoon trip -- while scheduled later than ideal, aren't so late that it's completely unattractive to do Chicago as a day trip. Especially if you're going to see Navy Pier, do some shopping at Water Tower or State Street, hit Lincoln Park Zoo, eat some deep dish, that sort of thing. (although, like I've said in a couple of other posts, if you're traveling to the outlying suburbs or neighborhoods--it becomes debatable if you could truly do that as a day trip.) There's certainly a benefit for the residents of Indiana to use the service to get to Chicago for pleasure or business. There's a benefit to Purdue students and University students who go to school in Indy or Chicago too.

From an Indiana tourism viewpoint, or Indianapolis tourism viewpoint -- the train runs too late to benefit tourism.. And most towns, with the exception of Lafayette and Indianapolis... really, there isn't much to drive tourism for those cities. So if you're asking cities to pay the freight, it has to be more of an expense the city wants to put money into because it benefits their citizens, and they HAVE the money and desire to do that. In a corridor where you can go between the two cities in 4 or 41/2 hours in a car... which most people do... I'm not sure the desire is there.

 

[neroden]

So the service needs to be better in order for Indianapolis to support it, but Indianapolis needs to support it for it to be better? Other cities have made the leap of faith....

 

[Railroad Bill]

We drove from our home in Ohio to Indianapolis. Did the art museums, stayed overnight, left the next morning on the Hoosier State for a ride to Chicago. Did sites of Chicago: museums, Navy Pier, riding the ELs, lunch and hopped back on the Hoosier State southbound, back to hotel in Indy that night, and drove home the next day. A weekend in Indy and Chicago and a nice train ride to boot.

 

[andersone]

Indy downtown USED to be great. I remember talking to Koko Taylor in between sets for a whole evening,,, Now the 1G (big ten) lives there, and the She Who Must Be Obeyed and I frequently drove over there to watch NCAA BB tournaments,,,, downtown had taken the old train station and turned it into a wonderful place, including a (Holiday Inn? ) that had sleepers,,, but the last time we were there that was all history,,,,,

Arrival and departure times are horrible for us, so we just make the three and a half hour drive while the Cardinal leaves South Portsmouth at 10:50 pm and arrives in Indy at 5 am,,, reversed pretty much coming back. ... but twice as long as the drive,,,,,

.

 

[MrFSS]

The HI Crown Plaza is still there. Use to have a great set of restaurants, etc in the old train station, but they are gone Plenty of other ploaces to eat within a few blocks of the current station facilities.

 

[cirdan]

I agree that cities should have nothing to do with funding intercity services. States, however, should be encouraged to do so. Section 209 actually rewards the states who have boosted passenger service for a long time. States that have no interest in local services shouldn't receive them free of charge, if other states are willing to put their money where their mouths are. Indiana's attempt to extort money from the on-line cities is backwards thinking.

Wholly agreed.
Trying to make Section 209 the devil in all this is highly misguided and counter-productive IMHO. Section 209 is not about national system. It is about regional systems. Similar mechanisms have been put in places like Germany and France too.

Only that a train covering the distance of the Hoosier State would probably be considered LD in France or Germany. The trains the regions support are much more local.

 

[jis]

That is because their regions are setup as departments, which are geographically smaller, given of course that all of France is the size of a good sized US State. That does not negate the basic nature of the organizational structure. Hoosier State in most ways is similar to a Vermonter, or an Empire Service, a Pennsylvanian/Keystone or even Virginia Service.

Having said that, of course every state has considerable freedom in how they set up their own shop. The fact that they think each individual town and village on the route should fund it appears to be just a way of doing passive pushback. Afterall that is not how they manage their state highways. The whole setup seemed to be an attempt by the DOT to get something going with close to zero support from the legislature and the governor, and it apparently just fell flat on its face.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

. . . The whole setup seemed to be an attempt by the DOT to get something going

with close to zero support from the legislature and the governor, and it apparently

just fell flat on its face.

I read somewhere that the State of Indiana paid half the shortfall on

condition that the cities put up the other half. The cities did put up

half the money for one year, probably more than the state politicians

had expected them to do. Now Indianapolis brings down the house

of cards, no doubt greatly pleasing the haters in the state government.

If the silly set-up had held up for another two or three years, then

a daily Cardinal would have completely changed the game.

If we had any serious money coming from the feds -- ah, those were

the days, LOL -- then $200 million to extend passing sidings etc would

cut 30 minutes out of the trip time and give the Hoosier State competitive

trip times, and more frequencies with better departure and arrival times.

Instead we're getting the haters' dream: a three-days-a-week long

distance train that is the second biggest loser measured loss per

passenger paired with a state-supported (or un-supported) train

that features slow average speeds, terrible arrival and departure times,

worn cars, sad stations. Altogether it's a perfect piece of evidence for

the haters claim that government can't do anything right.

 

[jis]

And yet there are other governments around that seem to be doing quite a bit that is right in many parts of the US. Also it is not as if the private industry is doing much better yet in the arena of regularly scheduled commercial passenger rail service. Much talk relatively little action so far.

 

[MikefromCrete]

. . . The whole setup seemed to be an attempt by the DOT to get something going

with close to zero support from the legislature and the governor, and it apparently

just fell flat on its face.

I read somewhere that the State of Indiana paid half the shortfall on

condition that the cities put up the other half. The cities did put up

half the money for one year, probably more than the state politicians

had expected them to do. Now Indianapolis brings down the house

of cards, no doubt greatly pleasing the haters in the state government.

If the silly set-up had held up for another two or three years, then

a daily Cardinal would have completely changed the game.

If we had any serious money coming from the feds -- ah, those were

the days, LOL -- then $200 million to extend passing sidings etc would

cut 30 minutes out of the trip time and give the Hoosier State competitive

trip times, and more frequencies with better departure and arrival times.

Instead we're getting the haters' dream: a three-days-a-week long

distance train that is the second biggest loser measured loss per

passenger paired with a state-supported (or un-supported) train

that features slow average speeds, terrible arrival and departure times,

worn cars, sad stations. Altogether it's a perfect piece of evidence for

the haters claim that government can't do anything right.

What makes you think Indiana would accept federal money for any kind of upgrade? Look at Indianapolis. No signs of any rail transit planning.

 

[ruck]

The mayor of Lafayette, Tony Roswarski, mentioned the Hoosier State today in his monthly Ask The Mayor (today's program isn't up yet). Specifically he said that he's more hopeful just in the last few days with things going on. Specifically he mentioned that Indy may pay through January, obviously the problem is still there but it's better than nothing. He mentioned Corridor Capital has a contract with a local Indy deli to provide food. The root of the issue is that the local communities can't support the train for forever, and that basically they are paying for it till INDOT starts contributing.

So not great, but better than an a direct it's shutting down in October.

 

[neroden]

There are two special ringfenced state funds set up to support rail service in Indiana; currently all of the money from both of them goes to the South Shore Line. I wonder if they could get funding from one or both of 'em.

 

[CHamilton]

Indianapolis to fund Amtrak Hoosier State rail line through January

INDIANAPOLIS (Aug. 20, 2014) – Indianapolis and several other communities will continue to fund the Amtrak Hoosier State Line through January.
The Department of Public Works confirmed the agreement Wednesday with the Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT).

 

[Railroad Bill]

Indianapolis to fund Amtrak Hoosier State rail line through January

INDIANAPOLIS (Aug. 20, 2014) – Indianapolis and several other communities will continue to fund the Amtrak Hoosier State Line through January.
The Department of Public Works confirmed the agreement Wednesday with the Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT).

Good news, Charlie

 

[William W.]

Good news. I still think though that the only way that the HS will be viable in the long-term is if these things happen:

1. Track improvements (double tracking, elimination of speed restrictions, and replacement of jointed rail).

2. A food service car is needed.

3. The HS needs to be separated from the Cardinal. That way, it can have a much more flexible schedule, and doesn't have to wait for a late 51.

The end goal needs to be a 3.5-4 hour travel time, in both directions. It has to be able to compete with the IND-CHI intercity bus services.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The Hoosier State doesn't have to wait for the Cardinal since it runs on the days the Cardinal doesn't.

Improvements to CSX tracks in Indiana and gaining a faster entrance to Chicago are key to improving the train's performance. The new entrance to Chicago is pretty easy -- stay on CN, ex-GTW, to Harvey, then north on CN, ex-IC, using the same route as CONO, Illini, Saluki. Eventually the Grand Crossing project will eliminate backup at Union Station. Improving the CSX, ex-Monon, will be costly since the line isn't even signaled. Good luck getting Indiana to do that.

 

[William W.]

Technically, it does. On the days that the Cardinal runs, the HS's cars are attached to the back of the Cardinal. If the Hoosier state could become it's own train 7 days a week, that would help the situation a lot, IMO.

 

[Daniel]

So with Corridor Capital taking over, would the trains not be considered "Amtrak" trains in terms of appearing in Amtrak timetables/maps and on train logos? How would this work?

 

[William W.]

It would be owned and operated by INDOT/ Corridor Capital, but would still be ticketed by Amtrak, and would still technically be part of the Amtrak system (Just as Amtrak California and Cascades are).

 

[MrFSS]

Indianapolis plans to spend $3.7 million to fix pressing structural problems at historic Union Station, and architects say the building could use another $3.8 million in improvements.



The Department of Metropolitan Development hopes to tap the downtown tax increment financing (TIF) fund for the emergency work. A source of funding for the extra upgrades hasn't been identified, but DMD Director Adam Thies said the city could apply for federal grants.

Thies also is considering the possibility of selling the Greyhound and Amtrak terminal. It's the one section of the building that could be carved off into a separate parcel, he said.

Full story HERE:

 

[lepearso]

Question: if the Cardinal / HS should get rerouted via CN on the old IC route, would it end up avoiding Dyer and instead serving Homewood, IL?

 

[MikefromCrete]

Question: if the Cardinal / HS should get rerouted via CN on the old IC route, would it end up avoiding Dyer and instead serving Homewood, IL?

No, it would still serve Dyer. Homewood is south of the junction between the IC and GTW at Harvey.

 

[neroden]

Indianapolis is now being completely ridiculous. Nobody wants to buy the Amtrak/Greyhound station from them. Amtrak won't. Greyhound won't. Why would anyone else?

Geez, the situation in Indiana is sad and pathetic.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

. . . The whole setup seemed to be an attempt by the DOT to get something going

with close to zero support from the legislature and the governor, and it apparently

just fell flat on its face.

I read somewhere that the State of Indiana paid half the shortfall on

condition that the cities put up the other half. . . .

If we had any serious money coming from the feds -- ah, those were

the days, LOL -- then $200 million to extend passing sidings etc would

cut 30 minutes out of the trip time and give the Hoosier State competitive

schedules, and more frequencies with better departure and arrival times.

. . .

What makes you think Indiana would accept federal money for any kind of upgrade? Look at Indianapolis. No signs of any rail transit planning.

Railway Age

Monday, June 02, 2014 Amtrak, the Federal Railroad Administration, Norfolk Southern, and the Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) have embarked on constructing the $71.4 million Indiana Gateway project, which will upgrade the right-of-way between Porter, Ind., and the Illinois state line shared by Amtrak and NS trains.

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/intercity/amtrak-fra-ns-indot-kick-off-71-million-upgrade-project.htm

 

[neroden]

There seems to be some slow progress on the long-delayed West Lake Corridor (South Shore Line to Dyer and later Lowell) as well, with a lot of local monetary commitments. (Representative Pete Visclosky has been pushing it hard for a long time.) The interesting thing about this for the Hoosier State is, of course, the route it follows.